Jonas Valanciunas 11/12 Season Thread III

[Los Manos]

What would you know of positioning if you haven't watched the game? You're talking in hypotheticals. If he had a history of fouling out of games or not showing up in big games maybe it might be something to be concerned about, but picking up 5 ticky-tacks in one big game isn't worth worrying about. People are complaining about the refereeing because JV's performance is an anomaly, especially this season. He wasn't playing overly aggressive or getting caught out of position.

You see, I actually know the game of basketball and I don't need to watch a game to know that when a big man is in foul trouble like that it's because he's not getting the proper leverage he needs in the post position wise to play strong defense and alter shots without making himself susceptible to continuous foul calls. When you put yourself in a good stance and remain cautious with your reaches with the ball you limit the opportunity for the refs to blow the whistle on questionable calls.

You're not even getting the point. A lot of you are being too sensitive about this and I should't even be continuing to discuss a small issue i brought up. I'm not saying Jonas is a bad player, I'm saying he had a bad game. When you foul out in 8 min, you had a bad game regardless of anything else he did on the court that day. That's all I'm saying, I don't see why there's so much opposition to that observation. Better positioning and discipline next time around in such a situation when things arent going his way will do the trick. The kid will be fine, i know it's not the end of the world.

It's just very difficult to discuss JV's foul issues today with someone who didn't watch the game. You're making big assumptions about how he picked up the fouls and are completely wrong - he didn't pick them all up playing post defense! There were some iffy calls from the refs but it's also right to say that JV didn't adjust and he should have. Those who watched the game agree on that. His fouls were picked up in ticky tack ways for example not being careful with his hands when being switched guarding a perimeter player and putting his hand in after his opponent had already gathered a rebound. In the context of a highly physical game though, they were a stretch for the refs to call a foul on.

[kingz32]

You see, I actually know the game of basketball and I don't need to watch a game to know that when a big man is in foul trouble like that it's because he's not getting the proper leverage he needs in the post position wise to play strong defense and alter shots without making himself susceptible to continuous foul calls. When you put yourself in a good stance and remain cautious with your reaches with the ball you limit the opportunity for the refs to blow the whistle on questionable calls.

You're not even getting the point. A lot of you are being too sensitive about this and I should't even be continuing to discuss a small issue i brought up. I'm not saying Jonas is a bad player, I'm saying he had a bad game. When you foul out in 8 min, you had a bad game regardless of anything else he did on the court that day. That's all I'm saying, I don't see why there's so much opposition to that observation. Better positioning and discipline next time around in such a situation when things arent going his way will do the trick. The kid will be fine, i know it's not the end of the world.

It's just very difficult to discuss JV's foul issues today with someone who didn't watch the game. You're making big assumptions about how he picked up the fouls and are completely wrong - he didn't pick them all up playing post defense! There were some iffy calls from the refs but it's also right to say that JV didn't adjust and he should have. Those who watched the game agree on that. His fouls were picked up in ticky tack ways for example not being careful with his hands when being switched guarding a perimeter player and putting his hand in after his opponent had already gathered a rebound.

Okay that's fair, but the foul scenarios you've just described when you break them down come down to being careful with your reach and putting yourself in a position that gives you leverage over a player when fighting for the ball to avoid bad calls by the ref. But like I said, I'm not picking on him.

[dagger]

It goes further. European officials generally allow more incidental contact than you often see in the NBA. So expecting a player to adjust to atypical officiating in a major game has to be qualified - after two first half fouls in a five foul game, you are in foul trouble. We see some whacky stuff called in the NBA, but by and large a certain amount of contact is allowed, a certain amount of jostling is allowed within the rules.

And in playoff games, even more physical contact tends to be allowed, not less.

In the NBA, with six fouls, you are also likely to still play in all four quarters. I'll let an ex-NBA starter have his say here.

Sarunas Marciulionis about the @Eurocup semifinal between Lietuvos Rytas and Valencia: "I saw some bias in the refereeing."

In the NBA you see stupid calls, but most nights it evens out. In a 40-minute sudden death game, an officiating crew can wreck a game plan with a couple of early calls.

I know JV has quite an adjustment ahead of him which is why I don't expect him to arrive and play like a star. Every single 20 year old rookie, which is what he will be in the fall, has an adjustment to the schedule, the travel, back to backs, officiating, the speed of the game, the veterans' tricks, the expert flopping - that means you, Luis Scola, Manu Ginobili. I don't think Anthony Davis is going to have it that easy as a rookie either. But the development with Jonas may be a bit shorter than some because of the level of competition he's facing.

[Darknemo2000]

Who are you to tell me that my contribution is pointless? E-Police? I'm not asking you to read and respond to my comments. This is the internet where people just might have different stances than you on topics. deal with it.

Well its fine. But you also have to understand that with commets like I havent watched the game and then starts criticizing based on the stats alone wont help you to be taken seriously. You are like a kid in clowns clothes and mask trying to discuss about Heidegerr's philosophy. You just don't look reliable enough to be taken seriously.

[Raptor_Claw]

it's an automatic foul, been playing amateur ball and getting this called everytime, seen pro players getting called for this everytime. If you don't get the offensive board, go back on defence, do not try to slap the ball from the rebounder

No its not automatic. Not in international basketball at least thats why those calls look weird. For Rytas unluck is that their most important player got on the receiving end and wasnt able to get into the game.

I would risk if I were djikic and start Jonas again though. Right now Rytas evened up the game flow but they are nowhere close on breaking the tide in their favour.

That's most usually a foul call in Euroleague/Eurocup. I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that they do not normally call that a foul, because they do.

[Raptor_Claw]

idk, but according to the media Rytas was the underdog in this game
i wish i could watched the game, but for what i've read, Big V needs to make some adjustments to not be foul prone.. referring may be atrocious, but 5 fouls in few min ?? btw, was he mad?? did he get techs??

Valencia has much more depth than Rytas does. Overall, it's just a much better team. Anyone that really expected Rytas to win that game were not really being realistic. Valencia if they were in Euroleague, might have a shot at making the Top 16. Rytas, if they were in Euroleague might have a shot at winning something like 3 games.

And Jonas, for his age, was not going to be a league MVP or lead a team of that level to a title. Not at the Eurocup level. Granted, it's not close to as good as the Euroleague level. But it is still a serious professional league (one of the best on the planet), and it is way above the level of the NCAA tournament.

The expectations on this forum for Jonas are just overboard. Realistically, he and his team have had about the best season they could have so far. He's still just a 19 year old kid. He's a huge talent, but for example, if he was playing in Euroleague, he would not be considered anything special at all. He would just be another player for the most part.

I think he's going to be a really good player, and I really do like him, but the expectations and the belief of what level he is currently at in Europe, are way overboard in this forum. Either that or the forum here severely underrates the level of competition he is playing against.

Kentucky would have no chance at beating these teams at the Eurocup Finals. It does not seem like most people here understand the level he is playing at. No 19 year old kid is going to lead a team like Rytas to a league championship at a level like the Eurocup. It's just totally unrealistic to even really think that.

[raptor21_85]

you know I couldnt watch the game, I found a summary:

De nada le ha servido a los lituanos tener al prometedor Jonas Valanciunas (19 años, 2.10 m), número 5 del último draft de la NBA.

El futuro jugador de los Toronto Raptors apenas ha estado en pista 8 minutos y 27 segundos en los que ha logrado 4 puntos y ha cometido 5 faltas.

El brasileño Vitor Faverani (10 puntos y 15 de valoración) se lo ha comido en la pintura y ha liderado un grupo de 5 jugadores valencianista con dobles dígitos de anotación: Newley y Caner-Medley 12; Claver, De Colo y el propio Faverani con 10.

According to this, Vitor Faverani was too much for Big V, and thats the main reason why Jonas fouled out.
Does Vitor really deserve props?? or homer article?

http://www.tubasket.com/noticia/valenci ... 73131/6303

[Raptor_Claw]

there can never be an excuse for fouling out in 8 minutes of play. You said that Valencia took advantage of it. Of course, they're supposed to! That's good strategy by their coaching when the opposing teams best player leaves the game. It has a drastic impact. If Jonas was disciplined in the game and was effective offensively and maintained better positioning he would have made a positive impact for his team.

I find it laughable that some of you are attempting to justify 5 fouls in 8 minutes in a critical game. If this was any other prospect on any other team people would be talking about how bad of a decision maker he is. I'm not calling for Jonas to be unfairly looked at because of one bad game but I'm saying that we need to be honest with ourselves when we see stuff like this happen and not just act like nothing happened because we want to numb ourselves of such performances.

But the fact is, it seemed like a regular game, he played like he always do. He actually did nothing worth bashing.
I actually missed the first and the last of his fouls, but I can tell you for sure, that 2-4 fouls were all controversial. He committed those fouls while playing regular defense. He had no opportunities to sag off or be over extra careful anyway, because his team was way behind all the time, he needed to play that D. Unfortunately, refs called everything.

The refs called the game more tight than a normal Eurocup game. I have noticed over the years that at the Euroleague Final Four or the Eurocup Finals, that the refs call the game tighter than they do during the season.

For example, during the Euroleague playoffs it is extremely physical and they let the players really play hard and they hardly call fouls. It's really physical. However, in the Euroleague Final Four, they tend to call it more like an NBA playoff game, where they call it tighter and allow less physicality. There is still physical play allowed, but more the level of an NBA playoff game, which is less than the normal in European games usually.

I am not sure exactly why they do this, but I have always though that they do it because the TV audience is so huge and the games are being broadcast in so many countries. They were saying before the game, that even this Eurocup semifinal was being aired on TV in something like 47 countries. And of course, the Euroleague final gets aired in a ridiculous amount of countries and with a huge audience.

So I think they call the games tighter, more like how they call it in the NBA playoffs, or more like how you see them call it in FIBA World Cup or the Olympics. They allow less physical contact, I believe to appease the large international audience, because they are not used to typical European basketball, which tends to be a lot more physical. It's usually much more physical than the Olympics are for example, and most NBA fans are surprised at how physical the Olympics are.

So yeah, they call the games tighter at the Eurocup Finals than during the season, but that's been something that they have always done. Again, I am not sure why, but I think it is due to the TV audience, they want it to appear to look more like an NBA game. I think most Americans would be stunned if they saw a typical Euroleague playoff game on ESPN on TV. Stunned by the level of physical play that is allowed. It would seem like wrestling almost to most Americans.

I could be wrong, but I think this is why they call the games tighter when they have the big international audience, which they equate to a lot of people in different countries that think of the NBA or the Olympics as the model of how much physical play is allowed.

[ATLTimekeeper]

you know I couldnt watch the game, I found a summary:

De nada le ha servido a los lituanos tener al prometedor Jonas Valanciunas (19 años, 2.10 m), número 5 del último draft de la NBA.

El futuro jugador de los Toronto Raptors apenas ha estado en pista 8 minutos y 27 segundos en los que ha logrado 4 puntos y ha cometido 5 faltas.

El brasileño Vitor Faverani (10 puntos y 15 de valoración) se lo ha comido en la pintura y ha liderado un grupo de 5 jugadores valencianista con dobles dígitos de anotación: Newley y Caner-Medley 12; Claver, De Colo y el propio Faverani con 10.

According to this, Vitor Faverani was too much for Big V, and thats the main reason why Jonas fouled out.
Leave your comments

http://www.tubasket.com/noticia/valenci ... 73131/6303

Faverani schooled him on a couple of post-ups, but I think he only drew one foul from Valanciunas far away from the basket. It's a gross exaggeration to say that's why he fouled out.

[UcanUwill]

First one is against Faverani. Its like he pushed him with his lower body. No upper body contact there.

Second is also against Faverani. Over the back foul. Kinda softy, but that was a foul.

Third one is against De Colo i believe. Aggressive cylinder violation, those nosy arms...

Forth foul holding Faverani again. You can clearly see why they called it, holding, pushing motion, but you have to be picky to call that in todays basketball. Not to mention that pass was going out of bounds anyway. Jonas was just careless, his effort was completely unnecessary. Ok, lets say its on Jonas again.

The last one is against Lishchuk. Jonas with Ryan Hollins type of defense. I need to mention that Ryan Hollins never get called doing that. Lishchuk sure made it look like it was a foul, it was a contact for sure, not sure thats foul worthy tho.

Bottom line. All the calls were reasonable, but also picky.




Recorded all his fouls from Lrytas. But the quality is terrifying, sorry for that and all, its just for you Raptor21, no one else dares to watch it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kuSF4thD84&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

[ATLTimekeeper]

^Thanks. I was wrong. I forgot about that first shove. For some reason I thought he was called for a bump out on the perimeter on a guard. Either way, those fouls could have literally been on any player. It's not like there was something specific to Faverani's skill, strength or smarts that was causing Jonas fits. It really just felt like he's used to playing a certain style and the refs busted him on it every time.

[Darknemo2000]

That's most usually a foul call in Euroleague/Eurocup. I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that they do not normally call that a foul, because they do.

They dont. Watch the games again. They allow those pushes go unless its really bumping the player but when it is as slight as that - they let it go.

But when it come to final four they do start calling every foul. On the other hand I still noticed spainisgh team still getting away with a couple of bumps that Rytas was called for. If they are calling it tight they should call it tight on both sides equally. Thats one of the reason why Marculionis after the game said that the refs looked biased to him.

[redred9]

I watched part of the game until my feed went funny and from what I saw there was nothing to really worry about- they were ticky tack fouls. It happens to young players sometimes especially young bigs with long arms lol.

It didn't even have anything to do with post defence, strength or any of that.. Just experience. Not that big a deal imo- just unlucky and over enthusiastic at a bad time.

I agree with people saying Valencia had way more overall talent than Rytas though. I don't even follow Euro basketball much and even I knew that from all the names on the Valencia team.

[raptor21_85]

thank you sir.. i knew that article was kind of homer.. To say "Faverani se comio vivo a Jonas en la pintura", means he abused the $hit out of him....

btw,some of those calls were really ridiculous.. Jonas mustve been given the star treatment by the refs..

[kingz32]

^Thanks. I was wrong. I forgot about that first shove. For some reason I thought he was called for a bump out on the perimeter on a guard. Either way, those fouls could have literally been on any player. It's not like there was something specific to Faverani's skill, strength or smarts that was causing Jonas fits. It really just felt like he's used to playing a certain style and the refs busted him on it every time.

and having now watched the clips i couldn't agree more.

[Raptor_Claw]

^Thanks. I was wrong. I forgot about that first shove. For some reason I thought he was called for a bump out on the perimeter on a guard. Either way, those fouls could have literally been on any player. It's not like there was something specific to Faverani's skill, strength or smarts that was causing Jonas fits. It really just felt like he's used to playing a certain style and the refs busted him on it every time.

Valanciunas struggles against strong centers. That is his weakness. He's a 19 year old kid playing against grown men, so they are stronger than he is. Eurocup isn't like the LKL level. And Faverani is a good player. You guys have the his hang up that he is playing against a bunch of scrubs just because it is not the NBA. Those are very good players he is playing against.

Guys like Lischouk and Faverani are better than a lot of NBA centers.

[UcanUwill]

Guys like Lischouk and Faverani are better than a lot of NBA centers.

Here we go again...

No, they are not...

Such a defensive rebounder as Faverani would be a biggest headcase to any NBA fan. He would be totally exposed, what he could bring to the NBA team? And Lischouk is Aaron Gray type stiff.

[begemot]

Why on earth does lithuanian people always cry about the ref everytime their teams lose? With the NT its just the same.There were admittedly some absurd calls against Rytas (and against everyone) but your team lost because Rytas was outhustled, outclassed, and given a lesson on how to play defense by a middleclass ACB team.

Allowing offensive rebounds, leaving people open and not being able to inbound the freaking ball. Getting outruned. Outhustled. Outcoached. You have the reasons right there.

If you think a 19 year old kid is going to stop an euroleague level team of reaching their goals, well, you are wrong. Rytas lost deservedly.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Why on earth does lithuanian people always cry about the ref everytime their teams lose? With the NT its just the same.There were admittedly some absurd calls against Rytas (and against everyone) but your team lost because Rytas was outhustled, outclassed, and given a lesson on how to play defense by a middleclass ACB team.

Allowing offensive rebounds, leaving people open and not being able to inbound the freaking ball. Getting outruned. Outhustled. Outcoached. You have the reasons right there.

If you think a 19 year old kid is going to stop an euroleague level team of reaching their goals, well, you are wrong. Rytas lost deservedly.

I think when a team's best player and one of the top players in the entire league gets 5 touch fouls in 8 minutes there's a reason to complain. I'm not Lithuanian, or a Rytas fan so I have no feelings at all about the loss. I thought the refereeing was fair in that they called a lot of ticky tack stuff against both teams, but unfortunately they used no discretion given the importance of the game.

[raptor21_85]

so now Rytas will play for the 3rd place.. whats next for them after this?