Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[Marlo Stanfield]

But even their detractors say all they do is score. Isn't that the best play. Wouldn't a playmaking pg suffice

The problem with that can be seen on a team like Chicago. Their wings are solid, but Derrick Rose has to create everything. Shut Rose down and you shut Chicago down. When the offense is completely dependent on one guy, it's a recipe for disaster.

But even chicago doesn't have a 17ppg sg and a 17ppg sf. They just have the SF. They have rolled out brewer / injured rip at sg. Demar & HB both have better iso or 1 & 1 ability than any wing player on chicago I think. Agree? Once again, demar isn't a hopeless play maker. hes had 4-5-7 ast games this yr.

He's not hopeless, but he's not even close to being good enough at it. You're drafting Barnes as another chip to get closer to a title. So now you look at who the top teams have at the wings and you see Wade/James, Harden/Durant, Bryant/Artest, Kidd (defends the 2)/Marion (defends the 3), Brewer/Deng, etc. They may not all be great offensively, but ALL of those guys can lock you up and we all know, defense wins championships.

[DreamTeam09]

it won't be that bad if we decide to sign steve nash, it will help both of them, otherwise, have a competent point guard and casey's system is more about setting screens and roll, instead of one man show type of offense, so I don't see a big issue with demar/barnes lineup (I cant imagine Demar not learning anything to help improve his half-court offensive skillset for next season), plus, its fortunate that Bargs and Val are both underrated passer for their positions, that can compensate a little bit for the lack of passing skills from the wings. There's so many cuts, so many picks set., that's where the offense will flow. Too bad, its Demar that we have, if we have Harrison Beals for the wings spot, DAMN I'd jizz.

I expect that's simply due to personnel. We don't exactly have the ball handlers to break down a defense. I'd expect our offense to change as our team gets better.

I don't think our offense is going to change at all, our core personnel fits that type of game and thats what casey is use to from Dallas.

[nahom1319]

But even their detractors say all they do is score. Isn't that the best play. Wouldn't a playmaking pg suffice

The problem with that can be seen on a team like Chicago. Their wings are solid, but Derrick Rose has to create everything. Shut Rose down and you shut Chicago down. When the offense is completely dependent on one guy, it's a recipe for disaster.

But even chicago doesn't have a 17ppg sg and a 17ppg sf. They just have the SF. They have rolled out brewer / injured rip at sg. Demar & HB both have better iso or 1 & 1 ability than any wing player on chicago I think. Agree? Once again, demar isn't a hopeless play maker. hes had 4-5-7 ast games this yr.

Demar is actually at 16 ppg 1.9 ast and 41%....and Harrison has yet to play a game in the nba so lets hold off on projections just yet... A demar and HB tandem simply isn't all that great come post season when teams up the anti on defense. A Beal HB tandem works better as does a Beal Demar tandem..

[fredericklove]

Edit: To be honest I'm not all that thrilled with HB anyway. I said it at the beginning of the season and I'll say it again... What really separates HB from Klieza anyway? Youth???

Lol. Really, bro?

[DreamTeam09]

But even chicago doesn't have a 17ppg sg and a 17ppg sf. They just have the SF. They have rolled out brewer / injured rip at sg. Demar & HB both have better iso or 1 & 1 ability than any wing player on chicago I think. Agree? Once again, demar isn't a hopeless play maker. hes had 4-5-7 ast games this yr.

He's not hopeless, but he's not even close to being good enough at it. You're drafting Barnes as another chip to get closer to a title. So now you look at who the top teams have at the wings and you see Wade/James, Harden/Durant, Bryant/Artest, Kidd (defends the 2)/Marion (defends the 3), Brewer/Deng, etc. They may not all be great offensively, but ALL of those guys can lock you up and we all know, defense wins championships.

Jason Terry lit up every single one of those players not on his team. Demar & Barnes do not project to be poor defenders and we have our lockdown defender in JJ. I have no problems rolling the ball with Demar, Barnes, Bargnani. 2 of them are getting 40+. 60+ easily when things are rolling. We don't run the offense where we are wing dependent to make plays anyway. We run multiple sets of screens, something both Demar & HB excel at.

[nahom1319]

I don't think our offense is going to change at all, our core personnel fits that type of game and thats what casey is use to from Dallas.

Yes because Casey has NEVER coached before joining Dallas... He simply is using a system offensively that fits his current personnel. We have no one other then Bayless and Barbossa who are able to attack.

[Marlo Stanfield]

But even chicago doesn't have a 17ppg sg and a 17ppg sf. They just have the SF. They have rolled out brewer / injured rip at sg. Demar & HB both have better iso or 1 & 1 ability than any wing player on chicago I think. Agree? Once again, demar isn't a hopeless play maker. hes had 4-5-7 ast games this yr.

He's not hopeless, but he's not even close to being good enough at it. You're drafting Barnes as another chip to get closer to a title. So now you look at who the top teams have at the wings and you see Wade/James, Harden/Durant, Bryant/Artest, Kidd (defends the 2)/Marion (defends the 3), Brewer/Deng, etc. They may not all be great offensively, but ALL of those guys can lock you up and we all know, defense wins championships.

Jason Terry lit up every single one of those players not on his team. Demar & Barnes do not project to be poor defenders and we have our lockdown defender in JJ. I have no problems rolling the ball with Demar, Barnes, Bargnani. 2 of them are getting 40+. 60+ easily when things are rolling. We don't run the offense where we are wing dependent to make plays anyway. We run multiple sets of screens, something both Demar & HB excel at.

Jason Terry has great handles, he used to play the point. DeMar and Harrison would have real problems going up against any of those combo's.

[nahom1319]

Edit: To be honest I'm not all that thrilled with HB anyway. I said it at the beginning of the season and I'll say it again... What really separates HB from Klieza anyway? Youth???

Lol. Really, bro?

Yeah I'm being dead serious man.... I honestly don't see much other then younger and better ball handling. Its not a knock on Barnes its just they do the same things: shoot the 3ball, straight line drives, occasional rebounding efforts. Does Barnes have the chance to be better yes... but i dunno how much better.

[DreamTeam09]

JT does have great handles, or atleast better than Demar & HB. I think Demar & HB will be able to hold their own on the wings predicated on them living at the line.

[Marlo Stanfield]

JT does have great handles, or atleast better than Demar & HB. I think Demar & HB will be able to hold their own on the wings predicated on them living at the line.

Yeah but remember living at the line requires getting into the paint with all of those hands reaching in poking the ball loose. Plus, it's the NBA so you need to be a superstar to get to the line as many times as you deserve with these amazing refs.

[fredericklove]

Edit: To be honest I'm not all that thrilled with HB anyway. I said it at the beginning of the season and I'll say it again... What really separates HB from Klieza anyway? Youth???

Lol. Really, bro?

Yeah I'm being dead serious man.... I honestly don't see much other then younger and better ball handling. Its not a knock on Barnes its just they do the same things: shoot the 3ball, straight line drives, occasional rebounding efforts. Does Barnes have the chance to be better yes... but i dunno how much better.

Lol I guess we will have to find out next season.

[fredericklove]

What you guys think of Beal & Chandler duo? List the strength and weakness.

[Undefeated]

Yeah I'm being dead serious man.... I honestly don't see much other then younger and better ball handling. Its not a knock on Barnes its just they do the same things: shoot the 3ball, straight line drives, occasional rebounding efforts. Does Barnes have the chance to be better yes... but i dunno how much better.

Barnes is a dynamic shot creator which is something that cannot be said for Kleiza. Besides the two being able to drill shots from deep, Barnes is a lethal mid-range shooter who's one of the best in the draft. He already has a relentless array of moves to create in the mid-range. Kleiza isn't even a threat from the mid-range to keep the defense honest. But what really separates Barnes from Kleiza is his ability to create. Kleiza is only a spot-up shooter and can't be trusted to create for himself because every time he sets up in a triple-threat position, he gets called for a travel for shuffling his feet or gets the ball poked when attempting to put the ball on the deck for a dribble-drive. Say what you will about Barnes' handles, but he's very good at creating for himself out of the triple-threat and side screen-and-roll with John Henson. Here's something about Barnes creating the majority of his own baskets despite playing with Kendall Marshall second in the nation in assists. Interesting, eh?

http://www.tarheelblue.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021512aaa.html

However, the biggest area that goes heavily unnoticed for Barnes and would greatly help the Raptors is his ability to create off the angle side screen-and-roll. I've seen Barnes plenty of times scoring off the pick-and-roll as a last resort when UNC fails to run the cross screen to post for their bigs. Even when Kendall Marshall can't get the entry pass to their bigs, UNC relies on Barnes to initiate the offense with a screen-and-roll. Not one of our wings sans Calderon can remotely run a screen-and-roll effectively, and that's a major problem when the screen-and-roll is the most heavily used offensive set in the league. It'd help to have a guy like Barnes who can run the screen-and-roll since he at least knows how bait the defender into screen thus opening a plethora of options for him and the team there on out.

[Dr Positivity]

You finally have Lillard on your radar . Good man! I have so much respect for the guy. He is the poster boy for class and work ethic!

I'm super high on Lillard. I have him as a better prospect than Barnes, MKG, or Beal. If BC is set on drafting PG or SF that's who I take.

lol "PG or SF" as one group, I mean

[nahom1319]

Yeah I'm being dead serious man.... I honestly don't see much other then younger and better ball handling. Its not a knock on Barnes its just they do the same things: shoot the 3ball, straight line drives, occasional rebounding efforts. Does Barnes have the chance to be better yes... but i dunno how much better.

Barnes is a dynamic shot creator which is something that cannot be said for Kleiza. Besides the two being able to drill shots from deep, Barnes is a lethal mid-range shooter who's one of the best in the draft. He already has a relentless array of moves to create in the mid-range. Kleiza isn't even a threat from the mid-range to keep the defense honest. But what really separates Barnes from Kleiza is his ability to create. Kleiza is only a spot-up shooter and can't be trusted to create for himself because every time he sets up in a triple-threat position, he gets called for a travel for shuffling his feet or gets the ball poked when attempting to put the ball on the deck for a dribble-drive. Say what you will about Barnes' handles, but he's very good at creating for himself out of the triple-threat and side screen-and-roll with John Henson. Here's something about Barnes creating the majority of his own baskets despite playing with Kendall Marshall second in the nation in assists. Interesting, eh?

http://www.tarheelblue.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/021512aaa.html

However, the biggest area that goes heavily unnoticed for Barnes and would greatly help the Raptors is his ability to create off the angle side screen-and-roll. I've seen Barnes plenty of times scoring off the pick-and-roll as a last resort when UNC fails to run the cross screen to post for their bigs. Even when Kendall Marshall can't get the entry pass to their bigs, UNC relies on Barnes to initiate the offense with a screen-and-roll. Not one of our wings sans Calderon can remotely run a screen-and-roll effectively, and that's a major problem when the screen-and-roll is the most heavily used offensive set in the league. It'd help to have a guy like Barnes who can run the screen-and-roll since he at least knows how bait the defender into screen thus opening a plethora of options for him and the team there on out.

Saw the link.... it was a very small sample size.

Okay so lets ignore my klieza comparison for a second here because to be frank i've probably only watched 5 of his games and have come away unimpressed. Lets assume he hits his max potential were looking at Carmelo minus a some athleticism maybe throw in better focus. I duno maybe its just my personal aesthetics, I like stat stuffers and multiple skills.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Is that a wish list for Barnes? His mid-range numbers have been terrible, his FG% drops with each dribble and he leads the Heels in ball-handling turnovers. If he only shot 3s off the catch he'd be a better prospect.

[JamesNaismith]

I really wish I knew what BC's draft board looked like and who he was high on at this point.

[C_Money]

The NCAA tournament is going to determine whether Barnes is for real or not. Usually the guys who can't create their own shot will struggle in these playoff style games.

[fredericklove]

Is that a wish list for Barnes? His mid-range numbers have been terrible, his FG% drops with each dribble and he leads the Heels in ball-handling turnovers. If he only shot 3s off the catch he'd be a better prospect.

You remind me of Chad Ford, using numbers to make lame bias. You watch the game, you see him expanding his offensive repertoire, and makes improvement on all aspect of his offense compared to last season. From a shooter, to putting the ball on the floor. You and your numbers used on making bias on his game? Mid-range numbers aren't stellar but he's improving, he's not regressing. And so he leads in TO, like what? 0.1 over Zeller in TOs, wow big deal. A lot of players lead in high T.O. Beal has 2.1 TO, Lamb has 2.0, Qmiller has 1.8 and PJ3 has 1.7. Even Derrick Williams in wildcats days had 1.9 TO (freshman) and 2.6 TO (2nd year). So what's your point? high usage leads to rise in TO, that's inevitable. It's not like he's screwing up every possession. So stop overrate these TOs. How is he a better prospect if he only shot 3s off the catch? That's just a shooter with limited skillset, no improvement whatsoever. You just care about numbers, that's short-sighted and narrow-minded.

[Undefeated]

Is that a wish list for Barnes? His mid-range numbers have been terrible, his FG% drops with each dribble and he leads the Heels in ball-handling turnovers. If he only shot 3s off the catch he'd be a better prospect.

You remind me of Chad Ford, using numbers to make lame bias. You watch the game, you see him expanding his offensive repertoire, and makes improvement on all aspect of his offense compared to last season. From a shooter, to putting the ball on the floor. You and your numbers used on making bias on his game? Mid-range numbers aren't stellar but he's improving, he's not regressing. And so he leads in TO, like what? 0.1 over Zeller in TOs, wow big deal. A lot of players lead in high T.O. Beal has 2.1 TO, Lamb has 2.0, Qmiller has 1.8 and PJ3 has 1.7. Even Derrick Williams in wildcats days had 1.9 TO (freshman) and 2.6 TO (2nd year). So what's your point? high usage leads to rise in TO, that's inevitable. It's not like he's screwing up every possession. So stop overrate these TOs. How is he a better prospect if he only shot 3s off the catch? That's just a shooter with limited skillset, no improvement whatsoever. You just care about numbers, that's short-sighted and narrow-minded.

Tell me about it. With John Henson and Tyler Zeller and their defenders always camping under the rim on almost every play, it just makes the painted area that much more pack than it already is with the offense UNC runs. And it's not like Barnes' turnovers are unforced. I'm okay with his turnovers for now because it's from attacking the rim off the pick-and-roll in a packed half-court setting than just settling for long jumpers.