Nets Trade For Deron Williams (Merging)

[vincecarter4pres]

IMHO Favors is going to be an absolute monster by season 4 of his career.

[jerseyjac]

I think the mistake you're making is that you're looking at it from the view point of: things we traded instead of focusing on the actual players that were involved. We traded two top 3 picks... ok. But look at the players that were actually involved. Favors isn't projected to be a top 10 player anytime in his career. Kanter has been blah for pretty much most of his rookie season. They probably won't even get the GSW's pick this year either.

Favors and Kanter may turn into really good players, but, so what? We traded what could be good players down the road for a great player in his prime.

People get too enamored with youth movements and forget that most of the time they need to have luck come Draft time and nab a future superstar. If not, teams with good young players peak into teams like the 76ers and the Blazers or are just stay terrible like the Warriors and Kings.

This, The Nets are trying to win now they had to do what they had to do after missing out on Melo and the 2010 Free Agency. With the move to Brooklyn they probably didn't want to open up with a rebuilding squad

First off, I'm not trying to fault the actual Deron Williams trade.

I applaud the actual gamble and understand going into Brooklyn why they felt they had to make that move for a prime Deron Williams specifically and especially considering they thought we had a great chance at Dwight.

2nd, I don't think, I know this is the mistake you're making Jeff.

You can't look at the specific players. It doesn't work like that.

Utah chose to take Kanter.
Nothing says we had to, he wasn't a consensus #3 pick, about 3 guys could have been taken in that spot without it being a reach, including a certain Euro center who is going annihilation mode over their right now.

We could have traded back and picked up an asset or simply dumped Petro.

We could have traded just this #3 overall pick for a good player.

Favors you can sort of look at, but at the same we have to look at his value and what it was and likely still is around the league. A lot of teams would have loved him.

Pritchard supposedly offered LMA and their pick(21st overall),for Favors and Harris as one example.

Another was Bird offered Granger and the 10th for Harris and the 3rd.

And again, you're not be honest here with the he never was viewed as having top 10 player line, cause a majority were calling him Amar'e with defense and Dwight Howard v2.0 and prime pre-injury Antonio McDyess as his potential ceiling and that tag has yet to be lifted and I'm not talking Nets fans, or even fans period, I'm talking GM's and draft experts.

Then you add the filler of Harris and the GSW pick in?

Harris was about to be dealt to Portland for Andre Miller and a minimum of one of the picks they sent to Charlotte for Wallace or at least Elliot Williams.

If not there, the rumor was to Dallas for Butler's expiring, a pick and Dominique Jones.

Those 2 teams really wanted him, so a mini bidding war certainly may have happened where we at least got 2 middling firsts.

So again, you're making the mistake of looking at it as, Harris isn't that good and hey look, he's completely fallen off and sucks this year.

That's the wrong way to look at it again, when we were dealing him anyway for some real value.

Then the GSW pick? Either they luck out and get the 8th or 9th overall this year, or they almost definitely get the 11th to 20th pick next year, in what looks like another good draft.

And again, forget the young players any of these plethora of picks represents, just think about the value picks have league wide when dealing with other front offices that aren't the retardos known as Billy and Bobby.

We gave up sick, sick, sick value, its not arguable.

If you're arguing that, you're either trying to comfort yourself in case Deron walks, or it's a little inner homer leaking out, or a combination of both.


We've had a rough week and rough season, I'm not trying to argue with you guys, so I imagine we're going to agree to disagree, but what I'm laying out here really is not my opinion, it's essentially easily recognizable fact.


And last time, to reiterate, I am not saying the trade was a bad idea, but I call it how I see it.

There was definitely serious value on the table with all the pieces included in the Deron Williams trade...I'm not interested in a debate of whether the Nets overpaid for DWill, but I will say the discussion leading up to the Nets and Jazz making that trade had a lot to do with fillers...you think the Jazz were just going to accept Harris and a bag chips and say thank you very much...and don't be naive to think you know exactly what other teams were willing to give up in other trades...I believe the Nets front office were flat out prepared to trump any other offer on the table as well give up exactly what the Jazz wanted...why, because there are times you go all in...

More importantly, some will talk about how the trade was not a bad idea but the fact is we overpaid...well, then you underestimate DWill, the potential he provides for any NBA organization and the automatic opportunity to build now rather than later, entering Brooklyn...

I believe we did what it took to get DWill and let the chips fall where they may...

[JoseRizal]

I think the X-Factor in the trade with the Jazz is not Favors, it's the 2011 3rd overall pick.

Utah used that pick to take Kanter, but have we used it I'm not sure Kanter would be our top priority with Brook in tow.

I agree with the rest that it's a very valuable pick as we could've used it to either draft the BPA or trade it for a player we need.

Regardless of how that draft will turn out to be, a 3rd overall pick is still very valuable!

The only reason some devaluates the pick is because it was converted to Kanter. But remember, during the time of the trade, we traded the pick and not Kanter (the player)...

[NyCeEvO]

I think the X-Factor in the trade with the Jazz is not Favors, it's the 2011 3rd overall pick.

Utah used that pick to take Kanter, but have we used it I'm not sure Kanter would be our top priority with Brook in tow.

I agree with the rest that it's a very valuable pick as we could've used it to either draft the BPA or trade it for a player we need.

Regardless of how that draft will turn out to be, a 3rd overall pick is still very valuable!

The only reason some devaluates the pick is because it was converted to Kanter. But remember, during the time of the trade, we traded the pick and not Kanter (the player)...

Exactly, and if there's one fatal flaw in BK's thinking, it's that he completely disregards how valuable a draft pick can be as an asset.

I think we could have found a way to keep the pick in the trade and use it for tons of other purposes. Instead, BK just throws away picks like they're useless.

[The Hypnotoad]

I think the X-Factor in the trade with the Jazz is not Favors, it's the 2011 3rd overall pick.

Utah used that pick to take Kanter, but have we used it I'm not sure Kanter would be our top priority with Brook in tow.

I agree with the rest that it's a very valuable pick as we could've used it to either draft the BPA or trade it for a player we need.

Regardless of how that draft will turn out to be, a 3rd overall pick is still very valuable!

The only reason some devaluates the pick is because it was converted to Kanter. But remember, during the time of the trade, we traded the pick and not Kanter (the player)...

Exactly, and if there's one fatal flaw in BK's thinking, it's that he completely disregards how valuable a draft pick can be as an asset.

I think we could have found a way to keep the pick in the trade and use it for tons of other purposes. Instead, BK just throws away picks like they're useless.

And what stinks most about that is that theres absolutely no real straight value for these picks that he's throwing around like nothing. So its not like he has to match money, there is just no monitoring system for the guy to get ripped off by not protecting a first rounder or giving away too many. Thats's really where a good GM makes his money because if he's going to not figure out the value of what ALL of the teams assests are other than the players on the payroll then he's not doing his job well. There's absolutely NO reason why he couldn't have Top-10 protected the first rounder to Portland other than Portland playing a little hard ball with us. He flinched first, and he's gonna cost this team probably Dwight Howard with that stupid move.

[therealbig3]

The thing with Dwight though, Orlando really doesn't want Brook I don't think...if they liked him like they liked Bynum, then we would have had Dwight last summer, no doubt in my mind. And I can't say without good reason, Brook is a very flawed player and doesn't really provide what you want from a big man. And he recently had a major injury. I can see why they're skeptical with Lopez.

So yeah, we stupidly threw away a pick, true, but I don't think Howard is lost if he really is going to be available in the summer. If they want picks, and they don't want Lopez, I think we could acquire 2-3 1st rounders in a S&T for Lopez, and send those picks to Orlando as part of a D12 trade.

Wallace/Brooks/picks for Howard.

And if we do somehow end up with a top 3 pick, I think getting Howard goes back to being "likely".

[enetric]

I think the mistake you're making is that you're looking at it from the view point of: things we traded instead of focusing on the actual players that were involved. We traded two top 3 picks... ok. But look at the players that were actually involved. Favors isn't projected to be a top 10 player anytime in his career. Kanter has been blah for pretty much most of his rookie season. They probably won't even get the GSW's pick this year either.

Favors and Kanter may turn into really good players, but, so what? We traded what could be good players down the road for a great player in his prime.

People get too enamored with youth movements and forget that most of the time they need to have luck come Draft time and nab a future superstar. If not, teams with good young players peak into teams like the 76ers and the Blazers or are just stay terrible like the Warriors and Kings.

See, I actually think its the opposite. Its too soon to be talking about the end value of the talent sent out. What we gave up was massive trade flexibility, perhaps before we were ready to support what we gained. You have to look at it as THESE picks...not these players as you said.

First, who knows if we would have taken Kanter. And if we did...who knows what he anyone else taken in that spot would be on our team. The NBA is all about opportunity.

We could have cultivated these players on our terrible team the last two years and how do you know you arent looking at a guy as as good as Lopez in Kanter? And that Favors doesnt bust out this season with minutes?

If Marshon Brooks had been drafted by a team with good guard depth...does anyone know who he is this season? The ultimate example will of course be Jeremy Lin. From 10 day contract player to untouchable. That's the NBA and this is the reason you cant judge a trade like this simply on level of play of who you gave up.


What we did was made a choice of direction as a franchise. This isnt about who we got or who we gave up but where we wanted to go and how quickly we wanted to get there.

We could have followed the Portland, OKC path. As in keep drafting top 5 picks. Not all of them are Durant or Westbrook....but you can get one in there...along with a Harden and an Aldridge.

And I am not saying stick to the youth movement forever. Not saying you cant make a trade. And in fact...you can. Just as we did going in for Deron. You can deal for someone at any point as you stockpile assets. And that's why I say we dealt flexibility...perhaps bfore we were ready to support and retain the star we acquired.

Was it wrong? Well, it remains to be seen. But it was gutsy. And as I have said since the Dwight Howard fiasco played out...King took a major risk. You fail that big...you pay with your job. End of story.

Now....as a fan any of you can chose to support the gutsy "get the star now" move regardless of his soon to be expiring contract and Utah's fear he was a goner...but if we fail to secure him...then there has to be accountability. We paid a big price. As in...three year set back towards rebuilding...MINIMUM.

Two lottery picks given up...two years of development and talent to trade in a different deal, plus the follow up disaster of this year's pick to try and appease Deron with Gerald Wallace. Should Deron bolt...rewind to Brook Lopez as the last lottery pick kept to build with after the Kidd era ended.

And then we START AGAIN. But now, Brook will be off his rook contract and will be a lower trade asset as a result. Again, that was a huge risk to take. We easily could have had a nice core of rookie contracts all playing together...the cap space because of their rookie contracts taking up such a small amount of our cap...to spend on a big name. Then...the chance to trade for a bigger star later with the prospects...or sign some of them to go over the cap.

There was a choice. And the choice was impatience. If you pull off keeping Deron...and get another superstar to come with him through free agency...good gamble. But if you lose...you set back your franchise for a very long time.

As a fan want to support the gamble? Ok.. But if it fails...its not wiped away with...well these players dont look special on Utah who has Al Jeff and Millsap in front of them. Their play on that team has NO bearing on this trade or its result at this point. If this gamble fails...its an epic failure. And if King isnt fired...there are simply no words.

[enetric]

Look at it this way: Let's say the Nets pick, around sixth, gets sent to the Blazers, and they decide to draft, I don't know, William Buford, who immediately busts out of the league (not saying he will in real life, just hypothetically). Would you then look back at the Wallace trade and say "oh, wow, the Nets did well there; they only gave up William Buford"?

No, of course you wouldn't, that would be an idiotic thing to do. So then, pray tell, why are you doing that in this situation?

The value given up in the Deron trade was humongous, and like Vince said, that's not discrediting the legitimacy of the trade itself, just stating a fact.

Apple and oranges...

As much as I like Wallace, he wasn't worth trading a potential 4th to 7th pick...He just wasn't. Deron on the other hand was worth everything we gave up. We didn't give up a Kevin Durant or a Derrick Rose. We gave up Favors who doesn't project as an all star player.

I'm never gonna justify the Wallace trade even if the player they draft with our pick is the next Araujo, because the value of the pick was huge and could have possibly net us another star like Josh Smith.

The value given for Deron was fine, you guys seem to be forgetting that we would have given up even more AND would have taken back bad contracts if we had traded for Melo.

Its a fine package if we retain him. But if Deron walks and you get to say...a few games last season and a bunch in the shortened lock out year and we gave up two #3 picks which had huge trade elsewhere, plus Harris, Plus the GSW pick...and possibly this years lottery pick to try and appease Deron...and it fails?


And then you look back it three missed playoff season from now? This gamble will be the gift that keeps on giving.

Lets see what Deron does. Look, I liked the trade at the time...but never wavered. I said at the time this is a huge gamble. That its foolish to say...no big deal...a couple of unknowns for a superstar.

Player for player...of course you prefer Deron. But if this comes down to...all that compensation and we have ZERO to show for it???? Then what? What will you say then? Nice try? Way to go? Lets spend the next three years of losing so we can get some more top 3 picks we can do this with all over again?

Its more than talent value. Its time. Its flexibility to other things. We will know in a few months if Deron was worth it.

[enetric]

The Knix did not give up more for Melo, that is fact not opinion and it's absurd to argue that one. That actually gets me very annoyed when people play that bull **** angle.

Felton is ****ing garbage.

Chandler is nothing more then an average starter at best.

Mozgoof is nothing more then a rotation bench big.

Gallo is a very nice young prospect but wildly inconsistent and his ceiling seems limited, along with being incredibly injury prone including major back surgery at a young age.

The pick swap maybe the best part of the deal.

It has no comparison to back to back #3 overall picks, the Golden State pick which is also an almost top 10 lotto lock in a great draft, oh and Devin Harris.

It just doesn't.

See that's not fair. You dont want him breaking down the talent given out and you just did it with the Knicks package.

Of course I agree with you that our package was potentially more valuable. But...the Knicks did pay more in flexibility than we did. We retained our most valuable piece in Brook Lopez, plus a ton of picks for future deals, plus good expiring contracts and upcoming cap space.

The Knicks gave everything they had that wasnt nailed down to make that deal. THe only tradeable asset they had left at the time was the Billups contacts. Then the foolishly used the Amnexty clause to over pay for Chandler...and at that point wedged themselves perfectly into a .500 team with no flexibility to do anything major in the coming seasons.

So in that regard...they screwed themselves much worse. We made a cleaner deal. Got a better superstar and swapped slow growth for the big splash but acquired one of the few great players in the NBA you want to build around. We retained the path to add talent around him.

So you have to factor that in with the way the NBA works.

[enetric]

No, you're overrating the perception of those Knix players by a ton, only Knix fans and a small percentage of ESPN idiots agree.

And no, the Jazz would not have taken that over our deal.

It's not even close. The value that we sent out blows the Knix package out of the water with an apocalyptic nuclear warhead.

#3
#3
Top 10 lotto pick
Devin Harris

The hypocrisy is mind blowing.

You tell me about perception and how Felton was considered above average then tell me Harris sucks when teams like Portland and Dallas wanted Harris over Felton specifically.


Gallo was a nice piece. The pick swap option in 2016 might be great.


Other then that the package was a bunch of filler and spare parts from a junkyard that you won't even remember in 5 or 6 years.

I agree. Not over our package But instead of? Yes. Their GM said so. Whoever didnt got Melo...they were waiting to call about a Deron trade.

[NyCeEvO]

Here's what Proky had to say about BK and Avery today. This was taken from Bondy's transcript (http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/nets/2 ... -own-words):

Jobs of Avery Johnson and Billy King? I think Billy and Avery, they are doing great job. We have a common view, not only on the day-to-day routine but on our strategic goal. Just to have a championship team we need to be global view, strategic view and you need to have the common knowledge of how to reach this. So from my point of view, we have a great team spirit and we need a little bit of luck, because the team is very professional, and I hope next season we’ll be much, much better than the previous two.

Unfortunately, I read this as no matter what happens, neither will be removed from their posts this offseason, even if D-Will leaves.

I know Proky wouldn't come out and say he's going to fire BK for not retaining D-Will, but Proky is simply the manager. From Day 1, he's said that he manages from the top down and will let others run the day to day operations.

He doesn't understand the screw job that BK did with getting Wallace.

BK better do something magical this offseason cuz if we have to suffer more year with him at the helm but without a superstar, get ready to thrown into years of tumultuous mediocrity.

[Shameer1016]

Here's what Proky had to say about BK and Avery today. This was taken from Bondy's transcript (http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/nets/2 ... -own-words):

Jobs of Avery Johnson and Billy King? I think Billy and Avery, they are doing great job. We have a common view, not only on the day-to-day routine but on our strategic goal. Just to have a championship team we need to be global view, strategic view and you need to have the common knowledge of how to reach this. So from my point of view, we have a great team spirit and we need a little bit of luck, because the team is very professional, and I hope next season we’ll be much, much better than the previous two.

Unfortunately, I read this as no matter what happens, neither will be removed from their posts this offseason, even if D-Will leaves.

I know Proky wouldn't come out and say he's going to fire BK for not retaining D-Will, but Proky is simply the manager. From Day 1, he's said that he manages from the top down and will let others run the day to day operations.

He doesn't understand the screw job that BK did with getting Wallace.

BK better do something magical this offseason cuz if we have to suffer more year with him at the helm but without a superstar, get ready to thrown into years of tumultuous mediocrity.

[NyCeEvO]

Here's what Proky had to say about BK and Avery today. This was taken from Bondy's transcript (http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/nets/2 ... -own-words):

Jobs of Avery Johnson and Billy King? I think Billy and Avery, they are doing great job. We have a common view, not only on the day-to-day routine but on our strategic goal. Just to have a championship team we need to be global view, strategic view and you need to have the common knowledge of how to reach this. So from my point of view, we have a great team spirit and we need a little bit of luck, because the team is very professional, and I hope next season we’ll be much, much better than the previous two.

Unfortunately, I read this as no matter what happens, neither will be removed from their posts this offseason, even if D-Will leaves.

I know Proky wouldn't come out and say he's going to fire BK for not retaining D-Will, but Proky is simply the manager. From Day 1, he's said that he manages from the top down and will let others run the day to day operations.

He doesn't understand the screw job that BK did with getting Wallace.

BK better do something magical this offseason cuz if we have to suffer more year with him at the helm but without a superstar, get ready to thrown into years of tumultuous mediocrity.

More like....

[JoseRizal]

^^ Those posts doesn't encourage a lot of confidence... Oh well, another regular day of a Nets fan.