What was wrong with John Wall tonight at allstar?

[TGW]

CCJ, do you agree and stand by that link you posted? Since that's the basis of my beef with what you're arguing (and not your opinion—you're entitled to it), I honestly want to know if you actually think it's an accurate indicator of the point you're trying to prove.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

In Forrest Gump there was a scene where he stopped running.

He started running and dude ran and ran and ran. And then he stopped.

Look. Whatever the hell I said just forget it. If you think I am a liar I no longer give a damn. If you think I hate Wall. Same thing. If you think being supportive of Wall is great, fine. If you think hating Cousins is fine. Great.

I am officially done talking about Wall. That is it.

[tontoz]

CCJ, i can't judge college talent nearly as well as you. But i do have a decent memory and i will put it to use at times when someone tries to make a bogus argument and/or starts throwing around personal insults like confetti.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

My excessive posts, predictions, reminding folks is me. I really don't like to embarrass anyone and there is far too much to talk about other than one another. A lot of the time I find myself seeing things differently than most. I hated Flip's coaching with a passion pretty early on. I went on and on and even back and forth, contradicting myself on Flip. I guess that is annoying.

Nobody's opinion is anything but an opinion. Sorry if I disrespect any of you. I am not even aware of anyone I have tried to put down, but I will apologize any way.

[fugop]

There were, in fact, plenty of people calling Wall a bust back a month or so ago. It was overheated rhetoric from impatient fans of a terrible team.

General Board: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1150197

Chaos Revenant: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130#p29914891
WizD: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130&start=15#p29942268
ST21: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1150036&start=240#p29794312

Not to mention countless posts from JonathanJoseph and numerous posts from others expressing concern about the likelihood that Wall realizes his potential.

In a season like this, it's inevitable that people will be hot and cold on players. Young guys on bad teams can look terrible for extended stretches.

[JonathanJoseph]

JJ, I have absolutely no problem agreeing that the frequently doesn't mean always; and, Mack does better in half court than Wall fairly frequently. I respect disparate opinions and try to engage in intelligent debate. I do not respect childish, personal attacks, from close-minded, small-minded fools.

I also know that the single biggest idiot I have ever come across on this board is going to defend John Wall. NC for no class, and I will not even mention his name or post a quote or paste a jpg image.

I will flat out say I have no respect for you.

Is this directed at me?

If so, I'm lost.

[JonathanJoseph]

Here are the links, check for yourself.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112WAS.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1112/1112WAS1.HTM

The Wizards are scoring 4 more ppg when Wall plays.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11WAS1.HTM#onoff

and 2.1 ppg less when Mack plays.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11WAS3.HTM#onoff

So how can you look at those numbers and conclude that the half court offense is run better with Mack?

*smh*

Dude. You are changing the subject.

The question was Wall's on/off numbers and I provided links. Argue against it but don't change the subject.

[JonathanJoseph]

You don't get it at all. I posted I do like Wall now. Repeatedly said the past 15 or so games he's turned it around. Repeated pointed out this is really about an argument over my credibility and something only between tontoz and me. Repeatedly pointed out that most of these post are from the time frame when I questioned whether he was a bust. Repeatedly have clarified, quantified, and directly quoted.

If you get it, you got that I said Wall has played dramatically better recently, TGW.

tontoz asked if Wall was playing like a superstar NOW and I did answer his post. That is the present. I have opinions which are strong, but I do keep track of what is going on NOW.

I also said I am not backing down from what I said that started this in the first place.

No, I do get it...stop acting like a child. You don't like John Wall...just own up to it. Otherwise, you wouldn't have posted that horsedung of a link to try and prove a [biased] point. And just because you wrote "I like John Wall" after posting it doesn't mean a thing. If you're worried about credibility (and I don't know why—people respect your opinion on this board), posting a link like that is NOT going to raise it.

If I used those numbers to show that NDyaie and Turiaf were better than Cousins, I guarantee you would have a problem with that. Stop trying to hide your bias.

Newsflash. Every poster has a bias. In fact, every single human being has a bias.

Now, the fact that you don't like what another posted believes (or in your terms, is biased towards) should not give you license to be condescending.

That's what the best posters do, express their opinions and then back them up with supporting facts and other comments/opinions. It's only "horsedung" because you don't like what it said, and that's your bias.

[JonathanJoseph]

There were, in fact, plenty of people calling Wall a bust back a month or so ago. It was overheated rhetoric from impatient fans of a terrible team.

General Board: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1150197

Chaos Revenant: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130#p29914891
WizD: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130&start=15#p29942268
ST21: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1150036&start=240#p29794312

Not to mention countless posts from JonathanJoseph and numerous posts from others expressing concern about the likelihood that Wall realizes his potential.

In a season like this, it's inevitable that people will be hot and cold on players. Young guys on bad teams can look terrible for extended stretches.

And after tonight's "fools gold" performance, I might start using the "bust" term again.

Especially considering the way Wall played earlier in the year, the one's insisting that they were 100% sure he wasn't a bust are the ones who were letting their "homer" opinions get in the way of an honest discussion.

[TGW]

Newsflash. Every poster has a bias. In fact, every single human being has a bias.

Now, the fact that you don't like what another posted believes (or in your terms, is biased towards) should not give you license to be condescending.

That's what the best posters do, express their opinions and then back them up with supporting facts and other comments/opinions. It's only "horsedung" because you don't like what it said, and that's your bias.

Well, just for the record, you're nowhere close to being one of the best posters....more like that irritating dork in class that no one likes. But that's neither here or there.

And CCJ didn't back his opinion with any sort of "fact" when he posted that link. I can post a link showing that Jeff Foster has a higher 3-point percentage than Kobe Bryant...does that make it a fact that Foster is a better 3-point shooter than Kobe? That's what I thought.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What opinion didn't I back with a fact, TGW?

That Wall played better since February? (I did).
That others doubted Wall? Okay, I said thought he was a bust, but the point is others doubted him seriously until very recently. I posted a bunch of links from different articles.

What I said was I didn't see Wall play better until recently. tontoz said I had an agenda and didn't like Wall. tontoz pulled up a couple links from last year where I did say Wall had played better--on more than one occasion. He successfully disproved what I said. He accused me of lying earlier. He posted a JPG and basically clowned me. For a while I put him on ignore. I truly didn't remember saying Wall would be a future superstar in 3 years--but I did say it back then. But still, that does NOTHING to take away from Wall's performance through the first 6 and actually, first 15 or so games this year. I did think he was a bust, perhaps. I recall several disparaging posts and even some trade Wall ideas from this forum.

For yout, TGW, to say I showed no facts, I really don't know what you're talking about.

I said Wall is playing well now. Said I like him now because he's playing dramatically better.

About the only thing near-dsparaging is I said at times Mack runs halfcourt better because IMO he's got an outside shot and that allows the floor spacing to be better. Others convert. Also, Shelvin is less turnover-prone. He can't do but so much but tends to play pretty mistake-free ball. That is why at times he's better running the team in halfcourt than Wall.

Today, Wall played probably his best game as a Wizard. He dominated defensively and offensively against Orlando. He's hitting outside shots, consistently.

As for me and facts and all that stuff, what I believe about you, TGW, is you're late to the argument and piling on and putting two cents in just for the hell of it. I really don't know where you stand on most things and I think you might as well leave me alone. You aren't going to change me and I don't think it is a worthwhile endeavor to try.

You said I don't like Wall. You misread and then put words in my mouth and even said I'm acting like a child. You have harsh words for JonathanJoseph and put me down in your response to him.

Honestly, I think it is really hard to discuss issues with a person who can't help but attack people. You have done that to me, TGW. I haven't called you childish. I haven't told you what you're thinking. I haven't said what you proved or disproved. I'm not really trying to make a point against you one way or another.

Just want you to know that I disagree with your interpretation of what I have said or not said.

You seem to want to stay in argue mode. tontoz said some very reasonable criticisms of me. i have no problem with him now.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

There were, in fact, plenty of people calling Wall a bust back a month or so ago. It was overheated rhetoric from impatient fans of a terrible team.

General Board: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1150197

Chaos Revenant: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130#p29914891
WizD: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1152130&start=15#p29942268
ST21: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1150036&start=240#p29794312

Not to mention countless posts from JonathanJoseph and numerous posts from others expressing concern about the likelihood that Wall realizes his potential.

In a season like this, it's inevitable that people will be hot and cold on players. Young guys on bad teams can look terrible for extended stretches.

tontoz,this is what I said when all of this started. Others were down on Wall.

[tontoz]

Did you actually read those links?

[Zonkerbl]

I am here when Cousins shoots poorly and I posted following the Wizards loss to Sacramento.

His TS is mighty low. His PER and his WS and WS/48 are higher than Wall's. I think Wall is obviously far better physically, Dat. Cousins leads the league in charges taken. Battier does things like that and he's not considered a team cancer--quite the opposite. He killed one coach, but did so along with Tyreke Evans playing as bad or worse.

Not to engage with you other than to say for all your posts where you repeatedly say Wall for Cousins and a pick is bad, I still disagree with you. You just can't say that with certainty IMO.

This long discussion about Cousins has me shaking my head trying to figure him out. It seems for stretches he just checks out mentally. I wonder what that's about. Could be it's his coach deliberately not calling plays for him when he's acting like an ass.

[Illuminaire]

The bust word is getting thrown around too recklessly. I think that's the source of many of the more bitter arguments going on right now.

General note to everyone: please don't use bust for a player who has already proven he can be a capable starter with flashes of greatness. Wall is beyond that. Disappointing? Not a franchise player? OK, that's still out there. Bust? That's just inflammatory language that disrespects the epic fail that is a true bust like Kwame.