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What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar?

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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#21 » by JonathanJoseph » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:36 am

dlts20 wrote:I agree and disagree. I agree on some of the things you said but that is easily fixed with coaching. Mike D'Antoni is going to have Wall & the screeners running it a certain way in camp. He's not going to allow them to not use the pick right or not set the pick right. Its coaching. Its great to have smart players with high IQ but alot of them arent. You can also tell that some of it was Flip's design. Again, even Gil was playing it that way when he didnt with Eddie Jordan.

If he's with D'Antoni, SVG, Adelman, or anyone like that then they are going to teach them how to run it the right way, just like I believe that a guy like Pop is not going to let NY play the way he does without either getting him to play right or benching him. There is no way that you can watch film over & over and McGee still not set a pick at all when Flip was here unless Flip was ok with that. Those other coaches wont be because the play wont be nearly as successful. Flip didnt care because he wanted it more about the curls and stuff anyways


This remains the crux of the Wall discussion. It's unclear to me whether the point you are making is legitimate.

It's one thing to suggest that different offenses might bring out the best in Wall (which I would question as well), but the idea that Flip Saunders and/or Randy Witman don't know how to teach a proper way to both set and set up a pick is just not correct. It's a fundamental aspect of basketball and many, many players are able to master this by the high school level or before. This does not require NBA talent or hall of fame coaching.

There's a repeated sentiment of "Wall just needs better coaching", or "just needs to learn how to change speeds" or "just needs to learn how to use picks better" when the real question should be, are those things you learn or things you are born with?
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#22 » by tontoz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:54 am

The pick and roll issue is simple. Other teams can defend the pick and roll by letting the guy guarding Wall go under the screen. Until Wall can consistently make open jumpers teams will keep going under the screen.

Frankly i am not conviced that running picks for Wall is the best strategy right now. He can generally beat his man off the dribble pretty easily without a pick.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#23 » by tontoz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:03 am

Greg Monroe on stealing John Wall's dunk: "It was just a joke. He got another shot at it. The game was over so it wasn't a big deal ... I thought about it right when I did it. It was real quick. I was thinking about letting him go but then ... [shoulder shrug]."





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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#24 » by ST21 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:10 am

deadddd @ that gif tontoz

lmao wow
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#25 » by DallasShalDune » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:17 am

Being a Wizards fan continues to be an embarrassment. ;-)
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#26 » by dlts20 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:20 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:
dlts20 wrote:I agree and disagree. I agree on some of the things you said but that is easily fixed with coaching. Mike D'Antoni is going to have Wall & the screeners running it a certain way in camp. He's not going to allow them to not use the pick right or not set the pick right. Its coaching. Its great to have smart players with high IQ but alot of them arent. You can also tell that some of it was Flip's design. Again, even Gil was playing it that way when he didnt with Eddie Jordan.

If he's with D'Antoni, SVG, Adelman, or anyone like that then they are going to teach them how to run it the right way, just like I believe that a guy like Pop is not going to let NY play the way he does without either getting him to play right or benching him. There is no way that you can watch film over & over and McGee still not set a pick at all when Flip was here unless Flip was ok with that. Those other coaches wont be because the play wont be nearly as successful. Flip didnt care because he wanted it more about the curls and stuff anyways


This remains the crux of the Wall discussion. It's unclear to me whether the point you are making is legitimate.

It's one thing to suggest that different offenses might bring out the best in Wall (which I would question as well), but the idea that Flip Saunders and/or Randy Witman don't know how to teach a proper way to both set and set up a pick is just not correct. It's a fundamental aspect of basketball and many, many players are able to master this by the high school level or before. This does not require NBA talent or hall of fame coaching.

There's a repeated sentiment of "Wall just needs better coaching", or "just needs to learn how to change speeds" or "just needs to learn how to use picks better" when the real question should be, are those things you learn or things you are born with?

now see, I totally disagree with that. Its not abuot Flip & Witt not knowing the proper way to set a screen. Its about what the system is and what it requires. They either dont run it or they run it different then most teams. When Flip got here and Gil was our PG, I made a ton of threads about it. We still had Wood then. The same Gil & Wood that made a field day with EJ on those plays. Getting real tight and Gil spring boarding off.

Gil was injuried now but it had nothing to do with the way we were running it. On every single play like that in Flip's system, Gil was going parallel. Never once going towards the rim. He didnt even look to score most times. It was just about setting up the next move which was a simple pass back or passing to another guy off the curl. The only shot Gil or Foye could get was a long pull up J off the pick. Its that system.

Im telling you if he's in NY right now he looks night & day. If he's with just about any other team or any other system. Its not made for the PG to be great at attacking the rim. Its about Billups & Cassell shooting all J's, long or mid range, and passing to guys off curls and so on. Thats what the system is based on and that doesnt benefit Wall at all.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#27 » by dlts20 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:25 am

tontoz wrote:The pick and roll issue is simple. Other teams can defend the pick and roll by letting the guy guarding Wall go under the screen. Until Wall can consistently make open jumpers teams will keep going under the screen.

Frankly i am not conviced that running picks for Wall is the best strategy right now. He can generally beat his man off the dribble pretty easily without a pick.

the J will definnitely help but thats not the biggest problem at all. Ive watched it closely and teams dont always go under the screen on Wall and he still cant blow by the initial defender. We dont use it or run it right. Then, alot of teams run the high screen way out. We use to run it at times 4 or 5 feet behind the 3pt line. When we played the Bulls, they kept picking Wall way out past the 3pt line which gives Rose a running start against our bigs. The same way SVG use to do with Wade.

Even if guys go under the screen, that creates seperation. So much so that you dont need to shoot a J all the time because your now on the move and can go either direction. The defender is on his heels. Thats how Rondo also kills cats with no J. Our system just doesnt fit Wall or our team
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#28 » by JonathanJoseph » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:59 am

dlts20 wrote:now see, I totally disagree with that. Its not abuot Flip & Witt not knowing the proper way to set a screen. Its about what the system is and what it requires. They either dont run it or they run it different then most teams. When Flip got here and Gil was our PG, I made a ton of threads about it. We still had Wood then. The same Gil & Wood that made a field day with EJ on those plays. Getting real tight and Gil spring boarding off.

Gil was injuried now but it had nothing to do with the way we were running it. On every single play like that in Flip's system, Gil was going parallel. Never once going towards the rim. He didnt even look to score most times. It was just about setting up the next move which was a simple pass back or passing to another guy off the curl. The only shot Gil or Foye could get was a long pull up J off the pick. Its that system.

Im telling you if he's in NY right now he looks night & day. If he's with just about any other team or any other system. Its not made for the PG to be great at attacking the rim. Its about Billups & Cassell shooting all J's, long or mid range, and passing to guys off curls and so on. Thats what the system is based on and that doesnt benefit Wall at all.


Maybe.

I've seen a marked increase in high pick n rolls run since Wittman took over, and there are still plenty of examples where I see Wall not understanding how to optimize the outcome.

While I would agree that Flip's cerebral approach to offense didn't suit Wall optimally, I'm not sure what that says about Wall. Flip has never had a problem with PGs before Wall, and Wall looked flat out bad in that system. So while I agree that Wall would have looked better in offenses that focus on him attacking the rim I'm more concerned that Wall was unable to mentally pick up an offense that had been successfully run by everyone from Chauncey Billiups to TRoy Hudson to headcases like Stephon Marbury.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#29 » by dlts20 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:43 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:
dlts20 wrote:now see, I totally disagree with that. Its not abuot Flip & Witt not knowing the proper way to set a screen. Its about what the system is and what it requires. They either dont run it or they run it different then most teams. When Flip got here and Gil was our PG, I made a ton of threads about it. We still had Wood then. The same Gil & Wood that made a field day with EJ on those plays. Getting real tight and Gil spring boarding off.

Gil was injuried now but it had nothing to do with the way we were running it. On every single play like that in Flip's system, Gil was going parallel. Never once going towards the rim. He didnt even look to score most times. It was just about setting up the next move which was a simple pass back or passing to another guy off the curl. The only shot Gil or Foye could get was a long pull up J off the pick. Its that system.

Im telling you if he's in NY right now he looks night & day. If he's with just about any other team or any other system. Its not made for the PG to be great at attacking the rim. Its about Billups & Cassell shooting all J's, long or mid range, and passing to guys off curls and so on. Thats what the system is based on and that doesnt benefit Wall at all.


Maybe.

I've seen a marked increase in high pick n rolls run since Wittman took over, and there are still plenty of examples where I see Wall not understanding how to optimize the outcome.

While I would agree that Flip's cerebral approach to offense didn't suit Wall optimally, I'm not sure what that says about Wall. Flip has never had a problem with PGs before Wall, and Wall looked flat out bad in that system. So while I agree that Wall would have looked better in offenses that focus on him attacking the rim I'm more concerned that Wall was unable to mentally pick up an offense that had been successfully run by everyone from Chauncey Billiups to TRoy Hudson to headcases like Stephon Marbury.

well in fairness to Wall, its not like he's sucked. If the 2nd year Blake Griffin wasnt around or wasnt allowed to get the award then Wall wouldve won the ROY by a mile and he had a good rookie season. This year he sucked at the start but he's still be pretty darn good over the last 25 games or so.

Its just hard to judge him because I dont think the system is perfect for him and I think our team sucks. I mean, clearly he's been let down a ton by our guys, espically people like Dray & NY. Dray is a Captain, has all the talent in the world, and clearly didnt do crap all offseason. Thats so dissapointing. If he plays like the Dray that was there after the trade then Wall looks alot better. NY forgot everything he did last year, and is now back to the same NY that played any other year. Shard is the 2nd highest player in the league and is horrible. McGee has been McGee.

Wall shouldnt get cut any slack because he should be better. No doubt about that. System or not, he hasnt played as well as he shouldve, teammates or not but still, these guys have let him down. I guess we wont know fully til next year depending on the coach & teammates but I still believe in him. He plays harder then anyone in the NBA when he wants to and hates to lose. I can always live with that, moreso then the other guys we have who seem mad selfish and dont try hard 99% of the time
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#30 » by tontoz » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:35 pm

WAll is averaging 18/8.5 shooting 48% in Feb under Wittman. How much more can we expect given the poor players around him?
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#31 » by dlts20 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:29 pm

tontoz wrote:WAll is averaging 18/8.5 shooting 48% in Feb under Wittman. How much more can we expect given the poor players around him?

this is mad true and thats why I take up for him alot but I also think he's talented enough that with the right coach & right system, that he could carry even a bad time to more wins or at the very least, put up monster stats on a bad team.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#32 » by JonathanJoseph » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 am

dlts20 wrote:
tontoz wrote:WAll is averaging 18/8.5 shooting 48% in Feb under Wittman. How much more can we expect given the poor players around him?

this is mad true and thats why I take up for him alot but I also think he's talented enough that with the right coach & right system, that he could carry even a bad time to more wins or at the very least, put up monster stats on a bad team.


I don't think anyone disputes the numbers, but similar to Tyreke Evans and Carmelo Anthony, it seems like their teams play better without them.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#33 » by Benjammin » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:35 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:
dlts20 wrote:
tontoz wrote:WAll is averaging 18/8.5 shooting 48% in Feb under Wittman. How much more can we expect given the poor players around him?

this is mad true and thats why I take up for him alot but I also think he's talented enough that with the right coach & right system, that he could carry even a bad time to more wins or at the very least, put up monster stats on a bad team.


I don't think anyone disputes the numbers, but similar to Tyreke Evans and Carmelo Anthony, it seems like their teams play better without them.


Oh, the sweet irony...
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#34 » by dlts20 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:07 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:
dlts20 wrote:
tontoz wrote:WAll is averaging 18/8.5 shooting 48% in Feb under Wittman. How much more can we expect given the poor players around him?

this is mad true and thats why I take up for him alot but I also think he's talented enough that with the right coach & right system, that he could carry even a bad time to more wins or at the very least, put up monster stats on a bad team.


I don't think anyone disputes the numbers, but similar to Tyreke Evans and Carmelo Anthony, it seems like their teams play better without them.

Nah. He's a true PG so it would be different and those guys are selfish ball stoppers. Wall wouldnt be that. His numbers would be legit and corraspond to wins
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#35 » by God Squad » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:03 am

tontoz wrote:Greg Monroe on stealing John Wall's dunk: "It was just a joke. He got another shot at it. The game was over so it wasn't a big deal ... I thought about it right when I did it. It was real quick. I was thinking about letting him go but then ... [shoulder shrug]."





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soo jokes lol
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#36 » by TheKingOfVa360 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:42 pm

tontoz wrote:WAll is averaging 18/8.5 shooting 48% in Feb under Wittman. How much more can we expect given the poor players around him?



I agree, it isn't enough talent around him
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#37 » by theboomking » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:32 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:While I would agree that Flip's cerebral approach to offense didn't suit Wall optimally, I'm not sure what that says about Wall. Flip has never had a problem with PGs before Wall, and Wall looked flat out bad in that system. So while I agree that Wall would have looked better in offenses that focus on him attacking the rim I'm more concerned that Wall was unable to mentally pick up an offense that had been successfully run by everyone from Chauncey Billiups to TRoy Hudson to headcases like Stephon Marbury.


We are of a like mind! I keep thinking what if JJ was posting on a less cerebral board that didn't expose his weaknesses as much. Would his performance be better? What does that say about JJ?

Off topic, I thought Monroe's prank was a little funny, and it looked like Wall did too. He was smiling and laughing.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#38 » by theboomking » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:36 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=wMzpsC6lYV0[/youtube]
I might have missed it, but I didn't see that one posted.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#39 » by Illuminaire » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:45 am

As far as we know, Flip didn't dumb down the offense because Wall couldn't run it. There's an entire roster full of guys who have to know where to be, when to cut, and what to do once they receive the ball.
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Re: What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar? 

Post#40 » by tontoz » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:47 am

theboomking wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:While I would agree that Flip's cerebral approach to offense didn't suit Wall optimally, I'm not sure what that says about Wall. Flip has never had a problem with PGs before Wall, and Wall looked flat out bad in that system. So while I agree that Wall would have looked better in offenses that focus on him attacking the rim I'm more concerned that Wall was unable to mentally pick up an offense that had been successfully run by everyone from Chauncey Billiups to TRoy Hudson to headcases like Stephon Marbury.


We are of a like mind! I keep thinking what if JJ was posting on a less cerebral board that didn't expose his weaknesses as much. Would his performance be better? What does that say about JJ?

Off topic, I thought Monroe's prank was a little funny, and it looked like Wall did too. He was smiling and laughing.



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I literally lol'd on that one.
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