Hawks/Bucks game thread.

[Ruhiel]

Ruhiel, I love ya, man, but sometimes your agenda blinds you.

I'm man enough to admit this.

And I have no earthly idea what "Ibaka" means.

Really? tall athletic man to man post defender and shot blocker

Aren't you impressed with 19 rebounds?
Yes. Even Against MIL.

Can you admit that Josh scored on 62.5% of his inside shots?

Don't you agree that 10 of 16 inside is great?

I have to rewatch the video. Did you count transition shots amongst those shots?

Did you realize it, almost, all came against doubleteams?

I'll have to go back and rewatch the 2nd half. I don't like the teams performance in 2nd half with Josh.
I distinctly remember this:
* last play of the half we post up Josh, Ilyasova forces him right, airball.

And Marvelous had 10 points on 9 shots, 2 steals and one very important block. His man had 2 points on 1 for 10 shooting.

Today is Friday. Carlos Delfino.
Tomorrow is Kevin Durant.

Today is Drew Gooden/Ilyasova.
Tomorrow is Serge Ibaka/Nick Collison.

Im not confident feeding Josh Smith 20 shots vs Ibaka and fanning him.
Im not confident Marvin's performance will jive tomorrow. I'm not confident that the bench will be able to come in and overcome Marvin's backup level production and skillset OR Hinrich's unraveling career.

I'm pretty confident we're facing a blowout tomorrow.

[parson]

Can you admit that Josh scored on 62.5% of his inside shots?

Don't you agree that 10 of 16 inside is great?

I have to rewatch the video. Did you count transition shots amongst those shots?

I can't remember more than 2 of those kind. If it makes you happy, we can talk about 8 of 14.

Did you realize it, almost, all came against doubleteams?

I'll have to go back and rewatch the 2nd half. I don't like the teams performance in 2nd half with Josh.
I distinctly remember this:
* last play of the half we post up Josh, Ilyasova forces him right, airball.

You waited for that ONE, didn't you? What about the others? He had many more good plays tonight. I've agreed with you - in principle - on Josh many times. Couldn't you see another Josh tonight? Certainly, we have to give him credit when he plays - for the most part - the way he should ... and can.

And Marvelous had 10 points on 9 shots, 2 steals and one very important block. His man had 2 points on 1 for 10 shooting.

Kevin Durant. Saturday.

When did we have a chance to sign Kevin Durant?

All I'm saying about Marvelous is he had a good night tonight and he held his man to a terrible night. You need to pick another time to blow hot against him.

[Skyhawk1]

At this point we'll take every win. Now, it's hard to watch the Hawks turning the ball over like that. Zaza is pathetic. The best team for the Hawks these days features Pargo, T- Mac, and Stackhouse... my friends we are in trouble.

[Baddy Chuck]

it is kinda sad to say for the Bucks, but even when Bogut is healthy... Gooden > Bogut

[Ruhiel]

"when did we have a chance to sign Durant?" "Marvelous had a good night."
"You need to pick another time to blow hot against him."

Parson are you really serious? Josh Smith proved me wrong on what exactly? Marvin is getting paid $8 million for what? You think Delfino is a starting caliber SF on a playoff team?

Tomorrow if everyone on this TEAM did the same thing. WE LOSE. PERIOD.

This isnt the regular season bowl. We're supposed to be aiming for championship! This is not acceptable championship construction (feed Josh and Marvin get outperformed by washed up McGrady).

Garnett is the player we need to pursue to have a championship defensive identity. Pistons model. We lock down teams to 80 points and win games. That includes Josh to SF and encouraging inside + transition play.

As constructed we are not a serious contender. Horford at C got injured and even healthy he isn't getting it done, Marvin is a continuous bust being outperformed by vet min and compared to 2nd rounders . I rather invest in other positions and go for the title.

Please Stop trying to spin it otherwise.

[Bucksfans1and2]

it is kinda sad to say for the Bucks, but even when Bogut is healthy... Gooden > Bogut

Are you high??

[Bucksfans1and2]

Thanks guys. Must lose for us here and you guys came through.

[Ruhiel]

it is kinda sad to say for the Bucks, but even when Bogut is healthy... Gooden > Bogut

Are you high??

he has a better jumper

[parson]

Oh and PS you guys seem like petty old men.

I did not see this earlier or I'd have answered it.

Sorry to "irrigate" your corn flakes. Of course, I could be really petty and continue to condemn a player (or players) even when he's playing a great game. I could just close my eyes and pretend he's NOT doing the good things he's doing.

[Ruhiel]

Oh and PS you guys seem like petty old men.

I did not see this earlier or I'd have answered it.

Sorry to "irrigate" your corn flakes. Of course, I could be really petty and continue to condemn a player (or players) even when he's playing a great game. I could just close my eyes and pretend he's NOT doing the good things he's doing.

Yes "Marvelous" played a great game. Maybe for him. But a garbage player he remains holding this franchise back.

Even when their biggest and most pressing need was most clear, the Hawks still decided to draft a player who played the very same position as the guy they took the year before in Josh Smith. Year after year, they see their need for a ball distributor in an offense that so often stalls and ends up in a Josh Smith 30 foot shot. Yet, year after year, they refuse to address the need that perhaps has kept them out of the elite in the Eastern Conference.

He had as good a matchup as Josh did and did absolutely nothing meriting the minutes and contract given to him.

When you have a team, you're supposed to start with either a point guard or a capable big man. The Hawks have done neither; quite the opposite in fact. They've filled out every other position on the team. It seems almost as if the Hawks are trying ACTIVELY to find a way around basketball principles that have stood for decades, in a new and brilliantly insidious way to torture the dedicated basketball fanatic and their own fan base.

They compacted the mistake of drafting Marvin Williams by giving him a long term contract.
Williams' is a natural small forward who can disguise himself as a power forward if you have a great point guard that can run the fast break (WHOOPS). However, in a conventional offense like Atlanta's, he's going to be a 3. Now, because he's at the 3, another highly paid natural small forward like Josh Smith has to play big at the power forward spot. This bumps Al Horford, a natural power forward, to the center position. So now you have an undersized lineup with 2 of your best players out of their natural spots. Congrats, Marvin. Your existence has effed up the Hawks' universe.

[parson]

Ruhiel, this game, you have been incapable of admitting that you are wrong about Josh Smith. My comment was in direct reference to the great game Josh played last night - a game YOU spent condemning him WHILE he was playing so well. In your response to my comment, Instead of giving him the credit he deserves, you choose to go after Marvin Williams. He was an ancillary point, at best. You chickened out and refused to comment when I tried to pin you down on Josh.

Earlier, you said "I'm man enough to admit this." when I remarked that "sometimes your agenda blinds you." To which I now respond, "Oh yeah? Show me."

Let me add some things up:
You hate Al Horford and would trade him at a drop of a hat. The Trade board has made that into a bit of a joke.
You hate Marvin Williams.
You hate Josh Smith.

What team's players DO you like?

[MaceCase]

He doesn't hate Josh at all, Parson. Josh is his tragic Greek hero doomed to failure because Al and Marvin prevent him from succeeding at his "natural position". For this reason he's blind to whatever successes Josh has a PF because in his mind it's simply impossible.

[Ruhiel]

* I see where I said "6'11 Ilyasova outrebounds Josh. smh baseless franchise" That was in reference to the 2nd or 3rd to last play when Ilyasova did rebound and score on a putback. Not the last play where we depended on Josh Smith's athleticism to block and make up for it.

* I said "HE IS NOT A GO TO SCORER." And that's hating? I watched the 1st quarter and he drew a foul in the post and then he drew a foul on a fake handoff. He crashed the board off a missed jumper for an assist.

He had 11 points in the 1st quarter and he barely got any touches. You, parson, said that we went away from him when we rarely went to him in the post.

In GSW Joe JOhnson was posting up and Smith was on the perimeter for long 2s for a few plays. David Lee figured to force him right and Josh attempted 2 jumpers and got caught under the basket once.

Now I'm about to watch the 2nd half.

But that amounts to a few things:
A) Josh Smith can't go right
B) Josh Smith can do the same thing and fail based on who's guarding him and fans will be PISSED

C) Marvin Williams. For those defending him and saying Josh Smith is standing in Marvin's way instead of the other way around. I have his lone post up touch missed one time he traveled. PURE COMEDY.
D) Sometimes LD puts Josh at the top of the key and Marvin in the corner. Why Marvin is not there is simple. He's not a triple threat to drive and pass, drive and shoot or even get his shot off in time if they give him space. LD Rather have Josh at the top and Marvin crashing.

I rather have another PF shooting and Josh inside crashing
E) Josh Smith's 1st quarter:
- post up Ilyasova = foul (1pt)
- transition alley oop (2pts)
- fake hand off, slashes left for layup and foul +MadeFT(3pt)
- long rebound Teague's miss over Ilyasova, crossover drive and layin (2pts)
- MIL missed jumper = transition layup + foul +MadeFT(3pts)

F) Josh Smith's jumpers are a function of limited alternatives (Marvin crashes rather than receive the ball or if he receives it passes to Josh to post up regardless of if Smith has the matchup advantage).
G) I will upload BOTH Marvin WIlliams touches from MIL. And Josh's. and let you all see what the difference.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWulzGBsrgo[/youtube]
You asked if I saw a different Josh. No. I see petty fans (and even pro analysts) griping and painting their own narrative based on whether he puts up a neato stat line.

"11 pts in the 1st quarter! Feed him all night" When he had FIVE pts in transition, TWO pts off of a offensive rebound and crossover for a layin, TWO pts on a sneaky slashing move, and a grand total of ONE point from posting up.

If my math is right Josh Smith is best in transition. ONE point in posting up.

If memory serves and that video above isn't lying their came a point where we forced it into JOsh vs David Lee and Lee took away his left hand. Jumper. And posting up Joe meant Josh at the top of the opposite key with the hopes he is a better triple threat than Marvin. Hiding Marvin in the corner.

Then you get mad when we force feed him vs Ibaka tonight and he jacks up jumpers.

My suggestion put someone who is a better triple threat than Josh and let Josh crash the boards.

Josh Smith isn't a go to scorer; wasn't the go to scorer last night; and still put up 24 points. And when he has bad nights (GSW) people want to trade him for a go to scorer.

But I'm a hater for not getting with the program. Sure.

Going back to your original statements:
ONE point posting up in the 1st quarter. Good grief. Surround the man with talent because as ELITE a HUSTLE PLAYER Josh Smith is...Marvin Williams hiding in the corner aint gonna cut it.

And yes I want to post Marvin Williams touches showing his Thabeet level coordination despite being 6'8 that led to a dark comedic travel. And his early post up touch before he went to go hide in the corner.

Again If you want more "good Josh" nights I suggest you get him a player who:
A) can help get him in transition (rebound)
B) take those elbow jumpers away from Josh and let Josh crash glass in the offense.

Because more often than not thats what Marvin does crash glass and let Josh shoot.
Because Marvin don't rebound for Josh and Marvin don't create shots for Josh to rebound.

[Ruhiel]

And Macecase thats really sad for you to try and pile on like that.

Why is it good Josh when he scores 30 points on Channing Frye? why does he need 22 shots for us to win?
Why is good Josh only good Josh when he scores 24points against Ryan Anderson and Lurch Ilyasova?

Where were you when Josh Smith, a small forward, was getting destroyed by Pau Gasol and beasted by Lamarcus Aldridge?

If Hawks can only get "GOOD Josh" against bad players then I think its time for a positional change. Because when we get "bad Josh" we also get "same old Marvin" and we lose.

[Ruhiel]

Also who said Marvin had a key block? That happened in the 1st quarter.

[MaceCase]

No, good Josh always appears when he's taking the majority of his shots when in the paint, passes the ball off and runs in transition rather than trying to set the offense up himself and generally gives a **** for more than 5 minutes in a quarter. Bad Josh always appears when he's trying to be Stephon Marbury in transition with a tricky dribble and hand off, when he's playing a game of horse to see what new angle of long jumper he can get off and is lolly gagging up the floor because he's pouting over a bad play he made or a call he thought a ref should have made. You'll notice none of this has anything to do with who he's playing with or against right? Just how he decides to approach the game, right?

Nope, super hypocrite Ruhiel flys in talking about others being "petty" or "piling on" when you've spent your entire stay on this board scapegoating everyone from Al to Marvin to Drew to Sund in EVERY single thread you decide to write a novel in rather than analyzing Josh's true deficiency.

Just look at you, you were bitching all throughout the game over Josh's matchup against the "6'11" Ilyasova then strapped on your tap shoes and danced away once people called you out on your stupidity. Now it's all "yea, Josh can do well against 6'11" Frye, 6'11" Ilyasova and 6'10" Ryan Andersen as a SF because they suck but what about 7' Pau and 6'11" Aldridge!" But what's the analytical excuse for his performance against the 6'9" defensive maven that is David Lee? Oh I know, your bull height and length analyticals couldn't cover you so you go after Marvin. Lol you got your excuse machine covered on all ends but the one that EVERYONE sees.

[Ruhiel]

For those people who want to see this team win and get the TEAM some help . I'll upload Josh Smith going left and going right. And how he was scoring, all his touches, vs Milwaukee.

Parson's point was after the 1st quarter feed Josh inside. Wait till I show the video and play-by-play you can go back and quote the shxt I said if you want to be bold about it.

I hope you're the type that can wait, but you seem like the type to get shots in early. Because I already said the video was coming.

Here's Josh Smith when David Lee decides Josh Smith is left handed.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMNIR0WGLng[/youtube]

For those who don't want to Tap dance around and BS the fact is that "wings" run the "wing" for easy transition points. Here's Al and Zaza helping Smith do that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309h7u56fw8[/youtube]

And here for the 100th time are some of Josh Smith's struggles scoring against size. Can you read? S-I-Z-E.

Bad Matchups - SF Josh Smith vs Size (PF Glen Davis)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKCqCeOVH4Y
Bad Matchups: SF Josh Smith vs PF Size (Scalabrine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obkac655JRM

But get your shots in now. Because the video should be up soon. THen you can point out play by play where I was wrong.