Andrea Bargnani

[Relentless88]

Rebounding should be looked at as a team stat. The Raptors are in the middle of the pack (exactly 16th) in rebounding differential. They are one of 17 teams with a positive rebound differential. It's not great, but it's also not that bad (better than Dallas, Portland, Philly, Atlanta, and Boston among others). Bargnani doesn't get rebounds, but if he boxes out and his teammates are getting them, then it's not that large a problem.

You might as well say "scoring should be looked at as a team stat, so Joel Anthony's offense is fine"! "Defense is a team effort, so forget that Boozer doesn't put any effort in"!

No. You can't do that. You're selectively talking away a huge player flaw. Andrea Bargnani is a horrible, historically bad rebounder. By putting him on the floor against other bigs you're immediately at a disadvantage because he's so awful on the glass. Yes, you might make up for it by surrounding him with rebounders, but no, that doesn't make it a non-issue.

Why? Because by putting even an average rebounder in his place, you become a much better rebounding team. Your average rebounding differential becomes a strong one. It has a big effect on team success.

Oh, and the whole "he boxes out, but lets others grab the board!" is such a ridiculous argument. If you box out your man for 36 minutes you'll have more boards than Bargnani gets in a game falling right into your hands.

I acknowledged that he's an awful rebounder. What I'm arguing is that he does provide help in other areas, like his presence offensively.

He put up a PER of 22+ in 13 games before injury. The Raptors were 6-7 during that stretch. Then he gets injured, and they go 0-7 in the next 7 games without him. Can you please explain that?

The point is Bargnani has talent. Bargnani and Bayless are the only talented players on the current Raptors team, and we should be looking to add to the talent, not subtract. As I said, Bargnani's lack of effort at times is a HUGE flaw. I've also acknowledged that. I'm hoping he's more motivated next season when we might be playing more meaningful games.

[Relentless88]

i went with bargs because of the contract and age but thats just my opinion. i think they have similar games good offence average defence. too much focus on the rebounding imo. as someone else stated its a team effort. i dont care if my PF averages 1 rebound a game aslong as my team grabs o good % of the defensive boards.

David Lee is paid about $2 million per year more than Bargnani and the stats below show why:

2011-2012 Statistical Comparison Andrea Bargnani vs David Lee

Bargnani 19.4 pts 43% FGM, 5.5 rebs, 2.0 assts, 0.5 blks, PER 17.01 2011-12 salary $9,250,000
Lee 19.7 pts 51% FGM, 9.6 rebs, 2.7 assts, 0.4 blocks, PER 19.93 2011-12 salary $11,610,000

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

Ellis and Curry are awesome scorers, Wright/Maggette are great SFs, and Biedrins doesn't grow on a tree. Yet they haven't been to the playoffs in 3 or 4 years now?

[vege]

Bargani have a 8.9 rebound rate, Jason Maxiell have a 13.8 and Johan Petro have a 14 rebound rate just to list 2 well below average big man who rebound poorly but sill get close to double Bargnani's rebound rate.

Bargnani rebound rate would be awful for a Small Forward let alone for a PF/C.

[Pooh_Jeter]

If Bargnani was just a inefficient spot up shooter who couldn't rebound or play defense he wouldn't have gotten a big contract and he wouldn't be coveted by certain NBA people.

Is he a superstar or #1 option on a championship team? Nope, but people are seriously sleeping on his offensive game.

You can use PER, field goal percentage or whatever to compare his game to Anderson, Lee or Boozer, but if you actually watch him play, Andrea's offensive game is far more diverse than those 3.

Andrea has a great face up game and quickness all in a legit 7 foot frame. His ability and creativeness when finishing around the basket is impressive as well. Since his rookie season he has slowly developed a pretty solid mid range and post game if you try and defend him with a smaller player. His ability to be a facilitator has also improved and he will make a pass or two a game that will surprise you.

The issue beyond the rebounding and help defense is that sometimes Bargnani will settle for taking long jumpshots and instead of working from inside out, will do the opposite. But, when he was playing at an all-star level prior to his injury he was doing all the things I listed offensively and playing solid defense. That is why he was a #1 pick and that is why he will always be coveted in this league.

You can call his rebounding and defense putrid (for the most part it is), but his offensive repertoire in that frame is extremely rare. There are only a handful of players in the league who can match him.

[don nelson]

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

The Warriors are tanking hard trying to keep their top 7 protected 2012 pick from going to Utah.

[coldfish]

Who said we're shopping Bargnani? The OP? Like I said, it doesn't make sense to move him since he's pretty important to our team. And a defense and rebounding center is pretty much what every good team has, and most good teams also have a penetrating guard. So I guess that makes him a specialist?

Most good teams have a PF better than Bargnani too. Like I said, go around the league and look for teams who would want Bargnani as a long term starter. The answer would be very, very few.

Boozer is on the decline and a much worse defender. In fact, Boozer is one of the worst defensive PFs in the league.

Boozer is awful, but he is just about as awful as bargnani on defense. Boozer (probably thanks to Thibodeau) now actually helps from time to time. Again though, better offensive player and MASSIVELY better rebounder. They really aren't close as far as on court impact.

[tdotrep2]

Not a better offensive player, better rebounder and debatable defensively, andrea has a huge reach advantage and goes contest his man.

[Relentless88]

Who said we're shopping Bargnani? The OP? Like I said, it doesn't make sense to move him since he's pretty important to our team. And a defense and rebounding center is pretty much what every good team has, and most good teams also have a penetrating guard. So I guess that makes him a specialist?

Most good teams have a PF better than Bargnani too. Like I said, go around the league and look for teams who would want Bargnani as a long term starter. The answer would be very, very few.

Boozer is on the decline and a much worse defender. In fact, Boozer is one of the worst defensive PFs in the league.

Boozer is awful, but he is just about as awful as bargnani on defense. Boozer (probably thanks to Thibodeau) now actually helps from time to time. Again though, better offensive player and MASSIVELY better rebounder. They really aren't close as far as on court impact.

Like I mentioned in another thread, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think Boozer is an awful defender, very limited offensively, and a good rebounder approaching his declining years on an awful contract while Bargnani is a better defender, poor help defender, awful rebounder and is a dynamic presence offensively, is much younger and on a decent contract (10 mil/yr vs 16 mil/yr).

[Relentless88]

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

The Warriors are tanking hard trying to keep their top 7 protected 2012 pick from going to Utah.

So they've been tanking for 4 years now?

[JaVier Mastro]

i went with bargs because of the contract and age but thats just my opinion. i think they have similar games good offence average defence. too much focus on the rebounding imo. as someone else stated its a team effort. i dont care if my PF averages 1 rebound a game aslong as my team grabs o good % of the defensive boards.

David Lee is paid about $2 million per year more than Bargnani and the stats below show why:

2011-2012 Statistical Comparison Andrea Bargnani vs David Lee

Bargnani 19.4 pts 43% FGM, 5.5 rebs, 2.0 assts, 0.5 blks, PER 17.01 2011-12 salary $9,250,000
Lee 19.7 pts 51% FGM, 9.6 rebs, 2.7 assts, 0.4 blocks, PER 19.93 2011-12 salary $11,610,000

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

Ellis and Curry are awesome scorers, Wright/Maggette are great SFs, and Biedrins doesn't grow on a tree. Yet they haven't been to the playoffs in 3 or 4 years now?

The Warriors play out west a more stacked conference and the Raptors play in a TOP HEAVY eastern conference

[eitanr]

I'm not a huge Bargnani fan honestly. With his rebounding rate he needs to be an SF but he's too slow. All I know is 1) I don't want my pf shooting 43 percent and 2) I want him to get more than 5 rebounds (in fact, double that) so unless I had a top 3 rebounder in the league at center I'd be very relucant to pay him what he's making.

Just found my new best friend.

I 100% agree with this. You need your 4/5 to defend the interior and rebound, but for poops and giggles let's see who the more efficient player really is Ryno or Bargs?

(Again, Ryno beats Bargs in thoe two aforementioned necessary stats...oh and just because you have Dwight, doesn't mean you can really get by with a 4 who can't defend or rebound...right Big Baby?).

Let's use a more telling shooting statistic, TS% and how about other offensive stats which are important like Turnover rate, assist rate.

(TS%, AR, TOR)
Ryno: 59.7, 6.3, 6.2
Bargs: 53.5, 9.9, 11.7

Now I know everyone will come back and talk about how because of Howard Ryno's numbers are that much better and since Bargs' needs to be Toronto's number one scorer that is why his numbers are bad.

Here's the thing. I feel Bargs is inefficient as a number one scorer and is far better suited to play alongside a big like Howard. Having said that, I feel Ryno's numbers were great, even next to Howard...and if I feel both are essentially nice 2nd or 3rd guys next to a big, I'm taking the proven efficient one....who of course is the better rebounder and defender!

[eitanr]

To be honest if I'm Toronto I play off Otis Smith and the view that Bargs is that much better than Ryno. My goal would be to deal Bargs and someone, not named DeRozan, Val or my 1st round pick FOR Ryno S&T and Redick.

[gswhoops]

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

Ellis and Curry are awesome scorers, Wright/Maggette are great SFs, and Biedrins doesn't grow on a tree. Yet they haven't been to the playoffs in 3 or 4 years now?

Ellis and Curry are both talented but were a poor fit together because they're both on-ball players, Dorell is a decent role player but nothing more, Lee is good, Biedrins sucks a fat one and has for years.

[eitanr]

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

Ellis and Curry are awesome scorers, Wright/Maggette are great SFs, and Biedrins doesn't grow on a tree. Yet they haven't been to the playoffs in 3 or 4 years now?

Ellis and Curry are both talented but were a poor fit together because they're both on-ball players, Dorell is a decent role player but nothing more, Lee is good, Biedrins sucks a fat one and has for years.

I'd agree here. The fits were terrible. Ellis is similar to Iverson in that he's best suited to play on a defensive team which needs his offense desperately. That's not the case on GSW or even the current Bucks for that matter (well maybe). I agree on Beans...hes garbage, but Wright is a very good spacing wing. I think you'll see major improvements next year from GSW, especially if they land a nice draft pick, next year.

[eitanr]

How about Ryan Anderson (S&T), JJ Redick, Chris Duhon FOR Andrea Bargnani, Linas Kleiza, Ed Davis?

[Relentless88]

The Warriors play out west a more stacked conference and the Raptors play in a TOP HEAVY eastern conference

The West is more stacked, but that's not why the Warriors did not/will not make the playoffs. They don't/didn't have a roster capable of making the playoffs. The pre-Bogut trade roster would not make the playoffs in the East, IMO. I don't think they would leapfrog the Knicks and Celtics for one of the final playoff spots.

If Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Dorrell Wright, Andris Biedrins and David Lee are such great players, which you've stated over and over again with your stats, then why do the Warriors have only 3 more wins than the Raptors? Can you explain that?

Ellis and Curry are awesome scorers, Wright/Maggette are great SFs, and Biedrins doesn't grow on a tree. Yet they haven't been to the playoffs in 3 or 4 years now?

Ellis and Curry are both talented but were a poor fit together because they're both on-ball players, Dorell is a decent role player but nothing more, Lee is good, Biedrins sucks a fat one and has for years.

Yeah, I know that. You should really be telling don nelson that.

[azuresou1]

Bargnani is ****ing GARBAGE and I wouldn't start him on any team in the league other than Orlando.

[gswhoops]

I'd agree here. The fits were terrible. Ellis is similar to Iverson in that he's best suited to play on a defensive team which needs his offense desperately. That's not the case on GSW or even the current Bucks for that matter (well maybe). I agree on Beans...hes garbage, but Wright is a very good spacing wing. I think you'll see major improvements next year from GSW, especially if they land a nice draft pick, next year.

I agree. I think the Bogut deal was a major steal for us if Bogut can stay healthy. If we can manage to tank hard enough to keep our pick and roll with Curry/Klay/Lee/Bogut/top-7 pick I think we could have a shot at the playoffs next year.

Yeah, I know that. You should really be telling don nelson that.

I would if I thought there was any hope he would listen.

[eitanr]

I'd agree here. The fits were terrible. Ellis is similar to Iverson in that he's best suited to play on a defensive team which needs his offense desperately. That's not the case on GSW or even the current Bucks for that matter (well maybe). I agree on Beans...hes garbage, but Wright is a very good spacing wing. I think you'll see major improvements next year from GSW, especially if they land a nice draft pick, next year.

I agree. I think the Bogut deal was a major steal for us if Bogut can stay healthy. If we can manage to tank hard enough to keep our pick and roll with Curry/Klay/Lee/Bogut/top-7 pick I think we could have a shot at the playoffs next year.

Yeah, I know that. You should really be telling don nelson that.

I would if I thought there was any hope he would listen.

BTW does GSW package their 7th pick and Beans for an impact vet?...Maybe for someone like Iggy?

[gswhoops]

I'd agree here. The fits were terrible. Ellis is similar to Iverson in that he's best suited to play on a defensive team which needs his offense desperately. That's not the case on GSW or even the current Bucks for that matter (well maybe). I agree on Beans...hes garbage, but Wright is a very good spacing wing. I think you'll see major improvements next year from GSW, especially if they land a nice draft pick, next year.

I agree. I think the Bogut deal was a major steal for us if Bogut can stay healthy. If we can manage to tank hard enough to keep our pick and roll with Curry/Klay/Lee/Bogut/top-7 pick I think we could have a shot at the playoffs next year.

Yeah, I know that. You should really be telling don nelson that.

I would if I thought there was any hope he would listen.

BTW does GSW package their 7th pick and Beans for an impact vet?...Maybe for someone like Iggy?

I don't know but I would guess not.