Basketball IQ: How would you grade this defensive play?

[cgmw]

(g) other. There's no point of assigning blame to specific players. It's called "Team Defense" for a reason. The numerous defensive gaffes during this losing streak are not the "fault" of any specific person (D'Antoni blame notwithstanding).

To me, the point should be finding a way for the team to play better defense. This seems to be as much of a motivational problem as it is a lack of individual technical knowledge about how to play defense.

Running a switch scheme seems like a spectacularly horrible choice for a team anchored by two guys not necessarily renowned for either their effort or accumen on defense. It's a real head scratcher.

How exactly are you going to diagnose team defense issues when you take a stand like this? You know, no stand at all. Answer you own question, how do you find a way on that play to play better team defense, and you will likely end up ascribing a portion of the blame to someone.

Amare is to blame here. I would consider blaming the coaches if amare wasn't taught how to guard the pnr but I see Tyson do it will every time so i have to think--considering amares other defensive gaffes--that he just didn't know what to do. I award amare 2 points.

Yes, the team is in fact made up of 5 individuals on the court at any given moment. Yes, each individual must do their part or the entire enterprise could implode like we see in this gif.

To answer your question in two parts: 1) Amar'e needs to get better at help defense. 2) His teammates also need to get better, including in their ability to anticipate the same blatantly obvious defensive gaffes made by Amar'e over and over again.

If it's no secret to the general public that Amar'e can't help defend to save his life, I'm pretty sure his teammates have figured it out too. It's now their responsibility to play in such a way that compensates for this handicap.

If one really wanted to score this, I'd recommend grading on a curve. You know, something like 1.0 Amar'e mistake = 1.5 Fields' mistake. Something commensurate with the proportion of each player's points scored + assists - turnovers resulting in opponent's FGs. Analytically, how is this any different than a simple +/- of team points scored versus team points allowed while each individual player is on the court?

While some individual plays are obvious, "grading" each bucket by the other team isn't in fact possible. Whose fault is it when a switch is late and the opposing team swings the ball three times to an open shooter? Whose fault is it when Durant hits a shot only one human on the planet could make? Whose fault is it when the coach orders a switch and you end up with Bynum scoring a point-blank layup over Lin? If a player commits a turnover that results in a basket the other direction, does his offensive mistake count as a defensive mistake? Are we just assigning blame or do players get points for preventing baskets too? If so, how can you tell who caused an opponent's miss (was it good D or just bad O?)? Trying to assess individual blame within a dynamic system of moving parts seems like a whole lot of trouble for some extraordinarily subjective results.

They make Amar'e watch tape of his individual mistakes. They make his teammates watch tape of their mistakes, including their mistakes of failing to adequately help their failing teammate. If coming up with an arbitrary number to "grade" individual defense helps, then I'm all for it.

[alphad0gz]

Lin didn’t go under the pick

Going under picks in the NBA is suicide. Any coach at any level should be fired for teaching that. Picks should be called out and an effort should be made to fight over it. Going under it gives the shooter an open jump shot every time. The Knicks simply do not communicate defensively, nor do they put out the energy and effort required to defend well. Linsanity worked because the team was playing great defense and moving the ball. Hell, even Jeffries was scoring. The team was balanced both defensively and offensively.

[cgmw]

Lin didn’t go under the pick

Going under picks in the NBA is suicide. Any coach at any level should be fired for teaching that. Picks should be called out and an effort should be made to fight over it. Going under it gives the shooter an open jump shot every time. The Knicks simply do not communicate defensively, nor do they put out the energy and effort required to defend well. Linsanity worked because the team was playing great defense and moving the ball. Hell, even Jeffries was scoring. The team was balanced both defensively and offensively.

Coaches call for going under the pick all the time against players who are quick on drives yet shoot low % from three.

We saw this first hand in some of the early Linsanity games when opposing coaches (Mike Brown for one) specifically called for it just to see if Lin could hit his jumpers. We also saw Jason Kidd kill us with this in the 2nd Mavs game last week, specifically in the final minute with Novak assigned to guard him.

[spree2kawhi]

I was trying to devise a defensive grading system that can most accurately distribute responsibility of defending among players and ran into a few dilemmas, so I though I'd appeal to the GMForums brain trust and at the same time, get some of you to test your IQ of the game. I could use your help but it does require that you put your thinking caps on. It's really not as easy as you might think. Any basketball gurus in here? For the more casual fans, see which one of the choices below seems to make the most sense to you. If you can't decide, you could also eliminate the ones you absolutely would NOT pick.

Observe the following play. It's very important that you pay attention to the details as some of the choices have only a minor difference. Decide which one seems most accurate, appropriate and fair. Consider both the accuracy in grading method as well as the simplicity and practicality of both tracking and presenting the results. You can pick two, one for accuracy and one for practicality if you'd like.

How should the responsibility of the 2 points allowed be distributed?


Which one of the following explanations and grading methods seems most accurate and appropriate?

a) Amare allowed 2 points and should take full responsibility for the points allowed. Because the offensive screen was set properly, Lin was blocked, and Amare became Parker's defender. Defensive roles switched. Melo and Fields could not prevent Parker from scoring. No one else bears any responsibility because once he failed to pick up Parker, nobody else could prevent the score from happening.

b) Lin, Amare, Melo and Fields each allowed 0.25 of the total 2 points because they were all equally responsible defending the play. It's all one defensive play. Lin and Amare equally failed in defending the screen, while Melo and Fields equally failed in defending the basket so they should all share the responsibility in points allowed. Since it was Lin's initial man that scored, he should also share the responsibility of the points allowed.

c) There are 3 separate events. Melo and Fields should split the points allowed, each allowing 1 point, because they were the last defenders at the basket and the ultimate responsibility falls on them. Amare should be credited with 1 "allowed blow by" for failing to pick up Parker, which was the second event. Amare and Lin equally failed to defend the screen, the first event. Amare's allowed "blow by" should be tracked separate but he should not be held responsible for any points allowed because there were still 2 defenders that had a chance to prevent the score. Lin and Amare should share responsibility in failing to defend the screen and this should also be tracked.

Example stat line:
Melo: 1 Point Allowed
Fields: 1 Point Allowed
Amare: 1 "blow-by" Allowed
Lin: 0 Points Allowed 0 "blow-bys" Allowed.

d) Same as above but Amare and Lin should share the allowed "blow by" , and each be credited with half for failing to pick up Parker.

Example stat line:
Melo: 1 Point Allowed
Fields: 1 Point Allowed
Amare: 0.5 "blow-bys" Allowed


e) Amare, Melo, Fields each allowed 1/3rd or 0.67 of the 2 points. Amare also allowed a "blow by" which should be counted and tracked separate in addition to sharing 1/3rd of the responsibility of the points allowed. Nothing should be tracked for Lin.

f) Amare, Melo, Fields each allowed 1/3rd or 0.67 of the 2 points. Because Amare is sharing the responsibility of the points allowed, a "blow by" should no longer be counted against him. Nothings should be tracked for Lin.

g) Amare is responsible for 1 point while Melo and Fields should each be held responsible for 0.5 points. After the screen was set, Amare was in the best position to prevent Parker from scoring and should share at least half the responsibility for the points allowed. Amare should also be credited with a "blow by".

g) Other. If you don't like any of the above grading methods/explanations OR want to change something, please explain.

PS: I chose not to do a poll because I only want responses from people that actually take the time to think this through. And please don't berate anyone that might pick an answer you feel is completely ridiculous. I'd love to hear everyone's point of view.

The only possible way to prevent this from happening is if you substitute Novak with Chandler. I don't know if you have ever played a really fast guard... and this is Tony Parker coming at you with full speed as well as a head- and bodyfake. Amare has no chance. Neither does Melo actually. Fields MAYBE. Lin also doesn't have a chance on the screen, This is a deadly pick and roll.

[adrenaLINe]

Ill point out what should have happened, but no points system. Sorry, its a team game

a) Lin shouldve known that screen was coming - Amare where was the talk. also switch doesnt work at NBA level imo. Should be a show/contain recover.
b) What should have been an Amare 'show and contain' was lucky to be an Amare 'show'. there was no commitment, especially since Lin got wiped out on the pick
c) Feilds and Melo didnt hedge enough considering the ball was at the top. You could have landed a jumbo jet through the middle. Dont get my wrong we dont need to play zone but play shell principles basic half court man. Part of shell also means percentages, give up the lower percentage outside shot over the layup anyday

Lin runs into almost every on ball screen set on him. I have a hard time believing no one EVER calls out the screens. I have a harder time thinking he doesn't at least see some of them coming. Lin has a problem in the pick in rolls because he gets caught up on screens. It is either a lack of bball iq or guy just wants to take himself out the play.

The problem with these systems is that you don't know what the Knicks defensive rules are in this situation. We've seen several plays where the Knicks duck back to their man and essentially play one-on-one with no help.

exactly

please can you be anymore of a hater?

obviously in that play Lin wanted to face plant into Duncan's Grill...

the only thing it looks like Amare did was to push Duncan into Lin and then get out of the way...

if he had called the pick... then Lin would have reacted...

and Fields and Melo would not have been so flat footed...

what ill fault Lin on....

is as soon as he got pickeded by Duncan

he should have called out for help defense... especially when he saw it was Amare on the coverage

[cgmw]

^
^

Agree wit basketboule's Novak-for-Chandler comment. If Chandler had been in the game and hypothetically blocked that shot, then Amare's defensive "grade" doesn't take a hit. I see where you're going with the grade stuff, and I appreciate the creativity, but grading individual performance within a group scheme (on a blame-only scale) is suspect.

The flip-side to this very old problem is that individually excellent defenders don't have a true metric to gauge their effectiveness in comparison to other great defenders. I believe they spend a lot of time an energy trying to solve this problem up at MIT at the Slaon Conference.

Having a bastardized metric that attempts to assign punitive blame for bad individual defense seems like an exercise valuable mainly for its healing qualities among an angry subset of frustrated fans.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Lin didn’t go under the pick

Going under picks in the NBA is suicide. Any coach at any level should be fired for teaching that. Picks should be called out and an effort should be made to fight over it. Going under it gives the shooter an open jump shot every time. The Knicks simply do not communicate defensively, nor do they put out the energy and effort required to defend well. Linsanity worked because the team was playing great defense and moving the ball. Hell, even Jeffries was scoring. The team was balanced both defensively and offensively.

Not if the big comes out to contest the shot. There is no benefit to Lin trying to fight through a screen and failing miserably (good luck getting through a Duncan screen).

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Didn't Amare basically ruin Douglas' career by allowing him to crash into so many screens?

Let's not allow this to happen with Lin.

[illRoso]

I was trying to devise a defensive grading system that can most accurately distribute responsibility of defending among players and ran into a few dilemmas, so I though I'd appeal to the GMForums brain trust and at the same time, get some of you to test your IQ of the game. I could use your help but it does require that you put your thinking caps on. It's really not as easy as you might think. Any basketball gurus in here? For the more casual fans, see which one of the choices below seems to make the most sense to you. If you can't decide, you could also eliminate the ones you absolutely would NOT pick.

Observe the following play. It's very important that you pay attention to the details as some of the choices have only a minor difference. Decide which one seems most accurate, appropriate and fair. Consider both the accuracy in grading method as well as the simplicity and practicality of both tracking and presenting the results. You can pick two, one for accuracy and one for practicality if you'd like.

How should the responsibility of the 2 points allowed be distributed?


Which one of the following explanations and grading methods seems most accurate and appropriate?

a) Amare allowed 2 points and should take full responsibility for the points allowed. Because the offensive screen was set properly, Lin was blocked, and Amare became Parker's defender. Defensive roles switched. Melo and Fields could not prevent Parker from scoring. No one else bears any responsibility because once he failed to pick up Parker, nobody else could prevent the score from happening.

b) Lin, Amare, Melo and Fields each allowed 0.25 of the total 2 points because they were all equally responsible defending the play. It's all one defensive play. Lin and Amare equally failed in defending the screen, while Melo and Fields equally failed in defending the basket so they should all share the responsibility in points allowed. Since it was Lin's initial man that scored, he should also share the responsibility of the points allowed.

c) There are 3 separate events. Melo and Fields should split the points allowed, each allowing 1 point, because they were the last defenders at the basket and the ultimate responsibility falls on them. Amare should be credited with 1 "allowed blow by" for failing to pick up Parker, which was the second event. Amare and Lin equally failed to defend the screen, the first event. Amare's allowed "blow by" should be tracked separate but he should not be held responsible for any points allowed because there were still 2 defenders that had a chance to prevent the score. Lin and Amare should share responsibility in failing to defend the screen and this should also be tracked.

Example stat line:
Melo: 1 Point Allowed
Fields: 1 Point Allowed
Amare: 1 "blow-by" Allowed
Lin: 0 Points Allowed 0 "blow-bys" Allowed.

d) Same as above but Amare and Lin should share the allowed "blow by" , and each be credited with half for failing to pick up Parker.

Example stat line:
Melo: 1 Point Allowed
Fields: 1 Point Allowed
Amare: 0.5 "blow-bys" Allowed


e) Amare, Melo, Fields each allowed 1/3rd or 0.67 of the 2 points. Amare also allowed a "blow by" which should be counted and tracked separate in addition to sharing 1/3rd of the responsibility of the points allowed. Nothing should be tracked for Lin.

f) Amare, Melo, Fields each allowed 1/3rd or 0.67 of the 2 points. Because Amare is sharing the responsibility of the points allowed, a "blow by" should no longer be counted against him. Nothings should be tracked for Lin.

g) Amare is responsible for 1 point while Melo and Fields should each be held responsible for 0.5 points. After the screen was set, Amare was in the best position to prevent Parker from scoring and should share at least half the responsibility for the points allowed. Amare should also be credited with a "blow by".

g) Other. If you don't like any of the above grading methods/explanations OR want to change something, please explain.

PS: I chose not to do a poll because I only want responses from people that actually take the time to think this through. And please don't berate anyone that might pick an answer you feel is completely ridiculous. I'd love to hear everyone's point of view.

The only possible way to prevent this from happening is if you substitute Novak with Chandler. I don't know if you have ever played a really fast guard... and this is Tony Parker coming at you with full speed as well as a head- and bodyfake. Amare has no chance. Neither does Melo actually. Fields MAYBE. Lin also doesn't have a chance on the screen, This is a deadly pick and roll.

Yup, the timing is exquisite. It's what a vet team who's been there and back multiple times has learned to do naturally.

I'd actually give Novak half a point Melo 1/6, Fields 1/6, Lin 1/6 and Amar'e a full (deserves 2).

Novak - the first rule of defense is never lose sight of the ball. Steve could've prob 3/4 his man since he was technically 1 pass away, especially on the drive and kick but he does a good job watching the play develop. As soon as his man clears the paint and he sees Tony Tim at the top of the key, he should be screaming that the lane is open to let those with their back to the paint know what's behind them. That is what real defensive communication is. It's magnificently executed though because the minute Bonner clears Tony goes.

Melo - Saw the whole play develop and was still late getting to the block. You need a clean, hard foul there to give the little man something the to think about and I doubt he yelled to STAT that he had no help.

Fields - see Melo

Lin - if you can't feel a 7 footer in your peripheral then you should be able to feel him with your hands. If in proper defensive stance Lin should have his hands up anyway to feel for the screener like a bugs antennas. Shump does it and gets over screens like a vet. He opens up to his ballhandler's weak hand just before Duncan gets to him. He was anticipating it, maybe not at the moment but he could feel the iso in the flow of the game. If STAT did show and cut off the lane, Lin's stuck with Tim at the elbow.

STAT - terrible, no effort. I know he was trying to let Jeremy back in the play (which leads me to believe he thought Lin was aware of the screen for whatever reason). What I don't know is why he's funneling the guard to help when he's the 5. He is the help. If he's scared of Duncan jumper on the pick and pop or a dive through the lane on a roll fine. You still have to slow down the ballhandler on the drive. You've got to bite the bullet on that one and foul or contain until you can pass the man off. Basic basketball fellas.

[BBAL]

Interesting responses and some are quite enlightening. I am surprised because most people seem to choose A(perhaps due to perception against Amare?). Then again, I 'm not sure if most really understood the direction I am going with this. I personally would have gone with any option other than A.

But I want to make sure so...

a)Amare allowed 2 points and should take full responsibility for the points allowed. Because the offensive screen was set properly, Lin was blocked, and Amare became Parker's defender. Defensive roles switched. Melo and Fields could not prevent Parker from scoring. No one else bears any responsibility because once he failed to pick up Parker, nobody else could prevent the score from happening.

So most people here believe nobody else could have prevented a score from happening once Amare failed to defend Parker?

So the "points allowed" stat sheet would look like this?

Novak: 0
Lin: 0
Melo 0
Fields: 0
Amare: 2 Points Allowed, 1 "blow by"

This is how most would record it? Ask yourself this: Does Fields and Melo bear no responsibility on this play just because Amare failed?

PS: I was hoping for answers more along the lines of just A, B, C, ...etc..and I was hoping the critique would go towards the explanations/methods given rather than Amare/play in general. But I still appreciate your input.

[BBAL]

Yup, the timing is exquisite. It's what a vet team who's been there and back multiple times has learned to do naturally.

I'd actually give Novak half a point Melo 1/6, Fields 1/6, Lin 1/6 and Amar'e a full (deserves 2).

Novak - the first rule of defense is never lose sight of the ball. Steve could've prob 3/4 his man since he was technically 1 pass away, especially on the drive and kick but he does a good job watching the play develop. As soon as his man clears the paint and he sees Tony Tim at the top of the key, he should be screaming that the lane is open to let those with their back to the paint know what's behind them. That is what real defensive communication is. It's magnificently executed though because the minute Bonner clears Tony goes.

Melo - Saw the whole play develop and was still late getting to the block. You need a clean, hard foul there to give the little man something the to think about and I doubt he yelled to STAT that he had no help.

Fields - see Melo

Lin - if you can't feel a 7 footer in your peripheral then you should be able to feel him with your hands. If in proper defensive stance Lin should have his hands up anyway to feel for the screener like a bugs antennas. Shump does it and gets over screens like a vet. He opens up to his ballhandler's weak hand just before Duncan gets to him. He was anticipating it, maybe not at the moment but he could feel the iso in the flow of the game. If STAT did show and cut off the lane, Lin's stuck with Tim at the elbow.

STAT - terrible, no effort. I know he was trying to let Jeremy back in the play (which leads me to believe he thought Lin was aware of the screen for whatever reason). What I don't know is why he's funneling the guard to help when he's the 5. He is the help. If he's scared of Duncan jumper on the pick and pop or a dive through the lane on a roll fine. You still have to slow down the ballhandler on the drive. You've got to bite the bullet on that one and foul or contain until you can pass the man off. Basic basketball fellas.

WOW! Thank you so much for your explanation. This is excellent and this is what I was looking for. So then, if you HAD to pick one of those options which one would be CLOSEST to how you would score this? I need you to pick at least one even if you don't completely agree with all of it.

And if there's something that still doesn't quite fit with your point of view, please let me know what you would change. Thanks a lot. You are awesome!

[ken819]

Lin - if you can't feel a 7 footer in your peripheral then you should be able to feel him with your hands. If in proper defensive stance Lin should have his hands up anyway to feel for the screener like a bugs antennas. Shump does it and gets over screens like a vet. He opens up to his ballhandler's weak hand just before Duncan gets to him. He was anticipating it, maybe not at the moment but he could feel the iso in the flow of the game. If STAT did show and cut off the lane, Lin's stuck with Tim at the elbow.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOGjTDOq6Y[/youtube]

Take a good look at the top where Duncan post screen on Shump and he gets over ? then how did Ginobili get open? seriously... it's like a twilight zone... did we watch the same game??? Shump was guarding Parker most of the game and Parker was scoring with ease with pullup jumpers or drive into lane easily with pick n rolls..

Amar'e doing what he does best being Mannequin again..although he did move a step..

[illRoso]

Lin - if you can't feel a 7 footer in your peripheral then you should be able to feel him with your hands. If in proper defensive stance Lin should have his hands up anyway to feel for the screener like a bugs antennas. Shump does it and gets over screens like a vet. He opens up to his ballhandler's weak hand just before Duncan gets to him. He was anticipating it, maybe not at the moment but he could feel the iso in the flow of the game. If STAT did show and cut off the lane, Lin's stuck with Tim at the elbow.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOGjTDOq6Y[/youtube]

Take a good look at the top where Duncan post screen on Shump and he gets over ? then how did Ginobili get open? seriously... it's like a twilight zone... did we watch the same game??? Shump was guarding Parker most of the game and Parker was scoring with ease with pullup jumpers or drive into lane easily with pick n rolls..

Amar'e doing what he does best being Mannequin again..although he did move a step..

A few things about that, it's a bad clip to start with. It has the player out of the frame for most of it. If you're trying to insinuate that Shumperty is routinely beguiled by screens one example won't prove it. Still doesn't address Lin's effort which wasn't fundamentally sound on the original play in question..and Lin strung the ballhandler out real in your clip. Parker just made a crazy play.

[illRoso]

Yup, the timing is exquisite. It's what a vet team who's been there and back multiple times has learned to do naturally.

I'd actually give Novak half a point Melo 1/6, Fields 1/6, Lin 1/6 and Amar'e a full (deserves 2).

Novak - the first rule of defense is never lose sight of the ball. Steve could've prob 3/4 his man since he was technically 1 pass away, especially on the drive and kick but he does a good job watching the play develop. As soon as his man clears the paint and he sees Tony Tim at the top of the key, he should be screaming that the lane is open to let those with their back to the paint know what's behind them. That is what real defensive communication is. It's magnificently executed though because the minute Bonner clears Tony goes.

Melo - Saw the whole play develop and was still late getting to the block. You need a clean, hard foul there to give the little man something the to think about and I doubt he yelled to STAT that he had no help.

Fields - see Melo

Lin - if you can't feel a 7 footer in your peripheral then you should be able to feel him with your hands. If in proper defensive stance Lin should have his hands up anyway to feel for the screener like a bugs antennas. Shump does it and gets over screens like a vet. He opens up to his ballhandler's weak hand just before Duncan gets to him. He was anticipating it, maybe not at the moment but he could feel the iso in the flow of the game. If STAT did show and cut off the lane, Lin's stuck with Tim at the elbow.

STAT - terrible, no effort. I know he was trying to let Jeremy back in the play (which leads me to believe he thought Lin was aware of the screen for whatever reason). What I don't know is why he's funneling the guard to help when he's the 5. He is the help. If he's scared of Duncan jumper on the pick and pop or a dive through the lane on a roll fine. You still have to slow down the ballhandler on the drive. You've got to bite the bullet on that one and foul or contain until you can pass the man off. Basic basketball fellas.

WOW! Thank you so much for your explanation. This is excellent and this is what I was looking for. So then, if you HAD to pick one of those options which one would be CLOSEST to how you would score this? I need you to pick at least one even if you don't completely agree with all of it.

And if there's something that still doesn't quite fit with your point of view, please let me know what you would change. Thanks a lot. You are awesome!

I guess c. is most apropriate..

[BBAL]

^
^

Agree wit basketboule's Novak-for-Chandler comment. If Chandler had been in the game and hypothetically blocked that shot, then Amare's defensive "grade" doesn't take a hit. I see where you're going with the grade stuff, and I appreciate the creativity, but grading individual performance within a group scheme (on a blame-only scale) is suspect.

The flip-side to this very old problem is that individually excellent defenders don't have a true metric to gauge their effectiveness in comparison to other great defenders. I believe they spend a lot of time an energy trying to solve this problem up at MIT at the Slaon Conference.

Having a bastardized metric that attempts to assign punitive blame for bad individual defense seems like an exercise valuable mainly for its healing qualities among an angry subset of frustrated fans.

I understand your concerns and you make valid points, but I disagree that it is as difficult as you say, and there's a worse system already in place.

For example, imagine that a player, Player A, successfully defends his man, in a one to man situation for 20 seconds and allows no penetration. The attacker then eventually gives up on the penetration, and the defender thus FORCES a pass. Another one of our players, player B then jumps in the players face FORCING the attacker to take a poor shot at the basket. The attacker misses, and the ball takes a lucky bounce and ends up in one of our players' hands, player C.

Currently only player C is credited with a rebound. Nobody else is credited with anything else. Player A and B get no credit for their defense even though all 3 players directly contributed to a turnover, and 1 possession won.

The +/- system is very flawed for individual contribution the simple fact that any player that gets substituted in, could play very bad, and may just simply benefit from the other 4 players going on a run, or substitutions by the other team who then play worse. Thus they get credited with + impact, when said player may have actually had a negative impact. That's why it's mainly use to determine combinations, not to track individual performances.

Some of the concerns you have would eventually even themselves out across time, plays and players.

It wouldn't be an exact science but over time, you would be able to take away two things:

- point of entry by the attacker. Eventually if you kept tracked of points allowed/forced passes, you would be able to detect which defender(s) the opponent prefers to attack
- which defender is playing the most active defense forcing the most passes, or defers. Which one of our defenders is most active.

You could compare it to an average, or average per possession.

[BBAL]

Yup, the timing is exquisite. It's what a vet team who's been there and back multiple times has learned to do naturally.

I'd actually give Novak half a point Melo 1/6, Fields 1/6, Lin 1/6 and Amar'e a full (deserves 2).

Novak - the first rule of defense is never lose sight of the ball. Steve could've prob 3/4 his man since he was technically 1 pass away, especially on the drive and kick but he does a good job watching the play develop. As soon as his man clears the paint and he sees Tony Tim at the top of the key, he should be screaming that the lane is open to let those with their back to the paint know what's behind them. That is what real defensive communication is. It's magnificently executed though because the minute Bonner clears Tony goes.

Melo - Saw the whole play develop and was still late getting to the block. You need a clean, hard foul there to give the little man something the to think about and I doubt he yelled to STAT that he had no help.

Fields - see Melo

Lin - if you can't feel a 7 footer in your peripheral then you should be able to feel him with your hands. If in proper defensive stance Lin should have his hands up anyway to feel for the screener like a bugs antennas. Shump does it and gets over screens like a vet. He opens up to his ballhandler's weak hand just before Duncan gets to him. He was anticipating it, maybe not at the moment but he could feel the iso in the flow of the game. If STAT did show and cut off the lane, Lin's stuck with Tim at the elbow.

STAT - terrible, no effort. I know he was trying to let Jeremy back in the play (which leads me to believe he thought Lin was aware of the screen for whatever reason). What I don't know is why he's funneling the guard to help when he's the 5. He is the help. If he's scared of Duncan jumper on the pick and pop or a dive through the lane on a roll fine. You still have to slow down the ballhandler on the drive. You've got to bite the bullet on that one and foul or contain until you can pass the man off. Basic basketball fellas.

WOW! Thank you so much for your explanation. This is excellent and this is what I was looking for. So then, if you HAD to pick one of those options which one would be CLOSEST to how you would score this? I need you to pick at least one even if you don't completely agree with all of it.

And if there's something that still doesn't quite fit with your point of view, please let me know what you would change. Thanks a lot. You are awesome!

I guess c. is most apropriate..

I would have picked the same choice. You and I seem to be on the same page. Problem is, clearly the majority don't quite agree....so I'm looking forward to more responses then maybe eventually eliminate some of the options.

Thank you for taking the time.

[vallen]

somebody needs to edit in a red cape and amare yelling "ole!"

[Purdman]

Lin theoretically could have gotten over the screen quicker, but even if he was only slightly bumped by Duncan, Parker was already way past him, and Lin can't catch Parker. So Lin is basically blameless, especially if the teams philosophy says fight over the screen.

If that is the case, then Amare is supposed to hedge and help until Lin can get back on his man. Instead he acts like a bullfighter and ole's as Parker goes right by. He obviously has to do better, and you know if that was Tyson he would have been shuffling his feet and at least been able to challenge the shot. This is why Amare is bad at defense, in a nutshell. Slow feet, slow reactions, mentally slow.

Fields has to stay glued to his man in the close corner, because that is the easy pass for Parker to make and a deadly shot. If he helps it is an easy kick to Ginobili for a wide open corner 3.

Melo could have helped harder. I think Jeffries would have been ready for that and maybe been in position for the charge (probably not because Amare did nothing to slow Parker, the fastest guy in the NBA). But Melo has to know that he is guarding Kawhi Leonard, who is not a shooter, so he has to have a foot in the paint ready to help. He seems to concerned with Leonard. Not smart D.

I can't tell if Novak is guarding Splitter or Bonner, but my guess is it is Bonner. In that case, he has to worry about the 3 ball, and also, from where he is as the play develops, it'd be impossible for him to catch up to Parker on the way to the rim.

In conclusion, I'd say Amar'e is 90-99% to blame here, because his letting Parker blow by him basically preemptively derailed the possibility of any help from others. Melo gets 1-10% for not being in the paint when his man is a non shooter in the weakside corner. Lin maybe could have made it tougher for Parker before the screen...

This is really a beautiful offense picking on the Knicks weak spot...Amar'e defending the pick and roll.

[BBAL]

Lin theoretically could have gotten over the screen quicker, but even if he was only slightly bumped by Duncan, Parker was already way past him, and Lin can't catch Parker. So Lin is basically blameless, especially if the teams philosophy says fight over the screen.

If that is the case, then Amare is supposed to hedge and help until Lin can get back on his man. Instead he acts like a bullfighter and ole's as Parker goes right by. He obviously has to do better, and you know if that was Tyson he would have been shuffling his feet and at least been able to challenge the shot. This is why Amare is bad at defense, in a nutshell. Slow feet, slow reactions, mentally slow.

Fields has to stay glued to his man in the close corner, because that is the easy pass for Parker to make and a deadly shot. If he helps it is an easy kick to Ginobili for a wide open corner 3.

Melo could have helped harder. I think Jeffries would have been ready for that and maybe been in position for the charge (probably not because Amare did nothing to slow Parker, the fastest guy in the NBA). But Melo has to know that he is guarding Kawhi Leonard, who is not a shooter, so he has to have a foot in the paint ready to help. He seems to concerned with Leonard. Not smart D.

I can't tell if Novak is guarding Splitter or Bonner, but my guess is it is Bonner. In that case, he has to worry about the 3 ball, and also, from where he is as the play develops, it'd be impossible for him to catch up to Parker on the way to the rim.

In conclusion, I'd say Amar'e is 90-99% to blame here, because his letting Parker blow by him basically preemptively derailed the possibility of any help from others. Melo gets 1-10% for not being in the paint when his man is a non shooter in the weakside corner. Lin maybe could have made it tougher for Parker before the screen...

This is really a beautiful offense picking on the Knicks weak spot...Amar'e defending the pick and roll.

Ok I love your post too, but we're getting ahead of ourselves. I disagree with the part in bold because of what I had in mind. Would you agree, that at the point the most immediate duty for any and ALL players closest to the basket is to prevent the points from being scored?

The way I look at it, is if Fields leaves his man to come defend and forces a pass, then he gets CREDITED with a FORCED PASS. But that's further down the line.

We cannot assume the other player would score because that never had a chance to happen. But Fields or Melo coming over to FORCE a pass, would at least temporarily prevent the points from being scored.

This creates opportunities for:

-a bad pass by the attacker
-a turnover by the attacker
-a steal from one of our players
-a missed shot by the pass receiver
-takes time off the clock


All of these things are preferable to continuing to guard his man and allowed points scored. Would you disagree?

So basically what you are describing is an entirely separate event. That would be graded separate. In that situation, his man may be wide open, and that's an entirely new dilemma...should Fields still be held responsible if his man was wide open due to him DOUBLE teaming, and FORCING a pass?

Yeah...its' complicated. But I think as a group we made progress.


And yes Amare is definitely responsible. The question then becomes, how do you grade it. Do you credit him with:

a) a "blow by", which is a separate stat, and put the "points allowed" on the final two defenders
b) all the "points allowed" and a "blow by"
c) a "blow "by and a portion of the points allowed"

?

[Purdman]

Lin theoretically could have gotten over the screen quicker, but even if he was only slightly bumped by Duncan, Parker was already way past him, and Lin can't catch Parker. So Lin is basically blameless, especially if the teams philosophy says fight over the screen.

If that is the case, then Amare is supposed to hedge and help until Lin can get back on his man. Instead he acts like a bullfighter and ole's as Parker goes right by. He obviously has to do better, and you know if that was Tyson he would have been shuffling his feet and at least been able to challenge the shot. This is why Amare is bad at defense, in a nutshell. Slow feet, slow reactions, mentally slow.

Fields has to stay glued to his man in the close corner, because that is the easy pass for Parker to make and a deadly shot. If he helps it is an easy kick to Ginobili for a wide open corner 3.

Melo could have helped harder. I think Jeffries would have been ready for that and maybe been in position for the charge (probably not because Amare did nothing to slow Parker, the fastest guy in the NBA). But Melo has to know that he is guarding Kawhi Leonard, who is not a shooter, so he has to have a foot in the paint ready to help. He seems to concerned with Leonard. Not smart D.

I can't tell if Novak is guarding Splitter or Bonner, but my guess is it is Bonner. In that case, he has to worry about the 3 ball, and also, from where he is as the play develops, it'd be impossible for him to catch up to Parker on the way to the rim.

In conclusion, I'd say Amar'e is 90-99% to blame here, because his letting Parker blow by him basically preemptively derailed the possibility of any help from others. Melo gets 1-10% for not being in the paint when his man is a non shooter in the weakside corner. Lin maybe could have made it tougher for Parker before the screen...

This is really a beautiful offense picking on the Knicks weak spot...Amar'e defending the pick and roll.

Ok I love your post too, but we're getting ahead of ourselves. I disagree with the part in bold because of what I had in mind. Would you agree, that at the point the most immediate duty for any and ALL players closest to the basket is to prevent the points from being scored?

The way I look at it, is if Fields leaves his man to come defend and forces a pass, then he gets CREDITED with a FORCED PASS. But that's further down the line.

We cannot assume the other player would score because that never had a chance to happen. But Fields or Melo coming over to FORCE a pass, would at least temporarily prevent the points from being scored.

This creates opportunities for:

-a bad pass by the attacker
-a turnover by the attacker
-a steal from one of our players
-a missed shot by the pass receiver
-takes time off the clock


All of these things are preferable to continuing to guard his man and allowed points scored. Would you disagree?

So basically what you are describing is an entirely separate event. That would be graded separate. In that situation, his man may be wide open, and that's an entirely new dilemma...should Fields still be held responsible if his man was wide open due to him DOUBLE teaming, and FORCING a pass?

Yeah...its' complicated. But I think as a group we made progress.

I see what you're saying but I don't know. In that case, why shouldn't all players just guard the guy with the ball. Clearly that is the wrong thing to do...

Everyone can't be the help. There are certain responsibilities and defensive assignments. You don't leave shooters wide open for three. In this scenario Amar'e was responsible for slowing down the penetration. If what you are saying is the way to go about it, then at the very beginning of the play, Melo, Amar'e, Fields and Novak shuold have all rushed to stand under the basketb, disregarding their responsibility of guarding their men. That's not how it works. Certain guys shuold be there to help (mostly from the weak side), and certain guys need to stick to their men who are in dangerous positions (strong side corner,). Either way it is made moot by Amare failing to slow Parker at all, because it was impossible for Fields to help, since he was on the ball side he needed to stay close to his man (at least at first, as the play was developing). Melo is a different story becasue he could have hedged more toward the paint since his man was on weak side, far away from the ball and thus a much more dangerous and difficult pass to make. He should have been in a better position to help, with a foot in the paint. Fields has to basically deny his man the pass, or close to it because that's an easy pass for Parker to make off the pick and roll.

It's like option A is the driving layup, which Amar'e was supposed to stop, option b is a pullup jumper, option c might be Manu in the corner if Fields helps too much, option d would be Duncan on the pop, and option e and F are the weakside shooters.