The Amazingly Sucky March and April John Wall thread

[JonathanJoseph]

I think Rubio is playing better as a result of having better teammates around him. FACT.

Wall has crap to work with. Aside from Nene, and it looks like Booker and Seraphin. But they can't shoot 3s.

I think you are confusing the word fact. We have the data that shows the variable that is "WITH Rubio" and "WITHOUT Rubio" using the same teammates and the difference is dramatic.

[fishercob]

Three things pop into my head as concerns about Wall: Competitiveness, Intelligence, Attitude.

Wall does not sustain his tenacity. He doesn't try to get physical with his matchup. His idea of competing seems to be to go at them offensively. I would like to see him get more physical, more nasty, learn to hold, grab, push. Cheat. That in addition to his physical gifts would serve him well defensively. On offense, he's got to keep his head in the game to compete better. Too many mental mistakes right now. The most competitive guys don't do that IMO. I will give him a pass on his shooting. He showed touch a month ago. He competed well for a month on offense.

I'm not concerned about Wall's competitive nature. I do think he's mentally fatigued. I do think it's understandable for Wall to struggle to get up for games when the organization is tanking hard. WIttman was asked before last night's game if Nene and Booker would play if the team was in a playoff race. He shrugged and said "can't answer that." The good old non-denial denial -- the tacit admission that these games don't matter so much, and that we're best off losing enough to lock into the second worst record (that's still going great by the way). So what do people expect from Wall -- that's going to be happy about this? He had some affected body language last night. I wouldnt call it "bad." Certainly not "toxic." He's worn down and I don't blame him.

In terms of intelligence it is very simple. Avoid making the same mistakes again and again. nate, that is the concern recently. He IS doing the same things he did last year.

How do you correct mistakes when there are no practices to address them? No offseason plus no practice time this year means slower progress. As a class, the 2010 draft hasn't improved much year to year. It's probably not a coincidence.

You also picked up on attitude, nate. His body language and overall vibe just aren't right IMO. I've seen some Javale. I also think his 360 reminded me a lot of Nick Young. I thought about Flip's line, "Style over substance". Wall's attitude at times seems to be he want to match Jordan Crawford's volume of shots. Wall doesn't seem to stick with feeding the big men, either.

All-in-all, those things affect his match up play, nate. Wall has been getting his butt handed to him and that is not on McGee. Wall's slump has been since the trade. In February, Wall played his best ball and Javale and Nick Young were both still Wizards.

I mentioned the body language thing earlier. "Wall's attitude at times seems to be he want to match Jordan Crawford's volume of shots." I honesty don't know what that means. Wall is averaging 13 shots per 36 minutes. Crawford is averaging 18.

YES, I think the organization missed the mark a little bit with the way they marketed Wall when he got to town. They put undue pressure on him. They wanted to sell their new regime, excite fans, etc. But, how is ANY of that on Wall?? Has he ever said he's a superstar, all-star, or anything? No, he's a humble kid. He just wants to win. He will.

[JonathanJoseph]

This thread is sorta funny.

Like when females overthink a date by an order of magnitude to figure out why the guy didn't call afterwards. "Maybe the weather was bad or he was tired or maybe I came on too strong or maybe he's just waiting to add suspense...." And then they learn the truth.

"He's just not that into you."

This thread is kind of like that for Wizards fans. Through the first 3 pages, we've got "he needs better teammates, he needs a less-ball dominant 2, he needs a shooter at the 3, he's lost his confidence, maybe he's tired, he didn't have the benefit of training camp or practices, he needs a better coach, he needs to play in a system that highlights his strengths, he's only 21 so we need to have patience."

Maybe he's just not that good.

No one has given up or said that the verdict is in, but it's time to wonder whether maybe that's part of it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Rubio has been playing the pro game since 16. If Wall and Rubio switched teams, Rubio would have the same problems, moreso b/c he's not as athletic as Wall. Rubio's got Love who is a monster, Derrick Williams, Ridnour, etc. He's got 4 or 5 guys shooting over 32% from three. Who do the Wizards have?

This is where the discussion gets ridiculous. The TWolves are 18-13 with Rubio in the starting lineup and 7-18 without.

The idea that the PG is nothing but a product of the pieces around him just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. No, we would not be in the running for worst season in franchise history if Rubio and Wall had switched places and no the Twolves wouldn't be 18-13 with Wall starting.

To make your argument and then some JJ, I think the Wizards would have a better record with Hinrich at PG instead of John Wall. Wall has flat out lost the team some games this season.

I can't put my finger on why, but he has too much talent to say John Wall is not good. Yet, his effectiveness overall is clearly NOT good.

Nivek, you say tired and I've said mentally fatigued. The thing is, he goes in hero mode or shot jack mode too much for a physically tired guy IMO.

[JonathanJoseph]

Three things pop into my head as concerns about Wall: Competitiveness, Intelligence, Attitude.

Wall does not sustain his tenacity. He doesn't try to get physical with his matchup. His idea of competing seems to be to go at them offensively. I would like to see him get more physical, more nasty, learn to hold, grab, push. Cheat. That in addition to his physical gifts would serve him well defensively. On offense, he's got to keep his head in the game to compete better. Too many mental mistakes right now. The most competitive guys don't do that IMO. I will give him a pass on his shooting. He showed touch a month ago. He competed well for a month on offense.

In terms of intelligence it is very simple. Avoid making the same mistakes again and again. nate, that is the concern recently. He IS doing the same things he did last year.

You also picked up on attitude, nate. His body language and overall vibe just aren't right IMO. I've seen some Javale. I also think his 360 reminded me a lot of Nick Young. I thought about Flip's line, "Style over substance". Wall's attitude at times seems to be he want to match Jordan Crawford's volume of shots. Wall doesn't seem to stick with feeding the big men, either.

All-in-all, those things affect his match up play, nate. Wall has been getting his butt handed to him and that is not on McGee. Wall's slump has been since the trade. In February, Wall played his best ball and Javale and Nick Young were both still Wizards.

Nice, balanced take.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

this amazing sucky thread...is really only found on loser boards. I can understand Juan Dixon, but now you are calling our franchise number draft pick player sucky. You make this board lose all credibility. When John Wall can't start for a playoff caliber team, that's when you should be allowed to call him sucky. Indiana Pacers, and Orlando magic would definitely take Wall over what they have starting at point guard.
If i were a player reading these message boards, i couldn't wait to book my first flight out of washington for more appreciative fans. This guys lays his body out for charges, gets knocked to the floor almost everyplay and we call him sucky.
The guy is playing with no other consistent nba playoff caliber starters on the roster and we call him sucky. where is his roy hibbert and danny granger. Where is his kevin garnett and paul pierce. Or time duncan and ginobilli.
He doesn't even have a demarcus cousins on his team. His team has even less talent that what he played on in college.

He's obviously not Amazingly Sucky John Wall, but he has played some amazingly sucky ball the past two or three weeks. He started the season the very same way.

I think the other players on the team have nothing to do with his unforced turnovers, his non-existant three-point shooting, and his propensity to take bad shots and to seemingly forget he is the playmaker. Also, his defense is just as erratic as his shot.

Wall has at times been amazingly sucky considering his hype as a number one overall pick.

WD, this board has some great posters. We are amazingly loyal, passionate fans. This team is 12-42. The record of the Wizards the past 25 years, with the exception of three or four "EFJ" years (I think it is sucky to criticize the last coach who actually won games commensurate with his talent!) has been AMAZINGLY SUCKY. This team has a board and may fans who give a crap??? That is loyalty IMO.

Wall is fast and exciting and, hopefully, he'll get it together and play well on a more consistent basis.

As a fan, I'm going to be honest with my opinions, right or wrong as they may be. It is not about credibility. I'm not into hype. Show me.

[dobrojim]

I usually refrain from these threads

it would seem more appropriate in this instance to have a thread
called the Amazingly Sucky recent play of John Wall.

that is all (mash)

[Dat2U]

I think Rubio is playing better as a result of having better teammates around him. FACT.

Wall has crap to work with. Aside from Nene, and it looks like Booker and Seraphin. But they can't shoot 3s.

I think you are confusing the word fact. We have the data that shows the variable that is "WITH Rubio" and "WITHOUT Rubio" using the same teammates and the difference is dramatic.

Yeah, just ignore any other factors because with Wall, to you everything is so cut and dry.

I guess it's Wall's fault Andray Blatche or anyone else on the Wizards isn't as good as Kevin Love.

Or it's no suprise that you fail to mention that Nikola Pekovic's absense has effected the Wolves as much or more than Rubio getting injured. Or even before getting injured Rubio's play had slipped greatly and his production & effectiveness had started to wain.

[jivelikenice]

I go back to my post from the game thread last night which has been ignored. Please show me another pg who has had to play with 2 guards who shoot or dominate the ball as much as Crawford & Young have. (Crawford is moreso ths issue becuase he needs the ball in his hands to operate). I laid out 9 of the top point guards in the league and none of them plays with a 2 guard like Crawford and it is no coincidence that the slump coincided with Crawford's increased involvement in the offense which occured after the trade.

[Nivek]

Maybe he's just not that good.

No one has given up or said that the verdict is in, but it's time to wonder whether maybe that's part of it.

I think that's worth considering. During an early iteration of my draft research, I looked at his college numbers and found them underwhelming. He rated highly as a prospect because of overwhelming physical tools, but when I look at his college production, I found below average efficiency, a surprisingly low 2pt percentage (.509), not as many steals or blocks as I'd expected given his length and athleticism, and LOTS of turnovers.

In my draft stuff, he rates in a range that includes: Okafor, Carmelo, Arenas, Rose, Faried, Cousins and Crowder.

More highly rated prospects include: Davis, Battier (his college production was incredible), Blake Griffin, Oden, Kenyon Martin, Iguodala, Durant, Jason Richardson, Wade...

[DaRealHibachi]

this amazing sucky thread...is really only found on loser boards. I can understand Juan Dixon, but now you are calling our franchise number draft pick player sucky. You make this board lose all credibility. When John Wall can't start for a playoff caliber team, that's when you should be allowed to call him sucky. Indiana Pacers, and Orlando magic would definitely take Wall over what they have starting at point guard.
If i were a player reading these message boards, i couldn't wait to book my first flight out of washington for more appreciative fans. This guys lays his body out for charges, gets knocked to the floor almost everyplay and we call him sucky.
The guy is playing with no other consistent nba playoff caliber starters on the roster and we call him sucky. where is his roy hibbert and danny granger. Where is his kevin garnett and paul pierce. Or time duncan and ginobilli.
He doesn't even have a demarcus cousins on his team. His team has even less talent that what he played on in college.

Wow... WizD is finally droppin knowledge I can agree on... Great post my man...

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[DaRealHibachi]

Ah the life of a Wizards fan, bitch and moan about not having talent on the team, we luck out and get one of the better point guards in recent memory and we already wanna ship him out after 2 years. Maybe we do deserve to have a losing team.

i don't think he should be untouchable. I wouldn't trade him this early in his career though. But to have a PG who can shoot isn't too much to ask, is it?

Rondo says hi...

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[Nivek]

I thought Ji was going to delete this thread.

[FAH1223]

I thought Ji was going to delete this thread.

Ji is the ultimate jinxer... wach what happens tonight when Wall is out there

[JonathanJoseph]

Yeah, just ignore any other factors because with Wall, to you everything is so cut and dry.

I guess it's Wall's fault Andray Blatche or anyone else on the Wizards isn't as good as Kevin Love.

Or it's no suprise that you fail to mention that Nikola Pekovic's absense has effected the Wolves as much or more than Rubio getting injured. Or even before getting injured Rubio's play had slipped greatly and his production & effectiveness had started to wain.

As per usual, that's not true. I've said repeatedly that it's both, not either/or.

The W/L and on/off numbers show that the Twolves are clearly better with Rubio than without. The W/L and on/off tell a different story about Wall.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I thought Ji was going to delete this thread.

Ji is the ultimate jinxer... wach what happens tonight when Wall is out there

Last time I was attempting to post B-U-S-T Wall went off for several good games over a month's time. I've posted enough hate in the past 24 hours that hopefully, Wall can go off again. Maybe he needs doubters/haters to motivate him.

Maybe he can do a word count on the number of times I have posted "overrated".

I'm hating as hard as I can and Ji just went Amazingly Sucky. We're doing our part.

Wall has to do his now and make us look like reactionary fools. I'm down with that if he is up to it.

[Dat2U]

Yeah, just ignore any other factors because with Wall, to you everything is so cut and dry.

I guess it's Wall's fault Andray Blatche or anyone else on the Wizards isn't as good as Kevin Love.

Or it's no suprise that you fail to mention that Nikola Pekovic's absense has effected the Wolves as much or more than Rubio getting injured. Or even before getting injured Rubio's play had slipped greatly and his production & effectiveness had started to wain.

As per usual, that's not true. I've said repeatedly that it's both, not either/or.

The W/L and on/off numbers show that the Twolves are clearly better with Rubio than without. The W/L and on/off tell a different story about Wall.

I love the generic "that's not true" comment. Is that your automatic response now? Exactly what have I posted that isn't true?

[hands11]

this amazing sucky thread...is really only found on loser boards. I can understand Juan Dixon, but now you are calling our franchise number draft pick player sucky. You make this board lose all credibility. When John Wall can't start for a playoff caliber team, that's when you should be allowed to call him sucky. Indiana Pacers, and Orlando magic would definitely take Wall over what they have starting at point guard.
If i were a player reading these message boards, i couldn't wait to book my first flight out of washington for more appreciative fans. This guys lays his body out for charges, gets knocked to the floor almost everyplay and we call him sucky.
The guy is playing with no other consistent nba playoff caliber starters on the roster and we call him sucky. where is his roy hibbert and danny granger. Where is his kevin garnett and paul pierce. Or time duncan and ginobilli.
He doesn't even have a demarcus cousins on his team. His team has even less talent that what he played on in college.

He's obviously not Amazingly Sucky John Wall, but he has played some amazingly sucky ball the past two or three weeks. He started the season the very same way.

I think the other players on the team have nothing to do with his unforced turnovers, his non-existant three-point shooting, and his propensity to take bad shots and to seemingly forget he is the playmaker. Also, his defense is just as erratic as his shot.

Wall has at times been amazingly sucky considering his hype as a number one overall pick.

WD, this board has some great posters. We are amazingly loyal, passionate fans. This team is 12-42. The record of the Wizards the past 25 years, with the exception of three or four "EFJ" years (I think it is sucky to criticize the last coach who actually won games commensurate with his talent!) has been AMAZINGLY SUCKY. This team has a board and may fans who give a crap??? That is loyalty IMO.

Wall is fast and exciting and, hopefully, he'll get it together and play well on a more consistent basis.

As a fan, I'm going to be honest with my opinions, right or wrong as they may be. It is not about credibility. I'm not into hype. Show me.

Oh God did he start the season the same way. I had actually whipped that from my memory. It was really bad and it didnt need to be.

Stubborn. Bull headed. Entitled. Ego. Call it what you want but he was the one choosing the approach that wasnt working and wasnt going to work. Then it got better. Then worse again. Then better. Actually found his jump shot at one point and it looked wet. Then worst again.

Its all in his approach.

I think people get more frustrated by players who have a world of physical talent and don't live up to it way more then they do someone with less physical talent. Mack is a good example. How mad can you really get at his play. Short of missing wide open jump shoots, he plays well given his skills. The fact that he can drive as well as he does is actually impressive give he doesnt leap that well. Its all position. Its smarts and heart.

Wall can do so much better. Same was true of McGee and it was true of Gil as well. That is what gets people so frustrated. It is in their hands to change their wrongs and they don't. From there, it is easy for people to jump to... is this the right guy and should be not make him untouchable.

[JonathanJoseph]

Yeah, just ignore any other factors because with Wall, to you everything is so cut and dry.

I guess it's Wall's fault Andray Blatche or anyone else on the Wizards isn't as good as Kevin Love.

Or it's no suprise that you fail to mention that Nikola Pekovic's absense has effected the Wolves as much or more than Rubio getting injured. Or even before getting injured Rubio's play had slipped greatly and his production & effectiveness had started to wain.

As per usual, that's not true. I've said repeatedly that it's both, not either/or.

The W/L and on/off numbers show that the Twolves are clearly better with Rubio than without. The W/L and on/off tell a different story about Wall.

I love the generic "that's not true" comment. Is that your automatic response now? Exactly what have I posted that isn't true?

That the correlation is either "bad teammates" or "bad player" when it is "both". If it's "all of the above" then it's probably not "cut and dry".

There's plenty of supporting data that Rubio makes the TWolves better even if the eyeball test didn't make that obvious. There's supporting data that isolates Rubio as a variable, which means it doesn't matter whether it's Pekovic, Love or Blatche playing alongside.

It speaks volumes that I'm finding resistance to the idea that a good PG can and does make his teammates better with supporting data.

[Dat2U]

There's plenty of supporting data that Rubio makes the TWolves better even if the eyeball test didn't make that obvious. There's supporting data that isolates Rubio as a variable, which means it doesn't matter whether it's Pekovic, Love or Blatche playing alongside.

It speaks volumes that I'm finding resistance to the idea that a good PG can and does make his teammates better with supporting data.

So the quality of teammates doesn't matter? So are u actually saying Rubio would make Andray Blatche look good?