How bad do you want to rebuild? A summer trade

[MaceCase]

Dirk operates as a SF on offense while Marion operates as the PF whereas on defense Marion defends wings (he defended Wade in the Finals for the most part with Stevenson on Bron, let me know who's comfortable with Josh doing that) and Chandler/Haywood defend the top post threats letting Dirk hide on the weaker big. So essentially the Mavs work by having an elite wing that has made a career out of defending and scoring against 1s through 5s with nary a complaint, elite post and team defenders at C then a 7 foot SF at PF.

In fact, because of Marion's ability to be too quick for 4s it's why for the most part teams don't stick SFs on Dirk like they used to. This doesn't help Josh though because the idea that some have is that they want to get him away from being defended by PFs. Wamp wamp.

[Ruhiel]

The key to Josh Smith as a 3, I think everyone knows is transition. To up the tempo in transition but get good shots in halfcourt.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIRqlWBvYE[/youtube]
I doubt Okur can rebound and help us get that accomplished and I doubt his ability to shoot off the dribble in the halfcourt.

[Rip2137]

I saw someone name Artest up there but Ron is a better jumpshooter than Josh and is a MUCH better ball handler. not even close.

He's a much worse shooter than Josh, this season he's shooting 35% from the field and 24% from 3; he's been atrocious

So we are using a sample size of one half of the latest season? Because Josh has NEVER shot from 3 better than Artest for any of the other COMPLETE SEASONS that they have played. Artest is having a crap year, but there is no way you watched the guy basically play point forward in Houston, Sacramento and Indiana and say that Josh Smith can handle the ball or shoot the ball better than him.

I saw someone name Artest up there but Ron is a better jumpshooter than Josh and is a MUCH better ball handler. not even close.

He's a much worse shooter than Josh, this season he's shooting 35% from the field and 24% from 3; he's been atrocious

To pile on.

2010-2011 Champion Dallas Mavericks Top Five-Man Floor Units

Winningest lineups:

Code: Select all

Unit   W   L
 Barea-Terry-Marion-Nowitzki-Haywood   24     18 
 Kidd-Terry-Marion-Nowitzki-Chandler   26     12 

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011DAL2.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/10DAL13.HTM

Code: Select all

Position   Min   Net Pts
SF     29%   +164
PF     27%   -154

Shawn Marion-Dallas Mavericks-2010-2011 NBA Season
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Statistically you are up there with the elite in this league. You are one of six players to averaging more than 18 points and ten rebounds a game (Elton Brand, Shaquille O’Neal, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan are the others), yet you don’t seem to get the national recognition that others get. Why do you think that is?

SM: I don’t know… You said it, 18-10, how many small forwards are averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds? Only one… I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing and sooner or later they’ll come around, but I’ve just got to keep working hard and trying to get better.

http://hoopshype.com/interviews/marion_koek.htm

Shawn Marion plays the PF for Dallas. You showing a bunch of lineups where he is the PF doesn't help your point. Offensively AND defensively he plays whoever is the strongest. If its the 3, Marion takes the 3. If its a strong 4, then Marion takes the 4. Dirk is hidden on the weakest of the two postions. Dirk is not a 4 and everyone in the league knows it. Dirk at the 4 = no championships. THey went and got a more athletic 4 that can defend 4 positions and they win one. Marion was a 4 in Phoenix, got traded to Miami where he was a 4 for them, they did move him back to the 3 in Toronto, but it didn't really work.

In 2002, Marion did play the 3. And you know what the suns were? Barely a .500 team. Mike D'antoni took over the next year, move Amare to the 5 and Marion to the 4. So he spent the next

AGAIN, NO TEAM HAS SUCCEEDED WITH JOSH SMITHS OFFENSIVE SKILL SET AT THE 3. NONE. NOT ONE.

Natural = Can't do anything expected of the position to you.

You are calling me a nut while actually arguing that the guy that has every fan and announcer SCREAMING to give the ball up when he starts to dribble has great handles. If you can watch Josh Smith and come away saying he has better handles than say Marvin Williams, then you are blind or just on that "See what I want to see" thing that you do.

[Ruhiel]

"Shawn Marion plays the PF for Offensively AND defensively he plays whoever is the strongest. If its a strong 3, Marion takes the 3. If its a strong 4, then Marion takes the 4. Dirk is hidden on the weakest of the two postions."

"Dirk is not a 4 and everyone in the league knows it. Dirk at the 4 = no championships. THey went and got a more athletic 4 that can defend 4 positions and they win one. "

"Marion was a 4 in Phoenix, got traded to Miami where he was a 4 for them, they did move him back to the 3 in Toronto, but it didn't really work."

"Every fan and announcer SCREAMING to give the ball up when he starts to dribble has great handles."

" If you can watch Josh Smith and come away saying he has better handles than say Marvin Williams, then you are blind or just on that "See what I want to see" thing that you do."

"AGAIN, NO TEAM HAS SUCCEEDED WITH JOSH SMITHS OFFENSIVE SKILL SET AT THE 3. NONE. NOT ONE."
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First statement I have no idea what you're saying. Seems like being vague on purpose. What is a "strong" 4? Boozer is physically stronger than Luol Deng does Nowitzki guard Deng? But Deng is faster so I have no idea what that 1st quote means.

2nd statement....Mind blown.

3rd statement: Marion won 51 games as a "3" with Jason Kidd. He lost won 62 with Steve Nash in small ball. But Josh & Marion are similar they are ultimately 2 different players.

4th statement: Yeah dribbling as a 4/PF & trying to beat 4 players in front of you is different from running the WING (1 or 2 people to beat) and attacking the rim.

5th statement: Yeah you can never remember Marvin handling the ball but he's better by default.

6th statement: Ya know there's 2 sides to a basketball game (offense fuels defense and vice versa)... But I seemingly remember the big lineup forcing Orlando to pick his poison between Josh Smith and Joe Johsnon and their struggle to make shots getting us good matchups on offense.

It's difficult for the Magic to defend the Hawks' jumpers because the Hawks possess a size advantage at all of the backcourt spots. Kirk Hinrich (6-foot-4), Jamal Crawford (6-5) and Johnson (6-7) are all lengthy for guards.

[Rip2137]

"Strong" means an actual offensive threat. The Mavs hide Dirk defensively on a nightly basis. Marions ability to guard positions 1-4 is why he fits in Dallas. Dirk is not a PF offensively. I think we can both agree to that? He plays top of the key, high post, uses his quickness if you try to guard him with size off the dribble and uses his size at the high post if you try to guard him with quickness. He is a Small Forward in every sense of the word offensively.

Defensively, we know he isn't a 4 because if the 4 has any semblance of a post game, they hide him away from him. Dirk is assigned to wings unless they are particularly strong offensively in which case they hide him somewhere else. I don't see how you can say Dirk is a PF.

Marion didn't win 51 games with Jason Kidd in Phoenix as a 3. Clifford Robinson was the 3 on that team dude. Unless you are about to argue with me that Clifford Robinson was playing the 4 for Phoenix. Shawn Marion played the 3 for two and a half years in Phoenix. They won 29/44/36 games during those years. His rookie year and that was mostly off the bench and they saw it probably wouldn't work outside of transition, and in 2002-2003 season where they were barely .500 and the next season where they were one of the worse teams in the NBA and Frank Johnson got fired and Mike D'antoni took over. Mike moved him back to the 4.

Josh has demonstrated he can't consistently beat 4's off the dribble without bobbling the ball but you think he can do it against a 3 and other perimeter players? The guy has no handles. They are DECENT for a 4, but horrid for a 3. No he can't be 2 guys off the dribble on the wing. Marvin has done it (this year not withstanding) for YEARS. Marvin's problem has been finishing when he got to the rim. If you really haven't watched Marvin put the ball on the floor and get to the rim ever, again, you are just watching some blind folded, only see what you want version of events.

And as for my last point...its really a simple thing. ALL you have to do is name A team that used Josh Smiths skill set at the 3 and was successful. Find me a PLAYOFF team that did it. The reason you can't is because it clearly wouldn't work. You just aren't willing to admit it.

The CLOSEST you will get is Philly with George Lynch at the 3. But he was a MUCH better shooter from midrange than Josh.

Our big lineup against Orlando worked because we could stay at home against shooters because there was no double coming. It had nothing to do with size and everything to do with the defensive scheme you could play when not double teaming Dwight Howard.

[Ruhiel]

The Nowitzki+Marion+Clifford Robinson thing is lunacy. Please take that elsewhere like Player comparison board. Its ridiculous.

"ALL you have to do is name A team that used Josh Smiths skill set at the 3 and was successful."
Idk because with Smith's flaws at the 3 you would need a really good 4... say Kevin Garnett?


"Our big lineup against Orlando worked because we could stay at home against shooters because there was no double coming. It had nothing to do with size and everything to do with the defensive scheme you could play when not double teaming Dwight Howard."

Size: Team's size clogged the lane, played help defense, helped us get offense boards, and ran the wing. Smith was 250 lbs and still able to chase Turkoglu around screens.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUlU70pjq-A[/youtube]

Size matters

Magic coach Stan Van Gundy said the team's video session on Sunday focused mostly on defense. He said the Hawks found match ups they liked and repeatedly exploited them, with Orlando guard J.J. Redick and forward Ryan Anderson as favored targets.

“We can't have it be a one-one-one ballgame," Van Gundy said. "That's not to our benefit. That's where their size becomes an advantage. So we have got to do some things to move them around and get bodies off of us.”

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks ... orts_82038

ANY ways....

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Next item: I argued Smith as a transition wing. Not as a trailing point forward. Then you want to argue Josh beating people off the dribble in the halfcourt.
Offense: Smith gets transition scores, alley oops, sucks in the defense rim running, potential scoring off of steals he gets on the wing, and halfcourt movement KG is always able to shoot off the dribble and Josh moves out the way.
Good defense and ability to rebound and it leads to good shot selection.

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We could have benefitted with a big lineup in a few of our losses and some Playoff teams.
-Philly (JJ vs Meeks, Josh vs Iguodala)
-NY
-Por
-Memphis
-Golden State

hell I don't think we would have lost any of those with KG, and obviously Garnett is a clear injury risk but going into playoffs it is clear Horford is not the same caliber of player even healthy.
and yes teams play big, and our big lineup Teague+Joe+Smith+Garnett+center is elite.



Marvin's problem? How about problems: cant shoot off dribble, cant handle in transition, cant finish in transition, below the rim player, Cant post up smaller players, cant beat bigger players off the dribble, defers to Josh