Magic at Wiz Game Thread

[JonathanJoseph]

JJ

I don't think your positions are whacked most the time. I also understand the part you are talking about where Wall forced two shoots in the forth, but I think you are overreacting on this one. KS did have a great game. Actually, Crawford turned it on in the forth and that made a huge difference as well. J Singleton and Martin also had an effect on the win. But Wall did play a great game against CHA and the game against ORL was very good. Not amazingly great but very good none the less. He pushed the ball. He made some great passes. He drove pretty well. He had a few coast to coast moves that were under control. He played winning PG the last two games and we won both games.

Being objectively critical is fine, but give some credit were credit is due.

Mediocre was probably a bad choice of words, but average is about right.

Wall did drive pretty well and did make some great passes. Unfortunately, that doesn't separate him from half the starting PGs in the NBA. Sometimes, just dumping the ball into your unstoppable center is a better choice than driving or making great passes, and often I see that Wall does not know the difference. Like at the end of the 1st quarter when Wall got an AND-1 on the fast break when the smarter play was passing to a wide open Vesely for a sure dunk. Wall got 3 points and a highlight, but it probably wasn't the best play. When you throw in 4 turnovers and bad shot selection in crunch time I come up with an average game. Not "very good".

Am I being to hard on Wall for criticizing what is, on balance, an average game? Maybe. But when you are the face of a franchise with a $25M shoe contract I guess that comes with the territory for me. I'd argue that most posters are equally willing to overlook Wall's flaws as I may be willing to focus on them.

[jivelikenice]

JJ

LOL. Picking one play where he kept it on the break rather than making the pass? Ok, if you insist.

Did he play well v Detroit? I'm really curious what your take is on that game considering he aggressively looked to score as well.

You also may have mentioned this earlier in other threads so sorry if I missed it, but what type of pg do you prefer? If you could pick a a list of 5 pgs to build a team around, who would it be?

[dangermouse]

Am I being to hard on Wall for criticizing what is, on balance, an average game? Maybe. But when you are the face of a franchise with a $25M shoe contract I guess that comes with the territory for me. I'd argue that most posters are equally willing to overlook Wall's flaws as I may be willing to focus on them.

Its not that we don't see his flaws, or overlook them, its just that we realise he is a 2nd year point guard who wasnt a finished product when he was selected as a rookie. And this 2nd year has a huge asterisk plastered on it due to the lockout and there being basically no training camp or proper off-season.

You just remind me of the guy standing at the bar talking with the guys, with the curly red hair full of dandruff, horrible acne scars and he's wearing trackpants and flip flops. A trio of 7/10's enter the bar and he says "nope, too fat, her teeth are crooked and the last one's shoes don't even match her dress. Would NOT bang."

[JonathanJoseph]

JJ

LOL. Picking one play where he kept it on the break rather than making the pass? Ok, if you insist.

Did he play well v Detroit? I'm really curious what your take is on that game considering he aggressively looked to score as well.

You also may have mentioned this earlier in other threads so sorry if I missed it, but what type of pg do you prefer? If you could pick a a list of 5 pgs to build a team around, who would it be?

I did not pick one play. I mentioned a few plays and 4 turnovers. The problem is that coaches will tell you that bad shots are like turnovers and Wall already has too many turnovers. When you have 4 turnovers and then some bad shots, you are talking about 6-8 wasted possessions every game. When Wall is taking 15-20 shots, he's wasting 8-12 possessions per game and that's how you end up with a lot of losses.

There is no "right type" of PG. What I can say is that what is required in a PG, basketball IQ and the ability to make teammates better, are what Wall seems to lack. Guys like Rondo, Nash, Parker and CP3 probably can't even dunk. That stuff doesn't matter.

To make a comparison, Wall should be playing like Rondo but he wants to play like Westbrook.

[JonathanJoseph]

Am I being to hard on Wall for criticizing what is, on balance, an average game? Maybe. But when you are the face of a franchise with a $25M shoe contract I guess that comes with the territory for me. I'd argue that most posters are equally willing to overlook Wall's flaws as I may be willing to focus on them.

Its not that we don't see his flaws, or overlook them, its just that we realise he is a 2nd year point guard who wasnt a finished product when he was selected as a rookie. And this 2nd year has a huge asterisk plastered on it due to the lockout and there being basically no training camp or proper off-season.

You just remind me of the guy standing at the bar talking with the guys, with the curly red hair full of dandruff, horrible acne scars and he's wearing trackpants and flip flops. A trio of 7/10's enter the bar and he says "nope, too fat, her teeth are crooked and the last one's shoes don't even match her dress. Would NOT bang."

How did you know I have curly red hair and acne?

The 2nd year thing is a cop out. I didn't say I expected him to be a finished product. I expect him not to hurt the team with his play and that's not too much to ask from a 2nd year PG.

The bad shot with 3 minutes left says it all. Orlando didn't capitalize, but those are the kinds of plays that lose games and Wall makes them all the time. You just don't notice because there are oohs and ahhs from the dunks and the speed.

[montestewart]

I think Wall had a decent game, warts and all, but there were warts, and my least favorite were the long bombs. If the clock's running out and he can't find someone or a lane to dash into, OK, someone's got to shoot, but (at least for now) that's not his shot. I can kind of understand the desire to try the longer shots when defenders back off, because it would be great if he could start making them a a higher rate, but not early in the clock in close games late in the game.

[jivelikenice]

To make a comparison, Wall should be playing like Rondo but he wants to play like Westbrook.

Westbrook averages 19.4 fg attempts per game to Wall's 13.6 attempts. That's 42% higher than John. I don't know how you can reasonably argue that he's trying to play like Westbrook. That's a substantial difference in shot attempts.

[jivelikenice]

I think Wall had a decent game, warts and all, but there were warts, and my least favorite were the long bombs. If the clock's running out and he can't find someone or a lane to dash into, OK, someone's got to shoot, but (at least for now) that's not his shot. I can kind of understand the desire to try the longer shots when defenders back off, because it would be great if he could start making them a a higher rate, but not early in the clock in close games late in the game.

How many did he take early in the clock? I remember one in the 4th q.

[jivelikenice]

Am I being to hard on Wall for criticizing what is, on balance, an average game? Maybe. But when you are the face of a franchise with a $25M shoe contract I guess that comes with the territory for me. I'd argue that most posters are equally willing to overlook Wall's flaws as I may be willing to focus on them.

Its not that we don't see his flaws, or overlook them, its just that we realise he is a 2nd year point guard who wasnt a finished product when he was selected as a rookie. And this 2nd year has a huge asterisk plastered on it due to the lockout and there being basically no training camp or proper off-season.

You just remind me of the guy standing at the bar talking with the guys, with the curly red hair full of dandruff, horrible acne scars and he's wearing trackpants and flip flops. A trio of 7/10's enter the bar and he says "nope, too fat, her teeth are crooked and the last one's shoes don't even match her dress. Would NOT bang."

How did you know I have curly red hair and acne?

The 2nd year thing is a cop out. I didn't say I expected him to be a finished product. I expect him not to hurt the team with his play and that's not too much to ask from a 2nd year PG.

The bad shot with 3 minutes left says it all. Orlando didn't capitalize, but those are the kinds of plays that lose games and Wall makes them all the time. You just don't notice because there are oohs and ahhs from the dunks and the speed.

One bad shot attempt says it all?

You never answered me on the Detroit game. he looked to score and facilitate. Was there anything wrong with that performance?

We can agree to disagree. I just think your assertion that he's a high volume shooter who looks to shoot first is an inaccurate description that is not supported by the facts. Watch any pg or player day in and day out and you'll see some bad shots and wasted possessions. If you're picking on one bad shot John took then there's no point in discussing further. You've made your mind up on 21 yr old 2nd year point guard. Just please don't pretend that you hope he succeeds because you rarely acknowledge when he does play well & ignore good performances. Even in solid games you then obsess about 1-2 mistakes when any pg will do that if you watch closely enough.

[montestewart]

I think Wall had a decent game, warts and all, but there were warts, and my least favorite were the long bombs. If the clock's running out and he can't find someone or a lane to dash into, OK, someone's got to shoot, but (at least for now) that's not his shot. I can kind of understand the desire to try the longer shots when defenders back off, because it would be great if he could start making them a a higher rate, but not early in the clock in close games late in the game.

How many did he take early in the clock? I remember one in the 4th q.

There was a long jumper in the 1st half with 8-10 seconds on the clock, but it's the one in the 4th, early in the clock, late in a close game (well, 7 point game, but the missed shot was followed by a Magic score, and then a 5 point game) that I was thinking of most. I think it's a problem that can easily fix itself with a combination of discretion and (even a little) better shooting. But when it happens, I yell NOOOOOO!

[jivelikenice]

I'll give you the 4th q jumper. I'm not going to call it a bad shot every time John shoots the ball with more than 5 seconds left on the clock though. He struggled with his shot early in the season, shot well for 20 games, and is struggling again. We need him to get back how he was shooting at the midpoint of the season and that's not going to happen if he's afraid to shot. Should he limit the perimeter shots he takes to ones where he doesn't have to fadeaway? Sure....But I still want him to take mid-range J's when they're available.

Right now his problem is inconsistent mechanics. The good thing is he knows what he's doing wrong. On the radio last night he specifically said he needs to stop fading back on his J and not plateau on his jump & then shoot. That's the clear mechanical difference that's hurting his shot now. The good thing again is that he knows this...the bad thing is he's thinking about it. But if he gets a chance to step into a midrange J, I want him to take it...Just like I want Vesely to shoot it when he's open as well.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I believe John Wall is going to figure it out.

I have not liked him at all, but I believe he will find his mechanics on that shot. He needs an offseason and a whole lot of practice. Once he gets a consistent release point and follow through he will be virtually unstoppable. Right now he's almost as bad as can be shooting jumpers, but I will say he takes the shot. He has the balls to take the shot. What he needs are mechanics, probably a little bit of leg strength and a tad of upper body strength too; along with the confidence that will come once the shot starts dropping. I think it will happen for him because he is a hard worker.

I don't like Wall's decision making for a PG. Regardless, when he can hit a three the guy will start owning his position.

[doclinkin]

Am I being to hard on Wall for criticizing what is, on balance, an average game? Maybe. But when you are the face of a franchise with a $25M shoe contract I guess that comes with the territory for me. I'd argue that most posters are equally willing to overlook Wall's flaws as I may be willing to focus on them.

Its not that we don't see his flaws, or overlook them, its just that we realise he is a 2nd year point guard who wasnt a finished product when he was selected as a rookie. And this 2nd year has a huge asterisk plastered on it due to the lockout and there being basically no training camp or proper off-season.

You just remind me of the guy standing at the bar talking with the guys, with the curly red hair full of dandruff, horrible acne scars and he's wearing trackpants and flip flops. A trio of 7/10's enter the bar and he says "nope, too fat, her teeth are crooked and the last one's shoes don't even match her dress. Would NOT bang."

dm 's my new favorite poster. Funny, dude.

[montestewart]

Yep, that was a really vivid image dangermouse.