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Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play?

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Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#1 » by BBAL » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:56 am

I was trying to devise a defensive grading system that can most accurately distribute responsibility of defending among players and ran into a few dilemmas, so I though I'd appeal to the GMForums brain trust and at the same time, get some of you to test your IQ of the game. I could use your help but it does require that you put your thinking caps on. It's really not as easy as you might think. Any basketball gurus in here? For the more casual fans, see which one of the choices below seems to make the most sense to you. If you can't decide, you could also eliminate the ones you absolutely would NOT pick.

Observe the following play. It's very important that you pay attention to the details as some of the choices have only a minor difference. Decide which one seems most accurate, appropriate and fair. Consider both the accuracy in grading method as well as the simplicity and practicality of both tracking and presenting the results. You can pick two, one for accuracy and one for practicality if you'd like.

How should the responsibility of the 2 points allowed be distributed?
Image

Which one of the following explanations and grading methods seems most accurate and appropriate?

a) Amare allowed 2 points and should take full responsibility for the points allowed. Because the offensive screen was set properly, Lin was blocked, and Amare became Parker's defender. Defensive roles switched. Melo and Fields could not prevent Parker from scoring. No one else bears any responsibility because once he failed to pick up Parker, nobody else could prevent the score from happening.

b) Lin, Amare, Melo and Fields each allowed 0.25 of the total 2 points because they were all equally responsible defending the play. It's all one defensive play. Lin and Amare equally failed in defending the screen, while Melo and Fields equally failed in defending the basket so they should all share the responsibility in points allowed. Since it was Lin's initial man that scored, he should also share the responsibility of the points allowed.

c) There are 3 separate events. Melo and Fields should split the points allowed, each allowing 1 point, because they were the last defenders at the basket and the ultimate responsibility falls on them. Amare should be credited with 1 "allowed blow by" for failing to pick up Parker, which was the second event. Amare and Lin equally failed to defend the screen, the first event. Amare's allowed "blow by" should be tracked separate but he should not be held responsible for any points allowed because there were still 2 defenders that had a chance to prevent the score. Lin and Amare should share responsibility in failing to defend the screen and this should also be tracked.

Example stat line:
Melo: 1 Point Allowed
Fields: 1 Point Allowed
Amare: 1 "blow-by" Allowed
Lin: 0 Points Allowed 0 "blow-bys" Allowed.

d) Same as above but Amare and Lin should share the allowed "blow by" , and each be credited with half for failing to pick up Parker.

Example stat line:
Melo: 1 Point Allowed
Fields: 1 Point Allowed
Amare: 0.5 "blow-bys" Allowed


e) Amare, Melo, Fields each allowed 1/3rd or 0.67 of the 2 points. Amare also allowed a "blow by" which should be counted and tracked separate in addition to sharing 1/3rd of the responsibility of the points allowed. Nothing should be tracked for Lin.

f) Amare, Melo, Fields each allowed 1/3rd or 0.67 of the 2 points. Because Amare is sharing the responsibility of the points allowed, a "blow by" should no longer be counted against him. Nothings should be tracked for Lin.

g) Amare is responsible for 1 point while Melo and Fields should each be held responsible for 0.5 points. After the screen was set, Amare was in the best position to prevent Parker from scoring and should share at least half the responsibility for the points allowed. Amare should also be credited with a "blow by".

g) Other. If you don't like any of the above grading methods/explanations OR want to change something, please explain.

PS: I chose not to do a poll because I only want responses from people that actually take the time to think this through. And please don't berate anyone that might pick an answer you feel is completely ridiculous. I'd love to hear everyone's point of view.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#2 » by chales_zed » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:03 am

Amare is responsible for the two points in that play.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#3 » by cgmw » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:07 am

(g) other. There's no point of assigning blame to specific players. It's called "Team Defense" for a reason. The numerous defensive gaffes during this losing streak are not the "fault" of any specific person (D'Antoni blame notwithstanding).

To me, the point should be finding a way for the team to play better defense. This seems to be as much of a motivational problem as it is a lack of individual technical knowledge about how to play defense.

Running a switch scheme seems like a spectacularly horrible choice for a team anchored by two guys not necessarily renowned for either their effort or accumen on defense. It's a real head scratcher.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#4 » by airchibundo507 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:10 am

Amare is clearly at fault. The Spurs are playing small ball and have an outside threat at every position, so the spacing is ideal for an uncontested lay-up. And Tony Parker is one of the fastest players in the NBA with the ball in his hands, and you really can't anticipate him getting to the rim at the start of initiating their halfcourt offense with such ease
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#5 » by chales_zed » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:16 am

cgmw wrote:(g) other. There's no point of assigning blame to specific players. It's called "Team Defense" for a reason. The numerous defensive gaffes during this losing streak are not the "fault" of any specific person (D'Antoni blame notwithstanding).

To me, the point should be finding a way for the team to play better defense. This seems to be as much of a motivational problem as it is a lack of individual technical knowledge about how to play defense.

Running a switch scheme seems like a spectacularly horrible choice for a team anchored by two guys not necessarily renowned for either their effort or accumen on defense. It's a real head scratcher.


Rational response is rational.

In this play the fault is entirely Amare's but yes, the entire team's defense has been awful. The switching is awful, the help defense is awful, and there is endless confusion on the Knicks. The defensive scheme sucks considering we've got two players with poor defensive IQ, a rookie PG and a bunch of guys who were just thrown in together with barely any practice time.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#6 » by BBAL » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:19 am

cgmw wrote:(g) other. There's no point of assigning blame to specific players. It's called "Team Defense" for a reason. The numerous defensive gaffes during this losing streak are not the "fault" of any specific person (D'Antoni blame notwithstanding).

To me, the point should be finding a way for the team to play better defense. This seems to be as much of a motivational problem as it is a lack of individual technical knowledge about how to play defense.

Running a switch scheme seems like a spectacularly horrible choice for a team anchored by two guys not necessarily renowned for either their effort or accumen on defense. It's a real head scratcher.



You may not think so, but I am actually trying to devise a point system. Just like there's a reason for tracking steals, or blocks, or turnovers, there is a good reason for going beyond that as well.

This is not about fixing this team's issue on defense. This is simply about devising a point system to grade defense. And yes, just like we track points, it's equally important to find out which players allow the most points. I know most people aren't used to tracking defense, but it is a skill set that can be tracked, just like shooting percentage or points scored.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#7 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:05 pm

a) Amare has to at least slow Parker down. There was no way Fields or Melo could get there in time. They are not going to beat Parker in a sprint to the basket.
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Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#8 » by Knicks_Fan2 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:24 pm

cgmw wrote:(g) other. There's no point of assigning blame to specific players. It's called "Team Defense" for a reason. The numerous defensive gaffes during this losing streak are not the "fault" of any specific person (D'Antoni blame notwithstanding).

To me, the point should be finding a way for the team to play better defense. This seems to be as much of a motivational problem as it is a lack of individual technical knowledge about how to play defense.

Running a switch scheme seems like a spectacularly horrible choice for a team anchored by two guys not necessarily renowned for either their effort or accumen on defense. It's a real head scratcher.


How exactly are you going to diagnose team defense issues when you take a stand like this? You know, no stand at all. Answer you own question, how do you find a way on that play to play better team defense, and you will likely end up ascribing a portion of the blame to someone.

Amare is to blame here. I would consider blaming the coaches if amare wasn't taught how to guard the pnr but I see Tyson do it will every time so i have to think--considering amares other defensive gaffes--that he just didn't know what to do. I award amare 2 points.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#9 » by ORANGEandBLUE » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:34 pm

I award Amare 2 points. It doesn't seem he even told Lin that a screen was coming. If the plan is to switch there is no reason why Lin should get caught up on the screen.

I would defend it by having Amare come out to contest the shot and force Parker to go right, and have Lin go under the screen to stop Parker when Stat makes him drive right. Duncan isn't even a threat that far out.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#10 » by alphad0gz » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:59 pm

On Amar'e for sure. If you watch carefully, he even moved out of the way allowing Parker a clear path. That should never, ever happen. Amar'e should have shown sooner and harder. Even if Duncan rolls, there is more time to get help. If he catches the ball, he still has to shoot over Lin with a hand up. What would you rather have, a long jump shot with a hand up(35-40% at best) or an uncontested layup (close to 100%)? Decent chance that Duncan would not shoot a contested jumper since he almost only takes uncontested jump shots. Its called "knowing your opponent".
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#11 » by Livingthedream » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:11 pm

Ill point out what should have happened, but no points system. Sorry, its a team game

a) Lin shouldve known that screen was coming - Amare where was the talk. also switch doesnt work at NBA level imo. Should be a show/contain recover.
b) What should have been an Amare 'show and contain' was lucky to be an Amare 'show'. there was no commitment, especially since Lin got wiped out on the pick
c) Feilds and Melo didnt hedge enough considering the ball was at the top. You could have landed a jumbo jet through the middle. Dont get my wrong we dont need to play zone but play shell principles basic half court man. Part of shell also means percentages, give up the lower percentage outside shot over the layup anyday
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#12 » by prophet_of_rage » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:40 pm

The problem with these systems is that you don't know what the Knicks defensive rules are in this situation. We've seen several plays where the Knicks duck back to their man and essentially play one-on-one with no help.

So in the video it was definitely Amar'e who was exploited and definitely Amar'e who did not offer any resistance to Parker's penetration. But you will also notice that Duncan jumped out and maybe set an illegal screen, jumping into Lin as Parker was on the move. Amar'e made the attempt to get back to Duncan and Lin, being picked, couldn't recover to Parker.

If these were my players, I'd sub Amar'e in that situation and fix the problem. However, there were no consequences which leads me to believe this is part of the system. SSOL defence, as I've been saying for weeks now, the system under which Amar'e developed exclusively, mandates strict one-on-one coverage so that when you're beat there is no help so you just go into transition so you can get it back on the other end. Grinnell employs a similar system where you trap in the front court, try for a steal and if not, basically allow the layup or challenge and rebound to get the ball back faster.

I blame the system.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#13 » by Handledatruth » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:55 pm

The Spurs have been doing this to Amare for years. What has Amare changed since his Phoenix days that would stop things like that from happening? Bad pick-and-roll defense is bad.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#14 » by CrazyKnicks » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Amare 100%, Lin attempted to fight over the screen. Amare has the responsibility to stay in front of Parker for a dew seconds until Lin is able to recover. All good defensive teams have their bigs do that.
Amare left Lin in a 2 on 1 position basically.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#15 » by sikma42 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:04 pm

Livingthedream wrote:Ill point out what should have happened, but no points system. Sorry, its a team game

a) Lin shouldve known that screen was coming - Amare where was the talk. also switch doesnt work at NBA level imo. Should be a show/contain recover.
b) What should have been an Amare 'show and contain' was lucky to be an Amare 'show'. there was no commitment, especially since Lin got wiped out on the pick
c) Feilds and Melo didnt hedge enough considering the ball was at the top. You could have landed a jumbo jet through the middle. Dont get my wrong we dont need to play zone but play shell principles basic half court man. Part of shell also means percentages, give up the lower percentage outside shot over the layup anyday


Lin runs into almost every on ball screen set on him. I have a hard time believing no one EVER calls out the screens. I have a harder time thinking he doesn't at least see some of them coming. Lin has a problem in the pick in rolls because he gets caught up on screens. It is either a lack of bball iq or guy just wants to take himself out the play.

The problem with these systems is that you don't know what the Knicks defensive rules are in this situation. We've seen several plays where the Knicks duck back to their man and essentially play one-on-one with no help.


exactly
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#16 » by NOOB77 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:05 pm

Clearly Melo's fault.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#17 » by yaboynyp » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:08 pm

Amare gave a weak show.. Lin didn’t go under the pick (probably didn’t hear stat say pick or Stat didn’t talk) The basket is on those two.. I would do a seperate category for Pnr defense..
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#18 » by ken819 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:51 pm

sikma42 wrote:
Lin runs into almost every on ball screen set on him. I have a hard time believing no one EVER calls out the screens. I have a harder time thinking he doesn't at least see some of them coming. Lin has a problem in the pick in rolls because he gets caught up on screens. It is either a lack of bball iq or guy just wants to take himself out the play.


dude you might as well blame Lin for not having the movie Jumper ability to teleport right in front of Parker after pick n roll. ffs.. :roll:
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#19 » by mildred » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:16 pm

Amare without a doubt.... 2 points. He never slowed Parker down in any respect for the team defense to work.

My guess is that Amare doesn't call out the screen to Lin. Amare just doesn't see a play forming in his mind. His reactions are always a split second too late (UNLESS HE'S MAKING THE MOVE). It's been his athleticism that has made up for his cerebral split second delays over the course of his career. With his obvious loss of athleticism this year these defensive lapses are taking on a life of there own it seems like.

Lin sees the court, it's obvious from his passing ability. I'm sure he's able to see many screens coming his way as well. He obviously has good peripheral vision and good anticipation. Duncan came over fast and set a very questionable screen but Amare did push him a bit. I can see why Lin didn't see this pick coming, especially when you have a guard as quick as Parker you must concentrate on.
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Re: Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play? 

Post#20 » by Knicksfan20 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:45 pm

Its all on Amare. Amare did nothing on that play at all. When playing pick and roll defense as a big man...you need to slow down the ball handler to allow for your PG to recover. Amare did absolutely nothing on that play. With a PG as quick as parker you cant expect Fields to pick him up or slow him down from where he is (and leave Manu open) and you cant expect Melo to step to intimidate when you have a 3pt shooter righ in the corner.

Yes Fields and Melo could have (and should have closed in a bit) but it would have just put them in a bad defensive situation. Amare NEEDS to step up and slow the ball handler down or change his direction. ALso if you look Amare is playing WAY to far back from the pick....He should be just about on Duncans right side to protect the drive...and then be ready to slide back to protect against the roll. He just gave Parker a clear lane to the bucket by playing HORRIBLE and STUPID defense.

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