The Amazingly Sucky March and April John Wall thread

[Knighthonor]

It's kind of funny, because I believe if Davis comes here, he is going to suck on John Wall level.

The Wizards are in another 10 year slump.

Wizards need some magic, cause his Wand and Spell book is broken.

He need to learn to naturally cast spells with his bare hands.

If you know what I mean by this metaphor

Trolling your own board is a quick way to wear out your welcome, rook.

well take is as trolling if you see it that way.

but to explain the metaphor,

the Wizard == John Wall
the Broken tools:
Broken Wand == Singleton
Broken Spell Book == Crawford

naturally cast spells with his bare hands== learn to shoot the ball on his own.

[Silvie Lysandra]

The funny thing is that comparing him to Rose in year 2

Wall:

- Averages more assists per 36 passing to worse teammates
- Averages nearly a rebound more
- 2x the number of steals (not saying he's a better defender than Rose was because of that, but he can create turnovers and be disruptive on D, and they have similar DRTG as wlel)
- Fairly close in TS% (.532 versus .503 despite a large differences in FG%) because...
- Despite Rose shooting 4 more times per game, and having a 2.3% higher usage rate, Wall gets to the line 2 times more a game than Rose at the same age and experience.

I think Wall will be fine - people were ripping Rose in his second year too.

The idea that Wall needs to be traded is ridiculous, and is the kind of thing that leads to trading Webber for Mitch and the like.

Also, a note on Gil - the revisionist history on him is crazy. Gilbert was, at one point, a top 3 scorer in the NBA, in a league with prime Kobe, LeBron, prime/healthy Wade, etc. Nobody he's played with has been as good before or after as they have while playing with him, save for a 30 or so game stretch from Caron Butler and a 4 game explosion against the Cavs. The demonization of score-first PGs makes it so people see Gilbert as a "chucker whose game doesn't translate to winning" - being a super-efficient volume scorer on one of the best offensive teams in basketball doesn't translate to winning? As for his defense, sure it sucked. But if he was a good defender, would it have mattered? He played with Caron and Antwan, and his teams had little depth, and had a **** coach.

Put him on a quality defensive team, one that not only covers his mistakes but has a culture of playing quality team defense where he can't get away with not playing it as much, like say, the 2005 Pistons or Spurs, and he's a consistent title contender.

Imagine a team of:

McDyess
Duncan
Bowen
Manu
Gil

in 2005

or:

Wallace
Wallace
Prince
Rip
Arenas (or hell, Billups/Rip).

They certainly aren't any worse, and imo are a lot better.

Imagine the 07 Pistons against the Cavs when LeBron was going crazy. What the Pistons needed that night was someone who could put the team on his back and match LeBron dagger for dagger. Very, very few players matched LeBron dagger for dagger the way Gilbert Arenas did. If they had Arenas in any of those ECFs they lost, they win at least one, maybe 2. Once their defense declined from historic to very good, their team oriented balanced approach simply wasn't good enough to beat the megastars of the world - the Wades and LeBrons and such.

[Shanghai Kid]

Hands, whether Gil was a franchise player or not, the fact is he is responsible for our only playoff series win in the modern era. If he doesn't hit the game winner in Game 5 of chicago series, I'm not feeling too good about that series.

[montestewart]

That's not a metaphor, that's an indecipherable cryptogram. No fair.

[jivelikenice]

Yeah, but you would do a lot of things you'd later regret, CCJ.

If I drafted Beal and Gilchrist, and signed any of Nash, Billups, Lin, Hinrich, B. Davis, Ridnour, etc. I don't think I'd miss John Wall. There are veteran FA guards in this draft who are more effective than John Wall. If I get a talented player in place of Wall, I wouldn't miss a beat. He is not a franchise PG and maybe one of the young guys are marquee talents. On top of that, I could draft (instead of Beal) either Damian Lillard or Kendall Marshall.

I believe Lillard has a good chance to be a better NBA player than John Wall, but I would count on Gilchrist or Beal to at least be as good as Wall in 3 years. So, add two of them and get a solid, veteran, FA PG. If I draft a PG in round two I could choose Marquis Teague, Tyshawn Taylor, Scott Machado, etc

In a scenario of drafting two top lottery picks; if I added Beal, Gilchrist, and also Machado in this draft, I could do without Wall. I doubt I would regret it. Last season I said Irving and a draft pick. I would definitely do that now. Who's to say there isn't an even better PG in this draft?

CCJ, you keep talking about Irving & a draft pick. It was never on the table so I don't get why you keep beating that drum. You also have been changing your mind game to game a lot this season. One day its trade Wall for Gasol, the next its keep Wall, the next its trade Wall for Augustin & a pick, the next its Wall will be a star once he adds a 3, and then its trade Wall again. I'd love to see you gm a team in real life only to see a record # of moves based on your rollercoaster decision making!

Reality is he's a part of the team at minimum one more year. No reason to rush to make a move while his value id down and before hiring the new coach/gm and letting them evaluate and develop John in a normal offseason. I don't know why we keep going back & forth on Wall trade scenarios when its not a reality and isn't even a smart move now, regardless of if you're a Wall fan or not.

[jivelikenice]

Hands, whether Gil was a franchise player or not, the fact is he is responsible for our only playoff series win in the modern era. If he doesn't hit the game winner in Game 5 of chicago series, I'm not feeling too good about that series.

Gil was a great player but that team was never a true contender. A team who's #1 option is a shoot first point cannot win a title IMO. Its too much pressure and a toll on that type of player. We saw it firsthand last year when Rose wore down v the Heat. Wall is a different type of player. Let's hope he's the type that can take a talented team further in the long run....

[Jay81]

i picked up this nugget from Twitter

deron Williams on john Wall

DWill on Wash's John Wall struggles: "I don’t want to put anybody down but he’s not playing with the smartest guys in the world."

[jivelikenice]

i picked up this nugget from Twitter

deron Williams on john Wall

DWill on Wash's John Wall struggles: "I don’t want to put anybody down but he’s not playing with the smartest guys in the world."

Deron Williams doesn't know anything about basketball. Wall has played with Yi, Al Thronton, Dray, McGee, Nick Young, Chris Singleton, Vesely, & Jordan Crawford. He talks too fast, runs too fast, and is dumb as rocks. Let's trade him for Calderon and 2014 1st rounder so we can tank for a couple more years. That's how you build folks!

[Silvie Lysandra]

Hands, whether Gil was a franchise player or not, the fact is he is responsible for our only playoff series win in the modern era. If he doesn't hit the game winner in Game 5 of chicago series, I'm not feeling too good about that series.

Gil was a great player but that team was never a true contender. A team who's #1 option is a shoot first point cannot win a title IMO. Its too much pressure and a toll on that type of player. We saw it firsthand last year when Rose wore down v the Heat. Wall is a different type of player. Let's hope he's the type that can take a talented team further in the long run....

What is the difference between Arenas and Wade other than the fact that Wade is listed as a SG at 6'5 210 and Arenas is listed as a PG at 6'4 215?

Similar efficiency
Similar volume scoring
Similar usage/ball dominance (actually Wade was MORE ball dominant during his title run)
Different playstyles but similar TS% and EFG%.

Wade is a better defender obviously, but that's not the point of the contention.

The reason why Arenas didn't go deep in playoffs regularly was because he had bad coaching and a pretty mediocre team. Arenas was a true first option superstar, but his team was never that great.

Imo Arenas then > Rose now and it's not even close.

[jivelikenice]

I never made the argument that Rose was better than Arenas, although Rose's ability to attack the hoop and not shot selection gives him a slight advantage in my opinion. I don't think either is or was capable of leading their team to a title as a #1 option.

Wade may be listed as only an inch taller than Gil, but he's a much more physical player and also was a better creator. Their matchups against each other weren't even competitive. But even he needed Shaq and now Lebron to take some pressure off of him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

All this bad coaching stuff has me asking who played with Gil? Caron and Antawn were about as defensively challenged as a pair of starting forwards needed to be. Those two with Arenas made the playoffs four straight years under EJ. Haywood played defense, but he was terrible on offense and at the free throw line. Ruffin and Songaila were two of the better subs--and you want to talk about bad coaching? I thought EJ did a good job until the playoffs.

Every season they lost to Lebron in the playoffs, except for the year they lost to Wade. The guys around Lebron were big. Ilgauskas, Varajeo, Powe were all good rebounders. The Cavs always had great spot up shooters. Guys like Boobie Gibson, Mo Williams, and Delonte West made the open looks that Lebron got them. Those guys around Lebron should have beat the Wizards and they did.

They also had a lot of help from the refs in the playoffs. Lebron walked a country mile and rarely got called for crab dribbling.

Gilbert Arenas was a bad defensive player but his offensive efficiency was so great that he led the Wizards to a lot of wins. They won games with a Big Three who got to the free throw line a lot. Butler just kept getting injured. Then Gil got injured. What more could have EJ done with that group?

In retrospect, I think Eddie Jordan made this team competitive far better than Flip Saunders. He did as well as any coach they've had recently. Jordan made the playoffs without Gilbert.

I hated his terrible defenses and the fact that EJ seemed to hate Brendan Haywood, back when Brendan was a stud defensively. That said, I think Eddie did a good job. He got fired at 1-11 the season after making the playoffs, and with Gilbert and IIRC Brendan Haywood injured. Eddie was playing the guys EG drafted. Javale was STARTING when EJ was fired, four years ago.

Eddie wasn't that bad overall.

[Dat2U]

Eddie Jordan is coaching the freshman team at Archbishop Carroll. Let's keep it real here. Maybe your overrating his coaching ability just a tad. He benefited from having a top 10 player and a year where Jamison, Butler & Haywood all had career seasons and Daniels managed to hold up all year long with solid PG play in place of Arenas.

Flip was barely tolerable and a bad fit. But any coach would be a bad fit under the group we've had recently.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Eddie Jordan is coaching the freshman team at Archbishop Carroll. Let's keep it real here. Maybe your overrating his coaching ability just a tad. He benefited from having a top 10 player and a year where Jamison, Butler & Haywood all had career seasons and Daniels managed to hold up all year long with solid PG play in place of Arenas.

Flip was barely tolerable and a bad fit. But any coach would be a bad fit under the group we've had recently.

Eddie's system but really just the minutes they played is the reason they had career years. Jamison's rebounding rate was the same. Caron got a lot more good looks because of Gil. Gil did make EJ's record better, but the fact remains that Daniels, Stevenson, and Mason only had Jamison and Butler. Nobody else was any good on the team and they made the playoffs.

Flip would have won 30-35 games max with that bunch. In fact, Flip had the same guys when he was out acquiring the likes of Oberto, Miller, and Foye and Flip never won more than 26 games.

I think Eddie stayed coach for 6-7 years because he was decent overall. Much better than Flip as far as I'm concerned. Randy Wittman more than proves my points about Saunders.

[Nivek]

A lot of coaches would have looked just fine with Arenas to work with for the 2 and almost a full third season until Gerald Wallace wrecked his knee. From 04-05 until the knee injury, Arenas was among the league's most efficient offensive weapons. Among players who used at least 25% of their team's possessions in those seasons, Arenas ranked 5th in offensive rating behind Dirk, Amare, Ginobili and Ray Allen.

During that time, he edged Kobe, KG, and Lebron in efficiency (among others). Dude could play.

[nate33]

During that time, he edged Kobe, KG, and Lebron in efficiency (among others). Dude could play offense.

Fixed.

[Nivek]

nate: In my tracking of the Wizards defense, Arenas actually wasn't as horrific a defender as folks tend to say these days. Methinks there's some Internet exaggeration. He was definitely below average defensively, but the real problem defender was Jamison. With good defensive coaching, Arenas would have been acceptable defensively. With the kind of defensive coaching they got when Eddie was around -- he was below average, as was everyone else not named Haywood.

[jivelikenice]

A lot of coaches would have looked just fine with Arenas to work with for the 2 and almost a full third season until Gerald Wallace wrecked his knee. From 04-05 until the knee injury, Arenas was among the league's most efficient offensive weapons. Among players who used at least 25% of their team's possessions in those seasons, Arenas ranked 5th in offensive rating behind Dirk, Amare, Ginobili and Ray Allen.

During that time, he edged Kobe, KG, and Lebron in efficiency (among others). Dude could play.

Nobody is doubting Gil could play. I just think that he is overrated by Wizards fans as he was really the only thing that we've had to gloat about in D.C. for some time now. I loved Gil mainly because he was willing to take on the NBA's "Golden Childs" and they couldn't stop him. He could score on anyone at any time. He also played a game that was going to bring excitement, but was never going to translate into very much postseason success. His last year before the knee injury he was shooting 41.8% from the field and was at 35% from the 3 pt line. He didn't really elevate the play of those around him and the persona he created was interfering with his play on the court leading to his injury. If you want to believe he was a championship caliber "A" Star, go right ahead but that wasn't reality in my opinion.

This all goes back to my original premise...Shoot first pgs as your lead player will lead you to more immediate success but they're capped long-term. For all Gill accomplished here, he maxed out at 45 wins. In his first 4 seasons here before the knee injury, the team won 25, 25, 42, & 41 games. In 06-07 he probably would have won more, but before the injury the team was slumping and Gil was benched for that game v. Charlotte.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Eddie Jordan is coaching the freshman team at Archbishop Carroll. Let's keep it real here. Maybe your overrating his coaching ability just a tad. He benefited from having a top 10 player and a year where Jamison, Butler & Haywood all had career seasons and Daniels managed to hold up all year long with solid PG play in place of Arenas.

Flip was barely tolerable and a bad fit. But any coach would be a bad fit under the group we've had recently.

Dat, I remember a stretch of games EJ coached where he went 23-8 before the Wizards were hit by injuries.

I remember Larry Hughes being narrowly edged out for an all star spot, by comeback player Grant Hill.

I remember the Wizards in the playoffs before the Kwame for Butler trade. Jared Jeffries started.

The reason Jamison and Butler had career years IMO was that Antonio Daniels ran EJs offense darn near to perfection. Eddie Jordan is the guy Jason Kidd and others credited with New Jersey's playoff success the year they went to the finals. A lot of guys have had career years playing for Eddie Jordan.

I don't care what you say about EJ, and you know I have nothing but respect for you Dat, but I will always regard Eddie Jordan as a very fine role model and a good offensive coach. Yep, he's the worst defensive coach I have ever seen. Still, Eddie had a knack for coaching underdog teams up. Eddie was GREAT with players. I think mentoring young players even at a JV level in HS is a good place for Eddie to be. He's going to influence them positively and they will remember him all their lives. Jordan has a lot of common sense. Eddie worked the media with "nothing" answers. Dude was cool under fire, unlike Flip and Doug. I like Wittman. I love it when he melts down because the man is brutally honest. I respect Randy Wittman a lot. Randy lets Jordan Crawford chuck the ball, but it is not like he has many alternatives. I like him and Eddie.

I think Eddie Jordan gets a raw deal in this forum.

[jivelikenice]

Agree with you CCJ....Eddie takes a lot of heat but he did a good job of managing people and getting the team to play in a manner that can make them successful. Before the injury, Eddie tried to put more of an emphasis on defense and Arenas resisted. I can't find the article but I recall Arenas not being happy because we were going away from what worked. EJ did the best he can do under difficult circumstances.

[Nivek]

A lot of coaches would have looked just fine with Arenas to work with for the 2 and almost a full third season until Gerald Wallace wrecked his knee. From 04-05 until the knee injury, Arenas was among the league's most efficient offensive weapons. Among players who used at least 25% of their team's possessions in those seasons, Arenas ranked 5th in offensive rating behind Dirk, Amare, Ginobili and Ray Allen.

During that time, he edged Kobe, KG, and Lebron in efficiency (among others). Dude could play.

Nobody is doubting Gil could play. I just think that he is overrated by Wizards fans as he was really the only thing that we've had to gloat about in D.C. for some time now. I loved Gil mainly because he was willing to take on the NBA's "Golden Childs" and they couldn't stop him. He could score on anyone at any time. He also played a game that was going to bring excitement, but was never going to translate into very much postseason success. His last year before the knee injury he was shooting 41.8% from the field and was at 35% from the 3 pt line. He didn't really elevate the play of those around him and the persona he created was interfering with his play on the court leading to his injury. If you want to believe he was a championship caliber "A" Star, go right ahead but that wasn't reality in my opinion.

This all goes back to my original premise...Shoot first pgs as your lead player will lead you to more immediate success but they're capped long-term. For all Gill accomplished here, he maxed out at 45 wins. In his first 4 seasons here before the knee injury, the team won 25, 25, 42, & 41 games. In 06-07 he probably would have won more, but before the injury the team was slumping and Gil was benched for that game v. Charlotte.

The problems with the Wizards at that time were not on the offensive end. All of the so-called analysis of their problems that start with offense are simply wrong. They were one of the most efficient offensive teams in the league, and that was in large part because of Arenas and his remarkable ability to use tons of possessions efficiently.

As to the issue of whether or not he made his teammates better -- talk to Larry Hughes, Deshawn Stevenson, Jamison, etc. Talk to Jared Jeffries, who would probably have been out of the league years ago if he hadn't landed with a guy like Arenas who could use so many possessions efficiently that Jeffries' offensive suckitude could be hidden.

That season Arenas got injured, his shooting percentages were down a bit, but he made up for it by getting to the FT line a TON (and making his FTs) and cutting his turnover rate. That season he had an offensive rating of 115 points produced per 100 possessions -- which ranked 31st in the NBA among ALL players with at least 500 minutes, regardless of usage level. Among players with a usage level of 25+ (Gil's was 31.4), he tied for 4th (with Kobe, Pau Gasol and Michael Redd) behind Dirk, Manu and Amare. He was more efficient offensively that season than Ray Allen, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, KG, Paul Pierce, Yao, Carmelo, Joe Johnson, Iverson, etc.

As for whether "shoot first PGs" can be leaders of a championship-level team, we'll see. Miami did it with Wade (and Shaq, of course). The Pistons did it with Isiah (and a bunch of really good players). The Bulls might do it with Rose. I don't think it matters a whole lot who's shooting the ball as long as the team scores efficiently. I think the analysis on this issue is confounded by lots of other factors. And the reality that the team with the best big men is usually the one that wins championships.

The bottom line is that the Wizards definitely had issues that prevented them from making the leap to a title contender while Arenas was in town. None of those issues was Arenas' offensive game, however. He was a HUGE reason they were as good as they were.