ImageImageImage

Gentry

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Gentry 

Post#21 » by RunDogGun » Mon Apr 2, 2012 10:45 am

mybloodisorange wrote:I just want to say that I think that you and Los Soles place way too much weight purely on stats. Havent you ever heard the term "what he does doesnt show up in the box score"? Lots of things dont show up in statistical data. Like chemistry of the 5 on the floor at any givin time. Or setting good solid picks. Or rotating consistantly on defense. Or taking charges. Or fatigue. Or how someone is feeling on any givin day.

There is much more to coaching than just looking at numbers and I agree whole heartedly with sunskerr.

What you do with disecting every move you dont like with Gentry I could do with any coach in the league quite frankly.


Then do it! Just don't say you can do it, prove it to me, show me all the things that I have pointed out with any/every coach in the league. And I have no problem going the route of talking about what doesn't show up in the box scores, because it has been one of my main arguments for why I want Chilldress to play more!!!!!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: But I still don't see how you can argue against data that shows that with Price, we score more, and give up less when he is on the floor over Telfail.

Look if you guys don't see the issues I have brought up, then there really isn't anything more I can tell you. You just clearly don't see them. :(
User avatar
GrantHill
Veteran
Posts: 2,680
And1: 74
Joined: Apr 17, 2011
Location: France
   

Re: Gentry 

Post#22 » by GrantHill » Mon Apr 2, 2012 11:04 am

RunDogGun wrote:But I still don't see how you can argue against data that shows that with Price, we score more, and give up less when he is on the floor over Telfail.


Why do you think our second unit would be better with Price at point guard? Only because some stats show it? These stats are awful. Price played a lot of these minutes with our starters and in garbage time! I'm not surprised that his stats are better then Telfair's. Price was our backup point guard earlier in the season and he sucked! Our second unit played awful and Price couldn't run an offense. At least Telfair showed some promise and even if his FG% is bad, it's because he has to force up a lot of shots because of our bad chemistry.

I totally agree with guys like Los Soles when he says that Grant Hill should play more with our bench our that we should find Lou 2.0. But I don't like it when you're saying that Gentry is a bad coach because he choosed the wrong backup point guard and try to explain it through stats.

We had this discussion before and we won't come to an agreement but that's fine. I'm glad I'm not the only one on this board who thinks that Gentry is our least problem. But hey: next season we won't have to discuss these topics because Nash and Hill will be gone and our main problem will be to find usefull players.
Hill on Nash going to the Lakers: “That’s like transferring from Duke and going to Carolina.”
User avatar
mybloodisorange
Rookie
Posts: 1,157
And1: 66
Joined: Jul 17, 2010
Location: Cloud 9

Re: Gentry 

Post#23 » by mybloodisorange » Mon Apr 2, 2012 11:07 am

OK for your benefit I will address non stats regarding Childress and Price.

Childress is a crappy outside shooter despite nailing the 3 at the end of the 3rd quarter; hes basically a poor mans Marion with less athleticsism. The Suns offense is based on having shooter spread the floor so he doesnt fit well into that framework.

I dont know whats up with Price since he doesnt see substantial minutes. In fact I like him as well...but im not going to pretend I know more than the coaching staff so I assume there is a reason. Maybe he is turnover prone. Maybe he gambles too much on defense. I have no idea but just because I dont know the answer doesnt mean that there isnt one.

Your stat drivin approach means anyone could coach. Just let the numbers make all the decisions. I personally think that there is much more to the game than stats and you disagree. We have to agree to disagree.
Everybody dies but not everybody truly lives.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Gentry 

Post#24 » by RunDogGun » Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:43 pm

Just because I am using stats to back up my points, doesn't mean they are driven by stats. For why the heck do you play a player? Do you play players because they get your team a lot of points? Rebounds? Blocks? Steals? Etc. aren't those all stats? :lol:

The point about having three point shooters is valid, but Hill isn't a three point shooter, and although Redd has in the past been a decent one, he sure isn't this season. So that leads to another point about Chilldress. If Redd can't make those shots, and he is terrible on defense, why does he continue to get minutes over Chilldress? Chilldress doesn't suck on defense, he creates turnovers in tips and deflections. He doesn't over shoot, and usually takes the best shot available.

But why do we need three point shooters? So Nash can have room to work, and let Gortat have that room as well. I understand that. However, if we are talking about the second unit, are we really talking about Nash and Gortat? Nope. That is why I have been saying we need to adjust our system for the players we have. We can't continue to just have all our guys on the wings. However, I have already suggested an answer to that four out one in play where Chilldress is the one in. I suggested a Nash, Brown/Dudley, Chilldress, Morris, Frye line up for six minutes a half.

As for GH saying Price sucked early this year, he had an 18/8 game when he started for Nash, and did a decent job of working with Gortat (which you have the results of those stats in your sig) :lol: Then he follows that game with only 13 minutes instead of 30 like the night before against NJ, with 7 assists. So again, where/what are you basing this inability to run the offense? Look at his splits and game logs, he later gets the start at the two, where besides defense, we aren't using his point guard skills. Nash dominated the ball (like he should), but the minutes Price got were ridiculous. The first start at the two he gets big minutes, and the next night about 13. It is like this almost the whole season. Big minutes, where he proves that he helps the team, and then limited minutes to no minutes.

Ha, so now you agree with Los Soles that Hill should play more with the second, yet I have been saying this for three years, and when I mentioned it this year, you said it was terrible, because Hill sucks off the bench. I even said that if Hill does start, he gets an early rest, so he can run the second unit. So because months later, when Los comments on this, you now think it is a good idea? :lol: Sounds like you are just hating on me. :wink:

Again, I don't care whether many people don't see these issues I bring up. They exist, and many can be backed with stats. And so far can only be disputed by opinions. :(
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Gentry 

Post#25 » by RunDogGun » Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:56 pm

As for the comments about Lou, I have always liked Lou. I liked him when I first saw him play against us in the summer league for Philly his first season there. And when we got him, I was extremely happy. But we let him walk.

But we have a similar player in Chilldress, so if we know Lou can work in our system even though he is an even worse shooter than Chilldress, and doesn't spread the floor at all, why can't Chilldress? Chilldress is a very vet savvy player, who can be quite useful if used properly.
User avatar
GrantHill
Veteran
Posts: 2,680
And1: 74
Joined: Apr 17, 2011
Location: France
   

Re: Gentry 

Post#26 » by GrantHill » Mon Apr 2, 2012 5:05 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
As for GH saying Price sucked early this year, he had an 18/8 game when he started for Nash, and did a decent job of working with Gortat (which you have the results of those stats in your sig) :lol: Then he follows that game with only 13 minutes instead of 30 like the night before against NJ, with 7 assists. So again, where/what are you basing this inability to run the offense?


You're mentioning the only two games where Price played good as our point guard. He was solid against Denver, too, but that's about it. But you know what? Telfair had good games as well (like against Dallas or Clippers). It's not like he's playing awful recently.


RunDogGun wrote:Ha, so now you agree with Los Soles that Hill should play more with the second, yet I have been saying this for three years, and when I mentioned it this year, you said it was terrible, because Hill sucks off the bench. I even said that if Hill does start, he gets an early rest, so he can run the second unit. So because months later, when Los comments on this, you now think it is a good idea? :lol: Sounds like you are just hating on me. :wink:


I never said that Grant should come off the bench. And yes he was terrible coming off the bench. I've said that Hill should spend time with our second unit like you said: give him an early rest and start him in the second quarter. And don't forget: I agreed with you on this idea.

I don't hate you. I mostly have the same opinion as you have but in this case we simply can't agree. :wink:
Hill on Nash going to the Lakers: “That’s like transferring from Duke and going to Carolina.”
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Gentry 

Post#27 » by RunDogGun » Mon Apr 2, 2012 5:32 pm

Price had a good December as well in the limited minutes he got. His minutes are very up and down the whole season, and I use the two games that were consecutive, to show that it is tough to see where you base his so-called suckiness.

As for Hill coming off the bench and his so-called suckiness, I already addressed it. The only bulk of games more than two, where Hill came off the bench was a sample of twelve games. All of those were under Porter, so maybe it is time to revisit it. In fact, if you look at those stats, and the minutes Hill got, one could easily see why he didn't play his best. Heck, a five bench player lineup really hasn't worked since 2010 season, yet Gentry still tries it every game.

But players played, and player rotation is only one to two points in my Gentry dislike rant. Do you think he let's teams go on huge runs without timeouts? And when he does call that timeout, does he frequently not make any changes to the line up? How about his , whoever starts the game, starts the third, regardless of whether they suck or not, or if a bench player is having a great game? I still want to hear what he does well, for the things he does poorly has been going on for two to three years. If I saw significant change in those mistakes, I would think that he was ok, because he would be at least learning from his mistakes, and growing as a coach. But he hasn't, and the issues can be seen and pointed out almost every game this year.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Gentry 

Post#28 » by RunDogGun » Mon Apr 2, 2012 5:36 pm

Oh, and Los's Hill idea was to never play him and Nash together, so that would mean either Nash or Hill coming off the bench. Los later revised this to limiting Nash and Hill's minutes together.

So my point was, you were agreeing with "my" idea, yet gave Los the credit. :D :wink:
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,376
And1: 22,196
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Gentry 

Post#29 » by Revived » Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:06 pm

RunDogRun- I have a very simple question for you, when Price was the primary backup PG early in the season, do you think we had a reliable bench?

(Note I'm not asking about how good he was individually, but I'm asking about the bench as a whole)
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Gentry 

Post#30 » by RunDogGun » Mon Apr 2, 2012 8:31 pm

We didn't have a reliable starting unit at the beginning of the season. Both Dudley and Frye were shooting terribly and Hill was not himself. But when Price was called on, he responded positively, and still continues to do so.

So I am not sure how to answer your question. We didn't have a reliable team as a whole. When the bench did come in, we had guys like Brown and Telfail, being black holes on offense, and chucking whenever possible. I am not sure how that could be seen as reliable. Since then, Brown seemed to learn a bit from his benching and DNPs to a point. Although he did complain about it in the media. I still haven't seen/heard either Chilldress or Price complain to the media about their lack of playing time.

From every game that I have seen Price play, he hustles and makes positive things happen for the team. I can't say the same for Telfail. I think it seemed fairly clear that Price earned the second string spot from his hard work at the beginning of the season. Now I don't know what may have happened in practices, but for me, Telfail has yet to prove he deserves the spot over Price, and the stats back that.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,376
And1: 22,196
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Gentry 

Post#31 » by Revived » Mon Apr 2, 2012 9:27 pm

I don't like Telfair much either but I don't think Price would make a significant improvement over Telfair. And honestly, I don't care about +/- stats, I think there's a lot more to the game of basketball than that.

Best thing for us is to just sign Aaron Brooks and play him as backup for remainder of the year. He's way better than Telfair and Price.

Go with a bench lineup of...

Brooks
Price
Childress
Morris
Lopez

Price at 2 guard will make up for the defensive inefficiency that Brooks brings.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,376
And1: 22,196
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Gentry 

Post#32 » by Revived » Sat Apr 7, 2012 8:50 am

Fire Gentry. Addition by subtraction.

Return to Phoenix Suns