The Argument for Trading Nash

[lilfishi22]

Trade NAsh because he makes us better. That is essentially what you are saying.

Trading Nash makes us better than him walking. If he signs the 2 year extension the Suns are offering before the deadline then we'll all stop talking about it.

More talk will follow. Nash on a 2 year extension a lot more valuable than a half season rental Nash.

[RunDogGun]

Nash isn't up for an extension. That is why he said it will be weird to experience FA, since he hasn't yet.

Well not fully because we signed him so fast when he was a FA.

[JohnVancouver]

I'm okay with re-explaining on how I obtained the very low percentages of top 10 picks that actually contribute to winning a title on the team that *drafted* them, if needed. Really, the chances are near the same as the "hopes and dreams" as all-star players coming to Phoenix next year and trying to make it deep in the playoffs.

That was a great read, that post you're referring to. You be interested in reworking it - or not if you think it stands as is - as a guest columnist piece for the From-Ashes blog?
It's a really good point well-supported by research.

One thing about draft picks and young talent - Bostons sucked hard and collected young talent, then gave it all up for KG. Even then, they had to go deeeep into taxland to put the Big 3 together, and they frankly lucked out with Rondo.

If there was a surefire way to build a champion team ..... yes, exactly

[thamadkant]

I would only keep Nash if he will accept a cheap contract and if the Suns can get another couple of All-Stars to make another run for the ring... but the Suns winning the No.1 pick has a greater chance of happening so, this is pretty much hopes and dreams....

Let's expand your second sentence to match the the purpose behind your first sentence.

"but the Suns winning the No.1 pick with that No.1 pick being able to be a key piece in a legitimate contender team [...]"

I'm okay with re-explaining on how I obtained the very low percentages of top 10 picks that actually contribute to winning a title on the team that *drafted* them, if needed. Really, the chances are near the same as the "hopes and dreams" as all-star players coming to Phoenix next year and trying to make it deep in the playoffs.

Suns are fighting with Jazz as 10th/11th seed in the west..... this is definitely a NO GO Zone for a team that doesnt have a young core that is still developing... for teams with a couple of young stars and relatively young group....

Jared Dudley, Markieff Morris, Robin Lopez (lol j/k), maybe Aaron Brooks if we retain him, ummm, next year's draft pick, haven't reached their potential yet. No franchise player, maybe we'll get lucky in this draft (>implying luck doesn't have a significant factor on drafting good players) though. I agree overall though, not a good thing as a whole going forward. Going center or guard is a different story though.

Suns are ensuring they will be mediocre for an additional 3-4 years by taking the slow method of rebuilding....

Nash retiring with the Suns...still having a CHANCE to compete....the higher likelihood that we will suck for the next 5-10 years in the age of Durant, Dwight, Griffin, Lebron, and Rose irregardless of our roster.... at the cost of rebuilding slower is something that I'm personally okay and willing to be patient with.

and again the other side of the fans who want to remain competitive has a reason also... which is they dont want to develop a losing culture... well finishing 10th/11th or best case 8th spot aspiration to me is also advocating a semi-losing culture by accepting mediocrity and "bare minimum" as acceptable...

This isn't a valid argument. The whole "fostering a losing culture" spiel applies to team's that PURPOSELY lose (something I am vehemently against doing) for the sake of acquiring high draft picks. Trading star players for youth and/or developing the younger, less experienced players (in results probably more lost games) is not propagating a losing culture as long as their intentions are to play their hardest and aim to win every night, and is something I'm not opposed to at all.

"for me, I'd trade in a multiple playoff appearances for a 1 time championship..... when you see that banner up in the stadium ceiling and remembering you witnessed that team win that ring/banner..... the feeling is 100x far greater than just seeing the team compete just in the playoffs...."

Looking at the past through a all-or-nothing telescope is not being fair. I think I know what you mean, but it's not as simple as just "sacrificing" what happened in order to win a championship.
You can judge by overall success in hindsight, but all that you can give a team in the present is a CHANCE to compete and succeed. Also, a championship is a championship. But seeing Nash win a ring with Phoenix is probably 100x more gratifying then seeing a douchebag like Lebron win a championship with the Suns (occurring somewhere in the 3000th dimension of the universe), but how would I know?

1. Regarding what i stated about picks... I mentioned No.1 pick... not just top 10 pick. I agree that a mere top 10 pick isn't too impactful to creating a contender, but a No.1 is different beast altogether.


2. When I mentioned 10th/11th seed and 8th seed as main aspiration being an acceptance of mediocrity, on that passage of statement, I did mentioned "to me".... so I strongly believe that a team aiming for mediocrity is accepting to lose... again thats "to me".

In regards to fostering a losing culture.... its all perspective.
Do you think the players themselves go out there and play poorly in purpose to cause their team to lose?
I play sports and I absolutely HATE losing no matter what, now I can just imagine professional sportsmen who put in so much more to being elite.... they would HATE losing too.

So of course, from the players perspective, there is no such thing as tanking..... they do their best to play well..

but for the personnel with power?

Coach.... well, a coach wants nothing but best from his players.... but he has the power to make dramatic shifts to a team's chances by making decisions.... no coach want a losing record.... unless people above him want him to lose in purpose.

From the GM.... well, a GM can foster a losing culture by being complete INEPT in his job... he can be inept by simply being ignorant to making a good talented team, but he can also be INEPT by simply making bad decisions consistently....

From the ownership.... ownership can see success in terms of MONEY being made by the franchise and the amount of wins and achievements the team are able to produce.... but an ownership who simply wants to make money first and not caring too much about championship chances well... thats fostering mediocrity.... and to me and to A LOT of people, mediocrity is almost as bad as losing.

Of course arguments can be said that championship translate to more money, of course.... but if championship is out of the question due to the competition, but somehow the team has a personality or a bunch of players that people want to see first hand... ownership can definitely foster losing culture by holding the team back from improving for the long run just to milk the situation.

Basically no fans want to tank for the sake of tanking.... the players are pretty much anti-tank, they get benched if they purposely play bad.... but if the FO is clearly with holding decisions and actions that benefits the team long term, to me, thats treason to the fans and to the players... and to the basketball team entity itself...

I'm babbling on, but I had a point somewhere lol....
And here it is..
the TANK supporters do NOT support losing culture one bit... but sadly the sports business mechanism reward losers by giving them bigger chance to accumulate talent. Of course its highly debatable if they should pursue this path, but sometimes you might just have to take advantage of the situation and take your chances.... and this year is the BEST time to take advantage of the system... thats all the tank supporters see....


Wow, Im mentally tired from work, I tried to read my own post and got lost... sorry lol

[Saberestar]

In NBA, the most difficult thing is to have stars in your team. If you have one, you are blessed, and you do not trade him for "nothing".I see the point of trading him, of course, but if we have Nash, we have the point guard position solved for the next 2 years and that is great.I think we have to fix the other positions in our team, with FA, draft picks or trades, specially SG and PF.
We only have to forget his age,and all this stuff about trading him disappears. He always exceeds expectations.

About Diaw,I think he can be very productive, better than Lopez for sure.

[JohnVancouver]

Nash and Chilly for Bayless, Jose and the pick. Jose expiring after this season. Mocve Lopez for a later pick and take a Wroten or other PG, bring him along under Jose so he's not throw to the wolves the first year.

Win/Win

Wrong. Jose expires after the 2012-2013 season. He is owed $10.5M next season.

Not so fast - When we say "expiring" we usually mean, this is last season on current deal. So - after this season, Jose is expiring, no? he will be in last year of his deal and dealable.

[JohnVancouver]

But while Kerrsed and I may be of two minds semantically, we speak as one when it comes to Diaw - CHA won't take back any contract we have to unload Doris. I wouldn't' hate him here to run with the 2nd unit as point forward/center but not at 9 million.

I was happy to see him playing well earlier this year but he's really blimped up form the pics I've seen - maybe he's an emotional eater or something. CHA woudl do that to you

[Kerrsed]

I was happy to see him playing well earlier this year but he's really blimped up form the pics I've seen - maybe he's an emotional eater or something. CHA woudl do that to you

Wrong again. He's not a emotional eater, hes a competitive eater. He's preparing to take on Kobioshi in the off-season.



Dude is starting to reach that Oliver Miller level!




It reminds me of Michael Sweetney:



And in 2012:

[JohnVancouver]

Answer is obvious - Sweeney ate Miller


but who did Doris eat ......

[Moochthemonkey]

I'm okay with re-explaining on how I obtained the very low percentages of top 10 picks that actually contribute to winning a title on the team that *drafted* them, if needed. Really, the chances are near the same as the "hopes and dreams" as all-star players coming to Phoenix next year and trying to make it deep in the playoffs.

That was a great read, that post you're referring to. You be interested in reworking it - or not if you think it stands as is - as a guest columnist piece for the From-Ashes blog?
It's a really good point well-supported by research.

haha sure- I would be honored. There are some points that I should have discussed though. I cannot remember what the context of my post was other than it was a response to one of TheMan44's flames. The statistics that I provided as a standalone may be misleading- although the chances that a top 10 pick actually lead to a championship in some form of the other are statistically substantially low, one must also consider that only 1 out of 30 (or 29, or 27, depending on how far back you go) actually win the championship year... Beyond that, every championship team from 1990 forward with the exception to 2001 and 2002 Lakers HAVE used a #1-10 player as a piece to building their championship squad; some were more involved than others. For example, the 2004 Pistons had Darko (a non-contributor) and Ben Wallace who was practically a throw in from the Grant hill S&T. On the other hand the Chicago Bulls first 3peat squad was largely comprised of early draft picks, similar to OKC right now, but the Bulls picks were more spread apart. So while I think it's not the best move to shoot for a complete rebuild ASAP (seriously, once Nash is gone, there will be several opportunities to land in the top ten lottery) it's rather myopic to dismiss the importance of drafted players. Which I might have did in that post, again I can't remember the exact context. It's something that I'd like to expand upon once I feel particularly inspired. But feel free to use that post on your site though man. I certainly appreciate your interest.

stuff

Well i had a long post in the process until my browser crashed

anyways- good post man. Thanks for providing some insight on "tanking" from your perspective- you certainly addressed some ideas that I never considered to be quite honest. While I cannot bring myself to agree, it atleast makes such a notion more respectable IMO.

regarding 1.)

whether it's a #1 pick or #10 pick doesn't really make a difference...the research indicates it's actually the later picks in this range that ended up making impact on a championship team.

for example:

Tim Duncan was the only #1 pick from the 90s to win a championship on the team that drafted him...
I believe Hakeem Olajuwon was the only #1 pick in the 80s to do the same.

that's a 10% chance

even if you are the worst team in the NBA, you only have a 25% chance of actually acquiring the first pick

Multiply them together, that's a .025% chance of obtaining "that" player

I believe the chances that the Suns have with keeping Nash & the core group, adding a serviceable rookie from this years draft, and then signing a free agent (or two) is more or less than .025%

[JohnVancouver]

write it up and send it to me, kerrsed or soles

my email is buck.modernettes@gmail.com

I said 'rewrite' only because it was just a post on a message board and not for broad publication, dind't mean there was anything wrong with it.

Anyway, we'd love to run it - let us know how to credit it

cheers

J

[NashtyNas]

What I don't understand is this.
If Nash doesn't WANT to be traded, then why?
If he had a list of teams and went to the FO and said I want to go to one of these teams because I want to win a ring, the FO would surely trade him to one of those teams and accomodate his demands, there's zero question about that.

The fact of the matter is, we're not getting much for a 38YO Nash who's expiring, even if the man is leading the league in assists and nearly taking a bunch of scrubs the the playoffs in the West YET again.

The offers have been mediocre at BEST, with Collison and the Indy first being our best bet as a 'rebuild' package, and frankly that's far less enticing than say letting Nash retire a Sun. If he wants that, he has deserved it, and we MUST give it to him. Adding a middling prospect and a late first doesn't warrant trading Nash, not in a real Suns fans book, and not for the front office who's make the decisions.

It just won't happen unless he asks for it or we get a deal where we can't say no. Is that deal out there? Sure. A team like Memphis may come calling at the deadline with a Conley/Mayo for Nash deal simply because they couldn't dream of having a player like Nash play there even for a few games in their wet dreams. Imagine the amount of $ they would make with a playoff run spearheaded by Nash? Randolph back and Nash running the show, they could be very relevant in the playoffs.

I believe that's the type of offer it would take for us to move Nash, or simply other expirings and a pick if he asks for it, but other than that, like I said, it's not happening.

[unbeheld2011]

The heart of the matter is that those who want him gone feel no loyalty to him and it's sad. There's some in this board that would trade him for a bag of chips because that's at least 1 step closer somehow to a championship. Phoenix is a small market team and hasn't been relevant since the KJ/Barkley days and Nash brought us back to mainstream NBA. He could have gone to every other team before he signed his extension but chose to stick it thick and through because he truly believed in his commitment to bring us our first championship. What did he get afterwards? Sarver driving Amare out, bad contracts handed out, and still he soldiers on setting up an excellent example to young players on how to be a professional in this league (instead of crying for a trade to a contender like all other nba stars). Still performs at an elite level with a bunch of scrubs and at the end of the day when all he demands back is loyalty the very same fans are willing to flip him for some donuts and change because getting that 15th pick + random role player is REALLY GOING TO BRING US OUR RING. Seriously.. if Nash wants to stay and retire then let him retire here you ungrateful fans.

[RondoToKG]

This pic is on the front page. Whats up with his neck? lol

[SunsRback4Good]

This pic is on the front page. Whats up with his neck? lol

He looks hot, don't hate the player hate the game, bra.

[thamadkant]

I rather keep Nash now and extend him for a MLE type money.
However I still want to Get in to the top 7 picks.

How bout we put Nash on the "shelf" last 10 games considering Suns are fighting for 10th spot, play Morris 34 mins a game and Lope too, this way we have a rested Nash with less wear next season, a more developed Morris and Lopez and a top 7 pick. Win win