Official Countdown Grunfeld Era-2nd SuperStar?

[Zonkerbl]

Dude. You have cancer. Your doctor tells you can take pain killers -- you'll die sooner but happier. Or you can have chemotherapy, but the painkillers won't work if you take the chemo route. The doctor recommends you have chemotherapy. What do you do?

I'm not talking about the unwashed millions of idiots who are not smart enough to own a sports franchise. I'm talking about YOU. What would you do?

[Nivek]

I'm far closer to agreeing with Zonk on the workplace stuff, but not nearly as much on the EG stuff. I used to work for a guy who was an unreasonable jackass. Every year, we'd put on a multi-media presentation for the industry, and he always wanted to jam 15 pounds of **** into a 10-pound bag. Lame jokes, F-list celebs making appearances, more lame jokes, self-aggrandizing ego stroking -- those were his ideas of a good show.

The first year, I nearly quit it was so frustrating. But, the money was too good, so I did the best I could to make things work within the construct this guy wanted.

The next year -- I sorta did what Zonk describes: voice my disagreement with the plan, and then do what I could to actually make the stupid idea into something that might entertaining and/or informative.

Now, EG's case is similar, but different. I seriously doubt Abe told Ernie to trade the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. My guess is that Abe told him he wanted a winner now, and that Ernie then went out and made that trade because he thought it would help the team win now.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Hire Troy Weaver as GM and trust that he will hire the right coach. The right coach for this group could be a lot of guys now. I like Dave Joerger and I'm pretty sure if you screen prospective coaches he would rank highly. Unfortunately, neither of those guys sound like what this owner will do.

Do you want 61-year old Mike D'Antoni? I don't know, unless you think Nash for three years also makes sense. Or, unless you think bringing Jeremy Lin to DC makes sense. John Wall can't hit a three. You have to think about that before you bring in D'Antoni. But will the GM and owner consider it?

The next GM needs to consider which coach can adapt and which can persevere over the long run. A highly qualified, retread coach? Flip didn't work out so well. He was as experienced as they get. But he did not adapt. A plausible hire would be Jeff Van Gundy. He's not too old and he's defensive-minded. Also has a New York connection. Like Doug Collins, he's had some time away from the game. One thing about him is it is his way or no way. This is a very young team. I don't know, but he's a solid coach.

If Ernie stays, and I think he probably will, I expect he will hire one of those two coaches. Those are Ted Leonsis and EG hires. Nothing out-of-the-box. Conservative moves. Keeping Ernie sounds most like Ted.

[WizarDynasty]

getting weaver into this organization before the draft should be ted's main priority. We have two starters on this team and one of them has already given most of his best years to another organization. The roster is filled with bench players who start for any playoff team except wall and nene.

[Zonkerbl]

I'm far closer to agreeing with Zonk on the workplace stuff, but not nearly as much on the EG stuff. I used to work for a guy who was an unreasonable jackass. Every year, we'd put on a multi-media presentation for the industry, and he always wanted to jam 15 pounds of **** into a 10-pound bag. Lame jokes, F-list celebs making appearances, more lame jokes, self-aggrandizing ego stroking -- those were his ideas of a good show.

The first year, I nearly quit it was so frustrating. But, the money was too good, so I did the best I could to make things work within the construct this guy wanted.

The next year -- I sorta did what Zonk describes: voice my disagreement with the plan, and then do what I could to actually make the stupid idea into something that might entertaining and/or informative.

Now, EG's case is similar, but different. I seriously doubt Abe told Ernie to trade the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. My guess is that Abe told him he wanted a winner now, and that Ernie then went out and made that trade because he thought it would help the team win now.

It's hard to make a judgement about EG just based on his interactions with Abe Pollin - after all, maybe he did stand up to Abe and Abe refused to be budged. You and I have seen that happen. That's why I mention his clashes with EJ and Arenas, and the whole weird Thibs thing.

[gesa2]

And if you must know, my job, among other things, is to use what I know about economics to convince policy makers that their ideas are dumb. Usually they are policy makers in another government agency but sometimes they are my immediate superiors. I cannot think of one instance where I knew my boss was wrong about something and I did not say something about it. I did get fired for it once, but that was because I was a jerk about it. I've gotten better at it over time.

Zonk - I do agree your post, especially that the employee's job is to speak truth to his/her boss, regardless of the consequences. That said, when you make your best case and the boss still goes the other way, what do you do? (I know in your previous post, you said that you failed, which I agree with.) But practically, do you?

A) Quit
B) Refuse to carry out the order (which should rightfully result in your termination)
C) Ignore it and hope it goes away
D) Do it anyway but complain about it behind your boss' back
E) Follow the direction, and do your best to promote the positive without undermining your organization

Again - I'm not arguing that any of this happened in EG's case, nor that he did all that he could to persuade Abe to take a certain course of action. But IF he did all that, and Abe still said "Do ______" as a direct order, I don't think he would be obligated to quit over it unless it was (as my former boss used to say) illegal, immoral, or unethical.

In other words, re: the bolded part of your statement above, there's a world of difference between "say(ing) something about it" and Quitting - or refusing an order, which has the same net effect.



(By the way, my course of action is regrettably all too often D, so I am living in the biggest glass house you ever saw on this one....)

Funny to see the SVG stuff today after reading this. I wonder how it was presented to him that Howard wanted him gone, and what options he thought about before openly talking to the press seemed like the right one. Is this a good guy who's being asked to swallow too much crap, or is he a backroom politician? I'm not sure I know the answer well enough to want him if he leaves Orlando.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

gesa, when he said "What time is it? 12:02? They can fire me at 12:05 and I will find something nice to do", SVG sounded to me like a really confident guy. He has an exit strategy, most likely.

I feel that way in my current employer. I know I will find work somewhere else, because that place is MY choice. Others have called. Not trying to cut off my nose, and I like this employer, but the second they suggest I show myself to the door, they don't have to worry about me finding my way out to another gig. Change is the one constant and I try to roll with it the best I can. SVG will get another job, if not the Wizards job.

I think SVG is probably more sick of Dwight than the vice versa.

If I were in SVG's position I would want to get fired before the end of the season. There is less competition that way and he's the guy in the news right now. D'Antoni, JVG, Saunders and other coaches are available but none can say they had the record he at their last stop that SVG has now at ORL.

[thinker07]

Dude. You have cancer. Your doctor tells you can take pain killers -- you'll die sooner but happier. Or you can have chemotherapy, but the painkillers won't work if you take the chemo route. The doctor recommends you have chemotherapy. What do you do?

I'm not talking about the unwashed millions of idiots who are not smart enough to own a sports franchise. I'm talking about YOU. What would you do?

I guess I see why you post what you do. You think things can be simplified into basic obvious choices. You must not have ever known someone with cancer. BTW if chemo wouldn't extend your life with some quality, most doctors won't recommend it. In fact the scenario isn't how doctor work or present options. Just like things don't get painted that way in Abe or Ted;s office.

What would I do? Am I married or alone? Do I have lots of money to pay for things or not or what kind of insurance do I have OR not? HOW much pain? How bad of side effects from the chemo? What's the overall quality of my life with the chemo? How out of it would I be on the pain pills? Happter? What does that mean - everybody has a different notion of what that is. How long would I live on the pills vs. how long would I live on the chemo? Do I have kids? Am I in the middle of some kind of project that I want to finish?

I just don't find that many people's lives line up in a way that it's very obvious what the smart thing to do is.

[gesa2]

I guess I see why you post what you do. You think things can be simplified into basic obvious choices. You must not have ever known someone with cancer. BTW if chemo wouldn't extend your life with some quality, most doctors won't recommend it. In fact the scenario isn't how doctor work or present options. Just like things don't get painted that way in Abe or Ted;s office.

...

I just don't find that many people's lives line up in a way that it's very obvious what the smart thing to do is.

I understand your point that few important decisions are simple, and it's valid and relevant to the discussions about Ernie. But I think Zonker was trying to simplify the issues to make a point, not as a reflection of some character defect.

And for what it's worth, trading away the 5th pick for Foye and Miller was obviously NOT the smart thing to do, even if Abe was giving Ernie a "win now" mandate.

[Severn Hoos]

Now, EG's case is similar, but different. I seriously doubt Abe told Ernie to trade the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. My guess is that Abe told him he wanted a winner now, and that Ernie then went out and made that trade because he thought it would help the team win now.

This has been an interesting discussion, and I think we may just find that rabbit any minute now if we keep going down these trails...

And I think Kev's guess is most likely correct. I'd bet that Abe told him to win now, and maybe even told him that he didn't want to add a rookie who (presumably) wouldn't help much in the standings. That's very different from defending the trade itself, which is pretty close to indefensible. But IF it did happen, it does deflect one primary line of criticism, which is that EG should have drafted Curry (or Rubio or whoever).

[Zonkerbl]

Dude. You have cancer. Your doctor tells you can take pain killers -- you'll die sooner but happier. Or you can have chemotherapy, but the painkillers won't work if you take the chemo route. The doctor recommends you have chemotherapy. What do you do?

I'm not talking about the unwashed millions of idiots who are not smart enough to own a sports franchise. I'm talking about YOU. What would you do?

I guess I see why you post what you do. You think things can be simplified into basic obvious choices. You must not have ever known someone with cancer. BTW if chemo wouldn't extend your life with some quality, most doctors won't recommend it. In fact the scenario isn't how doctor work or present options. Just like things don't get painted that way in Abe or Ted;s office.

What would I do? Am I married or alone? Do I have lots of money to pay for things or not or what kind of insurance do I have OR not? HOW much pain? How bad of side effects from the chemo? What's the overall quality of my life with the chemo? How out of it would I be on the pain pills? Happter? What does that mean - everybody has a different notion of what that is. How long would I live on the pills vs. how long would I live on the chemo? Do I have kids? Am I in the middle of some kind of project that I want to finish?

I just don't find that many people's lives line up in a way that it's very obvious what the smart thing to do is.

Thank you for conceding my point by refusing to address it.

[thinker07]

Dude. You have cancer. Your doctor tells you can take pain killers -- you'll die sooner but happier. Or you can have chemotherapy, but the painkillers won't work if you take the chemo route. The doctor recommends you have chemotherapy. What do you do?

I'm not talking about the unwashed millions of idiots who are not smart enough to own a sports franchise. I'm talking about YOU. What would you do?

I guess I see why you post what you do. You think things can be simplified into basic obvious choices. You must not have ever known someone with cancer. BTW if chemo wouldn't extend your life with some quality, most doctors won't recommend it. In fact the scenario isn't how doctor work or present options. Just like things don't get painted that way in Abe or Ted;s office.

What would I do? Am I married or alone? Do I have lots of money to pay for things or not or what kind of insurance do I have OR not? HOW much pain? How bad of side effects from the chemo? What's the overall quality of my life with the chemo? How out of it would I be on the pain pills? Happter? What does that mean - everybody has a different notion of what that is. How long would I live on the pills vs. how long would I live on the chemo? Do I have kids? Am I in the middle of some kind of project that I want to finish?

I just don't find that many people's lives line up in a way that it's very obvious what the smart thing to do is.

Thank you for conceding my point by refusing to address it.

You are so right - I must be stupid just like your bosses who sometimes fail to follow your advice even though you have a background in economics. I didn't fail to address your point - your point was a lame hypothetical that bears no relation to any actual decision that a person would actually have to make -- in those overly simplistic terms. Big decisions are almost always way more complicated than how you are presenting your argument. It's typical of people who watch things from the outside and think that everything is so simple and if only they were in charge everything would always work out smoothly.

[montestewart]

OK. Now that that's settled, can we get back to firing EG?

[Zonkerbl]

Dude, you're not going to distract me with ad hominem remarks. I presented you a simplified example because you refused to address the point I was making. And you still refuse to address it because, apparently, I'm stupid and mean. I don't find that convincing.

[thinker07]

Dude, you're not going to distract me with ad hominem remarks. I presented you a simplified example because you refused to address the point I was making. And you still refuse to address it because, apparently, I'm stupid and mean. I don't find that convincing.

My last comment here on this thread - Huh?

Stupid and mean? I didn't even imply that. You don't seem to be either based on this discussion. You do seem to think that a lot other people are stupid though - and I probably agree with you.

[hands11]

Now, EG's case is similar, but different. I seriously doubt Abe told Ernie to trade the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. My guess is that Abe told him he wanted a winner now, and that Ernie then went out and made that trade because he thought it would help the team win now.

This has been an interesting discussion, and I think we may just find that rabbit any minute now if we keep going down these trails...

And I think Kev's guess is most likely correct. I'd bet that Abe told him to win now, and maybe even told him that he didn't want to add a rookie who (presumably) wouldn't help much in the standings. That's very different from defending the trade itself, which is pretty close to indefensible. But IF it did happen, it does deflect one primary line of criticism, which is that EG should have drafted Curry (or Rubio or whoever).

Really ?

This horse has been so beaten its not even funny. Actually it has been beaten to death, buried and all that is left are the bones at this point.

You want to judge EGs moves? Keep it simple and based on facts, not opinions..

EG arrived after Abe already selected the HC. If there is any no balls thing to judge him about, that was it. What GM comes to a crappy franchise where the owner already selected the HC and who doesn't spend like the winning franchise do? It's not like a coach had been here for 3 years winning or anything. EFJ was a brand new coach selected just months before EG was hired. This provides some insight into who EG was at the time and how involved Abe was. He was a GM looking for a job post his MIL gig. I mean he came to the Wizards who sucked for years (one of the worst in the league) and for an owner who just back stabbed MJ and already picked the HC. To me, the facts show he was desperate for a GM job. At his age, he wanted to get back on the stage for fear that his name would become dusty enough that he never got another pro gig. Personally, I was really happy when I heard he was coming here considering the GMs we had before him. The front office here had been a mess for years. Abe was the Dan Synder of Basketball without the big spending. At least EG was a professional level GM. But just given these facts, you can already see he would compromise what he knew was an ideal situation for a chance to get in the game and get paid. Plus Abe was old and wasn't likely to own to team for long term. So he excepted, got paid and got back on the stage. And many years later, he is still here. He outlasted Abe and he added some good moves to his resume. So while some argue how he should have handled his boss differently, it looks like he was pretty smart in what he did. EFJ is gone and out of the league after failing at this second HC job. And is Abe no longer the owner. He outlasted them both.

Look what he did once he got here. While some moves are subject to interpretation because people will take one side or another on how much Abe handcuffed him, some clearly are all his. So look at those moves that are clearly his.

What moves were made when he got here. More likely EG influenced moves.
Gilbert, AJ, and CB for Kwame. DS for next to nothing. All EG

What moves did he make once Abe was gone. Not not influenced by Abe.

The extending Gil, AJ, trading the pick, that is the stuff that is not clearly EG influenced. Not that there aren't facts to support understanding what role Abe played in these but people dont seem to want to except those so they come up with all kinds of opinions on what EG should have done to tell his boss no. Well, I already laid out the foundation of who EG was coming into the job.

He know it wasnt an ideal situation when he excepted the job and he would compromise to keep his job so he could keep building his resume. He tried to bring in Tibb. EG was no EFJ fan so to think he extended EFJs contract a year before it expired on his own is beyond not understanding what was going on. But put all that aside since people can't read between the lines.

If EG leaves, he can put together a resume showing clearly what were his moves and he can explain what happened on the ones that were not. I'm sure this is what has been explained to Ted and it will get explained to any future owners if he leaves this organization. He has proven to be a good GM so he will get another job.

There are moves we know are EGs. Judge those first and with the most weight.

What moves did were made when he got here.
What moves were made once Abe was gone.
And add he brought Tibbs in to help EFJs crappy defense. He also was able to bring in Flip who would have been a good coach for a jump shooting team of AJ, CB and Gil.

There is plenty here to debate just taking the moves post Abe. Hell, I would have taken Jeremy Tyler over Mack with that second pick.

[Dat2U]

Now, EG's case is similar, but different. I seriously doubt Abe told Ernie to trade the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye. My guess is that Abe told him he wanted a winner now, and that Ernie then went out and made that trade because he thought it would help the team win now.

This has been an interesting discussion, and I think we may just find that rabbit any minute now if we keep going down these trails...

And I think Kev's guess is most likely correct. I'd bet that Abe told him to win now, and maybe even told him that he didn't want to add a rookie who (presumably) wouldn't help much in the standings. That's very different from defending the trade itself, which is pretty close to indefensible. But IF it did happen, it does deflect one primary line of criticism, which is that EG should have drafted Curry (or Rubio or whoever).

Really ?

This horse has been so beaten its not even funny. Actually it has been beaten to death, buried and all that is left are the bones at this point.

You want to judge EGs moves? Keep it simple and based on facts, not opinions..

EG arrived after Abe already selected the HC. If there is any no balls thing to judge him about, that was it. What GM comes to a crappy franchise where the owner already selected the HC and who doesn't spend like the winning franchise do? It's not like a coach had been here for 3 years winning or anything. EFJ was a brand new coach selected just months before EG was hired. This provides some insight into who EG was at the time and how involved Abe was. He was a GM looking for a job post his MIL gig. I mean he came to the Wizards who sucked for years (one of the worst in the league) and for an owner who just back stabbed MJ and already picked the HC. To me, the facts show he was desperate for a GM job. At his age, he wanted to get back on the stage for fear that his name would become dusty enough that he never got another pro gig. Personally, I was really happy when I heard he was coming here considering the GMs we had before him. The front office here had been a mess for years. Abe was the Dan Synder of Basketball without the big spending. At least EG was a professional level GM. But just given these facts, you can already see he would compromise what he knew was an ideal situation for a chance to get in the game and get paid. Plus Abe was old and wasn't likely to own to team for long term. So he excepted, got paid and got back on the stage. And many years later, he is still here. He outlasted Abe and he added some good moves to his resume. So while some argue how he should have handled his boss differently, it looks like he was pretty smart in what he did. EFJ is gone and out of the league after failing at this second HC job. And is Abe no longer the owner. He outlasted them both.

Look what he did once he got here. While some moves are subject to interpretation because people will take one side or another on how much Abe handcuffed him, some clearly are all his. So look at those moves that are clearly his.

What moves did he make when he got here. Those were clearly EG moves.
Gilbert, AJ, and CB for Kwame. DS for next to nothing. All EG

What moves did he make once Abe was gone. Again, clearly EG moves.

The extending Gil, AJ, trading the pick, that is the stuff that are not clearly EG moves. Not that there aren't facts to support understanding what role Abe played in these but people dont seem to want to except those so they come up with all kinds of opinions on what EG should have done to tell his boss no. Well, I already laid out the foundation of who EG was coming into the job.

He know it wasnt an ideal situation when he excepted the job and he would compromise to keep his job so he could keep building his resume. He tried to bring in Tibb. EG was no EFJ fan so to think he extended EFJs contract a year before it expired on his own is beyond not understanding what was going on. But put all that aside since people can't read between the lines.

If EG leaves, he can put together a resume showing clearly what were his moves and he can explain what happened on the ones that were not. I'm sure this is what has been explained to Ted and it will get explained to any future owners if he leaves this organization. He has proven to be a good GM so he will get another job.

There are moves we know are EGs. Judge those first and with the most weight.

What moves did he make when he got here.
What moves did he make once Abe was gone.
And add he brought Tibbs in to help EFJs crappy defense. He also was able to bring in Flip who would have been a good coach for a jump shooting team of AJ, CB and Gil.

There is plenty here to debate just taking the moves we know were his. Hell, I would have taken Jeremy Tyler over Mack with that second pick.

Me thinks you need a dictionary because you seemed confused.

Your telling folks to just stick to the facts when your post is filled with your own opinion and views.

[montestewart]

EG was on the job and signed Arenas originally, but I recall this story:

http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?/ ... k-in-2003/

If Pollin is as intrusive as is presumed, and as loyal and deferential to Unseld as is presumed, and Unseld was promoting an Arenas signing as soon as Eddie Jordan was on board, maybe Pollin told Grunfeld to pursue Arenas. Regardless, it's a good thing EJ wasn't the GM.


EDIT: In case it's not clear what I'm saying Hands11, you don't know that the original Arenas signing (or any other signing) was "clearly all his," but you have a tendency to assign credit to EG for any deal that was a win for the Wizards, and blame to Pollin for any deal that was a loss for the Wizards.

[hands11]

Wow, there's some sad people out there. Obviously you pick your fights, but if you just lay down when it matters... you're not doing your job. I could also say you're being a pussy, but I think that's obvious to everyone.

Call it what you want but he is one of a handful of people who is a GM in the NBA. A job a ton of people would love to have.

He survived a bad old owner and built out his resume giving him a better chance to remain a GM in the NBA. As such GM, he just pulled off another nice move to add to his resume. He got Nene for McGee and Nick. Both players who were not working out here and who were likely gone from the team either next year ( Nick ) or the next year or the year after ( McGee ) And in sending them out, he added a bed rock vet awesome dude that is smart, mature and productive. Nene. Add that the resume along with a lot of other nice moves.

He also survived a change in ownership.

I say that is pretty smart and effective.

He did well here on the moves we can clearly assign to him. Well enough to get another gig with another franchise if he gets shipped out. He and Ted have worked well together. You can argue last years picks. That is fair but as we see with KS and Booker, you can't really judge a draft class based on year 1 production. Specially with no summer camp and little practice time in a condensed season. They designed a team to tank one more year ( strike short year ) by adding defense ( Singleton ) and a 2-3 project ( Ves ). It will take until next year mid season to see if they were the right picks but that was the plan and tank they did. Top 5 pick on the way.

I haven't agreed with all of this moves post Abe, but it would be premature to judge the final product since (1) we dont used the top 5 pick we have on the way and (2) we only got the see 8 games with Nene because they are committed to getting that top 5 pick.

What Ted and EG are putting together will get its first real change to produce starting next year. We got a glimpse for 8 games a Nene and it looked pretty sound with a top 5 defense. If it is a good product set up in a sound way with room to grow for years to come and EG is not here to get credit for it, that would be an injustice.

After all the crap ownership and organization he had to deal with, he deserves a chance to finish what he started under this new owner.

[hands11]

EG was on the job and signed Arenas originally, but I recall this story:

http://forums.rotoworld.com/index.php?/ ... k-in-2003/

If Pollin is as intrusive as is presumed, and as loyal and deferential to Unseld as is presumed, and Unseld was promoting an Arenas signing as soon as Eddie Jordan was on board, maybe Pollin told Grunfeld to pursue Arenas. Regardless, it's a good thing EJ wasn't the GM.


EDIT: In case it's not clear what I'm saying Hands11, you don't know that the original Arenas signing (or any other signing) was "clearly all his," but you have a tendency to assign credit to EG for any deal that was a win for the Wizards, and blame to Pollin for any deal that was a loss for the Wizards.

No, what I did was take two areas that were more clearly EG moves. I defined those as moves that happened right after he arrived and ones that were after Abe was gone. I thought that was reasonable when compared to the mucky middle ground.

It seemed reasonable to define moves made by a brand new GM as moves assigned to that GM. If you dont want to concede those as his moves then all you have are the moves made after Abe as clearly his. You can do it that way as well.

With Abe and without Abe.

Separating a GMs moves from ownership is not an easy thing to do since they are so connected . I am attempting to frame the conversation the best it can be to try to separate something that is not easy to seperate.

I am not picking good EG moves vs bad. I am picking time periods.

As for the comment that I interjected opinions by DAT. That is beyond missing what I posted. I clearly stated where I did that regarding the mucky middle. I also said that is not the important part. Ignore it. The circumstance of his arrival are facts. So are the moves after Abe. So are a ton of other facts I posted. Get a clue brother. I included the moves made right after he got here because that seemed clearly more him. You hire a new GM, you would think the moves made right after that would be his moves. If even that is to fussy for some, then ignore those also and just do "with Abe and without Abe."