A pessimistic view - why this team isNOT a championship team

[RhapidKid]

Funny how Bosh went from a franchise player to a bosh after joining the heat.

[DefenseWins]

I don't think Riley would have gotten Bosh if he was more finesse than he was in Toronto. When he had his dreads, that's the type of player we wanted. Atleast a guy who could grab 10 boards, and was aggressive.

I can see why the Bulls were brought up, a lot of people say LeBron and Wade are the best duo since Pippen and Jordan, who was their core.

We could have won the Finals, if we replaced Jordan with either LeBron or Wade I'd say But I just wish we didn't have to depend on them so much and play hero ball. It's the only way we got to the Finals but it didn't last very long (the heroics).

I thought your post was good, it's not like you were lying, all of the stuff is true. Yeah it's true it's crazy to compare to the 2nd 3 peat, but Rodman is a good example when it comes to an offensive liability, but a beast defensively and a rebounding machine. If Joel was even half of a player Rodman was like, I would have no problem. He fits in this team's defensive system, so what? We just got blown out by Boston and Rondo blew past him We need to upgrade him. There are times where I appreciate him on this team, and then the next you see how much of a liability he is. I think we could get a good player in exchange for Joel later on...

But anyway, what disappoints me out of everything, besides the lacking of fundamentals, too much heroics, Spo, Joel.... is our bench. It's very inconsistent, and we don't have that player people are afraid of that comes off the bench. Mike Miller was suppose to be that guy, and he has yet to prove it. He had like 2 games in 2 seasons where he was great. Battier I think will be valuable come playoff time, but we need another 3 point shooter (Battier still misses WIDE OPEN 3's...).

Chalmers is playing the Fisher role IMO. Just there for "defense", knock down timely 3's, feed Wade/LBJ. But he is a bonehead. :| Cole is following suite too on being a bonehead lol.

I will not be in panic mode until they actually lose or lose out of getting to the Finals. We all know what it feels like to lose the Finals, so it hurts less. But if this team doesn't make it this year, I actually expect Bosh and Miller to hit the high rode for valuable pieces.

[CablexDeadpool]

Been saying this since the team was put together.


The roster is extremely lacking and Bosh's impact on the game is small.

This team relies on talent from Lebron and Wade and they aren't gonna get any better.

If they don't win it, this year, which I don't think they will, blow it up.

[Akshan]

THIS TEAM is just flawed as a unit because of how our roster is set up . One night the bench will score 30 the next not even 10 we need some consistent play from players not named LeBron James or Dwyane Wade.

Chris Bosh told us he worked on his jumpshot improved his rebounding so why don't we see it on the court why is his mentality not the same when we got Dwyane and LeBron opposed to just Dwyane or LeBron playing with him.

Why can Shane Battier go 6-6 from behind the line one game and than 0-10 or 1-10 the next 5 games. UNLESS we get some consistent play from players not named Dwyane or LeBron we are always gonna rely on talent to win. The Bulls team u talked about had Kukoc as their consistent player , had Dennis Rodman as their defender and rebounder.

UNTIL we find consistency as a whole team we will always get by just by our talent. I had thought Shane Battier might be that missing piece but no matter how many wing players or point guards we sign until we get a true Center we are always going to be missing that key piece.

Mavericks beat us due to Tyson Chandler having his way with Joel Anthony . We need a center to go up against Noah and Garnett and Perkins and I'm not saying we won't beat the Bulls or Celtics in a 7 game series I'm just saying we could rest Dwyane and LeBron if we had an actually center who could get us 6 to 7 points and close to 10 rebounds.

[iboxlefty]

Still want Bosh here, less money but let him play alongside a true center

[GreenHat]

This team clearly is a championship team.

We're probably even still the favorite and at worst they're still in the top 5.

We're more likely to not win it all then to win it (we're not even money favorites) but we still have a good shot because of the talent we have.

[EscapoTHB]

Can't believe we still have people wanting Bosh out. For who? There is no one we can get who would be an upgrade on Bosh that we have the assets to aquire. The guys who are better than Bosh are like Kevin Love and Dirk. Pretty sure it would take more than just Bosh and Mike Miller to get any of them right now.

[Joao Saraiva]

Can't believe we still have people wanting Bosh out. For who? There is no one we can get who would be an upgrade on Bosh that we have the assets to aquire. The guys who are better than Bosh are like Kevin Love and Dirk. Pretty sure it would take more than just Bosh and Mike Miller to get any of them right now.

I don't really think people want Bosh out. Just want him to play harder. He doesn't need to be scoring so much most of the time, so instead of foccusing on that he should really work on rebounding issues.

Btw LeBron seems really tired. He's not driving a lot right now and his FTA are really down lately. I hope we can go by this.

[dflash3]

The Bulls won without a dominant offensive big like Shaq due to the greatness of Jordan and Pippen, but even they had tough defensive bigs who were capable of rebounding the ball or protecting the paint with players like Horace Grant and then Rodman over the years.

The Heat adding a legit defensive big who can actually anchor the paint would make everything for the Heat easier. It is a shame the Heat couldn't get Dalembert during the off season, and despite not being fond of the notion at the time, even Kwame would have been a welcomed addition due to how thin the Heat are in the front court. And despite all the criticisms Bosh has received, the Heat seem to have a much harder time playing without him than without Lebron or Wade.

[HIF]

As much as i want to see this team do well and win it all - the rational part of me as a long time basketbalfan know they probably won't. this team has some very talented pieces, but it was built wrong in many different ways. this roster is very flawed.

our core as a team is the Wade\Bron duo. the closest thing in the history of the NBA to them were MJ and Pippen in those geart Bulls teams, so lets see what made those bulls team so strong (and what the heat are missing) :

1) the Bulls understood that Mj and Pip are the core of their team, and everyone else needs to fit around them.

So they got Dennis Rodman, which was one of the best defenders in the league at the time, and the best rebounder in the league.

We got Bosh, who is a good scorer (but we dont really need another first/seconed option with an outside game type scorer) yet he's a very average defender, below average shot blocker, bad rebounder, and very soft overall. he's just that kind of a finess player, we need to accpet it.

2) they had Steve Kerr - a steady, consistent, pure shooter and ball handler. or Ron Haeprer - a big vetren that played good D.

We got Mario - a semi-crazy streaky shooter with tendencies to bone-headed plays. or Cole - an out of control Rookie that has trouble adjusting to the NBA ( might be Coach related).

3) They had a long list of true 7 footers who would clog the paint, block shots, rebound and provide physicality and toughness.

We have the undersized Joel (another bad rebounder, and a very bad offensive player), a few bigs on the the bench that never get on the court, and Ronny Turiaf whice was a nice pickup but is far from enough to solve the C issue.

4. Bulls also had another create/scorer from the bench in Toni Kukoc.

We got the glass-man who is Mike Miller. never healthy, and doesn't have the confidences even when he's on the court. we also got Battier - an over the hill smart team player.

5. They had Phil Jackson , who was able to maximize their talent and create something bigger, a team better then the sum of it's parts. they always played hard D and knew what they were going for on O.

We have Spo, a nice guy with no experience who is stuglling to create a team even equal to the sum of it's parts. sadly, after almost 2 all seasons our half court offense is still just totally random. they still have no idea how to work for each other, or how many shots each one should expect in a given night, or what kind of shots should they even take (taking/not taking 3's..Bosh thinks he's a jump shooter, ect).
Our defense scheme is just weird and is hurting us as much as it's helping us (killed us Vs the Mavs in Finalls and in many other games since).

We simply win on talent alone, and i always think of that old Michael Jordan saying : ""Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."

Can you honestly say this team plays smart? or hard? or as a tight united team? i cant.

Look at all NBA champions teams in history. never, NEVER, will u find a team that won with a soft/small front court rotation like Bosh/UD/Joel/Turiaf. it just never happened in 50+ years.

I always thought Riely is a stud, but he really faild in bringing in the right pieces around the Bron/Wade core. we dont have the right coach, that in itself is big. and we dont have the right type of PF to compliment Wade's and Bron's style, which is huge cause CB is taking the rest of our salary cap yet his skillset is underutilized and not really needed, and he's lacking in the things we do need.
After Riely got the big 3 - he throw all our resources on Mike Miller and Haslem. i love UD, but those are two BENCH guys (one of whice is never healthy), and he did that while our PG and C spots are being filled with bench players talent. (that's what Rio and joel really are).

I just dont believe in this roster getting a championship, it's just too flawed, too many weaknesses. i do believe we can make some moves in the summer, and hopefully become more balanced and much better as a team.

With all that said, if Wade AND Bron go completely berserk during the last 3 playoffs Series, they could pull it off. but it won't be because we're a better team, it's because those 2 are that special.
and it would take a special miracle for us to win this year.

Anyone feeling optimistic and care to explain why?

The game is so different to the days of the MJ bulls team. I think you've failed to realise that.

[lecola]

utah jazz bigs: kanter-favors-jefferson-milsap (this is the best big roster in whole nba i think)
lakers bigs: bynum-gasol-murphy- mcroberts (gasol and bynum are just beasts)
thunder bigs: ibaka- perkins- collison-mohammed (ibaka is the best shot blocker in the nba)
bulls bigs: noah-boozer-gibson-asik
spurs bigs: duncan-blair-splitter
orlando bigs: howard-anderson-big baby-clark
grizllies bigs: gasol-speights-randolph
clippers bigs: griffin-jordan-k.mart
*
*

and our bigs: bosh-haslem-joel-pittman-turiaf

with this big roster, we are doing extremely good i think. the teams that i mentioned and also some other teams that i did not mention have really better bigs than we have and i think we are not even comparable to them in terms of our bigs. i would like to have ibaka in this team btw then nobody could stop us

[GreenHat]

As much as i want to see this team do well and win it all - the rational part of me as a long time basketbalfan know they probably won't. this team has some very talented pieces, but it was built wrong in many different ways. this roster is very flawed.

our core as a team is the Wade\Bron duo. the closest thing in the history of the NBA to them were MJ and Pippen in those geart Bulls teams, so lets see what made those bulls team so strong (and what the heat are missing) :

1) the Bulls understood that Mj and Pip are the core of their team, and everyone else needs to fit around them.

So they got Dennis Rodman, which was one of the best defenders in the league at the time, and the best rebounder in the league.

We got Bosh, who is a good scorer (but we dont really need another first/seconed option with an outside game type scorer) yet he's a very average defender, below average shot blocker, bad rebounder, and very soft overall. he's just that kind of a finess player, we need to accpet it.

2) they had Steve Kerr - a steady, consistent, pure shooter and ball handler. or Ron Haeprer - a big vetren that played good D.

We got Mario - a semi-crazy streaky shooter with tendencies to bone-headed plays. or Cole - an out of control Rookie that has trouble adjusting to the NBA ( might be Coach related).

3) They had a long list of true 7 footers who would clog the paint, block shots, rebound and provide physicality and toughness.

We have the undersized Joel (another bad rebounder, and a very bad offensive player), a few bigs on the the bench that never get on the court, and Ronny Turiaf whice was a nice pickup but is far from enough to solve the C issue.

4. Bulls also had another create/scorer from the bench in Toni Kukoc.

We got the glass-man who is Mike Miller. never healthy, and doesn't have the confidences even when he's on the court. we also got Battier - an over the hill smart team player.

5. They had Phil Jackson , who was able to maximize their talent and create something bigger, a team better then the sum of it's parts. they always played hard D and knew what they were going for on O.

We have Spo, a nice guy with no experience who is stuglling to create a team even equal to the sum of it's parts. sadly, after almost 2 all seasons our half court offense is still just totally random. they still have no idea how to work for each other, or how many shots each one should expect in a given night, or what kind of shots should they even take (taking/not taking 3's..Bosh thinks he's a jump shooter, ect).
Our defense scheme is just weird and is hurting us as much as it's helping us (killed us Vs the Mavs in Finalls and in many other games since).

We simply win on talent alone, and i always think of that old Michael Jordan saying : ""Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."

Can you honestly say this team plays smart? or hard? or as a tight united team? i cant.

Look at all NBA champions teams in history. never, NEVER, will u find a team that won with a soft/small front court rotation like Bosh/UD/Joel/Turiaf. it just never happened in 50+ years.

I always thought Riely is a stud, but he really faild in bringing in the right pieces around the Bron/Wade core. we dont have the right coach, that in itself is big. and we dont have the right type of PF to compliment Wade's and Bron's style, which is huge cause CB is taking the rest of our salary cap yet his skillset is underutilized and not really needed, and he's lacking in the things we do need.
After Riely got the big 3 - he throw all our resources on Mike Miller and Haslem. i love UD, but those are two BENCH guys (one of whice is never healthy), and he did that while our PG and C spots are being filled with bench players talent. (that's what Rio and joel really are).

I just dont believe in this roster getting a championship, it's just too flawed, too many weaknesses. i do believe we can make some moves in the summer, and hopefully become more balanced and much better as a team.

With all that said, if Wade AND Bron go completely berserk during the last 3 playoffs Series, they could pull it off. but it won't be because we're a better team, it's because those 2 are that special.
and it would take a special miracle for us to win this year.

Anyone feeling optimistic and care to explain why?

The game is so different to the days of the MJ bulls team. I think you've failed to realise that.

Adding to HIF's point the 3pt line was shorter that year which helped those Bulls tremendously. Jordan and Pippen were both bad 3pt shooters but could hit the shorter shot. Our team would be perfect for the shorter shot since we already take those long 2s anyway. Its within all of Lebron/Wade/Bosh range

[RexBoyWonder]

Can't believe we still have people wanting Bosh out. For who? There is no one we can get who would be an upgrade on Bosh that we have the assets to aquire. The guys who are better than Bosh are like Kevin Love and Dirk. Pretty sure it would take more than just Bosh and Mike Miller to get any of them right now.

U missed the point - it's not about getting a better player then Bosh ( whice i like as a player and person BTW) - it's about getting pieces that fit better.

Just an example, a trade i brought up before :

Bosh + M.Miller to the Nuggets
for
JaVale McGee + Kenneth Faried

You could argue that that Bosh is the best player in the trade and i would agree, but in our system and considering we're building around the Bron/Wade core - those 2 will fit much better and be more useful to our team. both are great rebounders and shot blockers, faster and more athletic, and could be turned into defensive beasts with the right guidance. they cant score like Bosh or hit the outside jumper as well as him, but we have Wade and Bron for that. what we need is a strong inside presence on both side of the floor. i have no doubt that this kind of a trade will make us a stronger team overall.

[cb1]

utah jazz bigs: kanter-favors-jefferson-milsap (this is the best big roster in whole nba i think)
lakers bigs: bynum-gasol-murphy- mcroberts (gasol and bynum are just beasts)
thunder bigs: ibaka- perkins- collison-mohammed (ibaka is the best shot blocker in the nba)
bulls bigs: noah-boozer-gibson-asik
spurs bigs: duncan-blair-splitter
orlando bigs: howard-anderson-big baby-clark
grizllies bigs: gasol-speights-randolph
clippers bigs: griffin-jordan-k.mart
*
*

and our bigs: bosh-haslem-joel-pittman-turiaf

with this big roster, we are doing extremely good i think. the teams that i mentioned and also some other teams that i did not mention have really better bigs than we have and i think we are not even comparable to them in terms of our bigs. i would like to have ibaka in this team btw then nobody could stop us

our bigs rotation doesnt look so bad on paper. If pittman became a legit rebunding and post centre then we will b talking

[HEATVols865]

Bosh for the 1st round Pick (Davis)...that propels us to the ring.

[dolphinatik]

well the Heat made the front of ESPN nba but not for a good reason. One bs article about not hitting the panic button. Thats the problem.

Coaching has been the problem the last few years in Miami. Trying to hold on to the "Heat Culture" is holding the team down. Not running offense or establishing an offensive identity. They start the season with this new philosophy and pace then revert to bad habits ball hogging and refusing to move the ball. Its been the same for years. They bring in free agents then suffocate them with how they want them to fit in their roles of letting Wade and Bron have the ball and staying out of their way. Riley is as stubborn as they come and would only hire a coach that would carry on his coaching philosophies. insert coch Spo. Does not have prior coaching experience at any level but Riley likes him... or likes that fact that he is easily controlled. Spo makes no adjustments has robotic rotations and does not challenge his players. He sounds more like a motivational pep talk giver than coach than gameplans and breaks tams down.

Those graphs while statistically correct do not tell the whole story. They do not show minutes played or who was on the floor when. The Heat tempo is faster with Norris Cole on the floor yet his minutes with starters has drastically declined. Why is Chalmers starting?

Bosh just like Jo before him has been pushed out of the box and put on the perimeter. Jo and Bosh both had to complain publicly before they got more touches down low but bad habits Bosh isnt getting those low touches anymore.

No reason why Lebron has to log so many minutes, why they have as many close games s they do. Why Pittman isnt on the floor more to grow with game experience, why Battier isn't shooting more and why you would start Joel Anthony or play him other than situation occasions.
Bottom line is the Heat are not doing better because they are not trying to change or adjust and that is the basic problem itself. This type of stubborn play, coaching and management will not win a championship even though they are the most talented team.

[Kerosene]

**** this thread, we'll sit back in our seats laughing at it after someone remembers to bump it in July when we've gotten all the championship festivities over with. Super series, I believe we're the BEST team when motivated.

[EscapoTHB]

No reason why Lebron has to log so many minutes, why they have as many close games s they do. Why Pittman isnt on the floor more to grow with game experience, why Battier isn't shooting more and why you would start Joel Anthony or play him other than situation occasions.
Bottom line is the Heat are not doing better because they are not trying to change or adjust and that is the basic problem itself. This type of stubborn play, coaching and management will not win a championship even though they are the most talented team.

There is not a single championship winning coach who shakes and bakes his lineup purely based upon a months worth of data or results. Especially when they are the third best team in the NBA record wise in a crazy schedule.

If Spo did what you suggest here, he would murder team chemistry, our role players would become even less familiar with their roles, and we'd play even worse over the long haul.

When you build a championship team, with no practices, you have to give the units that you believe work the time together to build, you can't just change it for a bad month. Particularly when we played so well before the all-star break.

There's not a single major lineup adjustment that Spo should do. We have what we need. We play the system on both ends that we need to play. It's just about focus. And fans not understanding that not all games are created equal for a veteran squad that's been there before.

[lecola]

utah jazz bigs: kanter-favors-jefferson-milsap (this is the best big roster in whole nba i think)
lakers bigs: bynum-gasol-murphy- mcroberts (gasol and bynum are just beasts)
thunder bigs: ibaka- perkins- collison-mohammed (ibaka is the best shot blocker in the nba)
bulls bigs: noah-boozer-gibson-asik
spurs bigs: duncan-blair-splitter
orlando bigs: howard-anderson-big baby-clark
grizllies bigs: gasol-speights-randolph
clippers bigs: griffin-jordan-k.mart
*
*

and our bigs: bosh-haslem-joel-pittman-turiaf

with this big roster, we are doing extremely good i think. the teams that i mentioned and also some other teams that i did not mention have really better bigs than we have and i think we are not even comparable to them in terms of our bigs. i would like to have ibaka in this team btw then nobody could stop us

our bigs rotation doesnt look so bad on paper. If pittman became a legit rebunding and post centre then we will b talking

bosh is sucking in rebounding and has evolved into a catch and shoot type of player. haslem is undersized. i like turiaf but he is limited. i can't expect him to carry the load all by himself. joel is ... i don't want to talk about him :d some people in the forum appreciate him for his defensive skills, but on the other side there is a man called ibaka, who is one the best defenders among the bigs and have some offensive skills. he can even shoot from the high post if needed. joel can't finish anything and i am really fed up with this. just finish a damn position in a **** game. pittman is a question mark but he is nowhere compared to for example Kanter of Utah in terms of potential and skills. Because of his size, he may be helpful but i want a real center in this team. This center does'nt have to be in superior quality but firstly he should rebound consistently and have some finishing skills in the low post.

[Altered_Beast]

a month ago when we were routinely destroying teams minus the bucks we looked like the globe trotters every night against the generals.

now we are barely a great team after the usual hump-month