ST: Toronto Blue Jays vs Tampa Bay Rays (April 17 - 19)

[illy]

thank you, sometimes it feels like im taking to kids.

Well, if you're going to make that statement, then you should at least spell everything right...

fast typer my friend, your knowledge of baseball is doodoo and you should be shown the front door

[illy]

smh. vernon was on the decline and had a big contract which is the reason why we traded him. our bullpen last year sucked and we needed some proven vets (dont tell me rauch or francisco) were. the hitting and pitching are different planes. we needed stability in the bullpen.

Again, statistically speaking Vernon was on the decline even before he signed that contract.



I understand why we traded Vernon, but you can't argue he isn't a veteran.

Frank Francisco was a proven vet, his career FIP was 3.54 over 338 IP. He appeared in 335 games and no matter how you spin it, was very successful.

Casey is the better pitcher. Cordero is the definition of declining even by your standards (lost a lot of FB velo) and his career numbers aren't even better than Franciscos.

can you show me some bar graphs and pie charts too? foh

[Randle McMurphy]

well i think the money paid to cordero has to be put to use. kinda political. hes not awful. but he hasnt been lights out. (neither has casey) so it makes sense for his use in the 8th.

Making decisions based on how much somebody is paid is a terrible way to manage a baseball team.

[illy]

well i think the money paid to cordero has to be put to use. kinda political. hes not awful. but he hasnt been lights out. (neither has casey) so it makes sense for his use in the 8th.

Making decisions based on how much somebody is paid is a terrible way to manage a baseball team.

i agree, but his hasnt been awful or lights out like i said before. but again you take experience. add to the fact that he was paid 4.5 million dollars for a 1 year deal you play him. if he was awful then obviously you wouldnt see farrell put him in the 8th.

expected better from you randle..

[flatjacket1]

can you show me some bar graphs and pie charts too? foh

Okay... I'd rather use reason and logic to win arguments than insults and sarcasm. It will likely get me further in life.

As you can see from that chart, players start declining much earlier than traditionalist think.

[Relentless88]

Don't feed the troll...

[illy]

can you show me some bar graphs and pie charts too? foh

Okay... I'd rather use reason and logic to win arguments than insults and sarcasm. It will likely get me further in life.

As you can see from that chart, players start declining much earlier than traditionalist think.

lol i dont care about history of decline of players. we are talking about the usage of coco in the 8th rather than jansen.

[illy]

Don't feed the troll...

dont feed the one that hates who they are!

[Randle McMurphy]

well i think the money paid to cordero has to be put to use. kinda political. hes not awful. but he hasnt been lights out. (neither has casey) so it makes sense for his use in the 8th.

Making decisions based on how much somebody is paid is a terrible way to manage a baseball team.

i agree, but his hasnt been awful or lights out like i said before. but again you take experience. add to the fact that he was paid 4.5 million dollars for a 1 year deal you play him. if he was awful then obviously you wouldnt see farrell put him in the 8th.

expected better from you randle..

Oliver is making $4M as well and has more "experience" than any pitcher on the roster. What is the difference (other than Oliver being a significantly better reliever and a much better matchup in the 8th)?

[flatjacket1]

lol i dont care about history of decline of players. we are talking about the usage of coco in the 8th rather than jansen.

Okay, well Cordero had something called an insanely high LOB% last season. The league average is 72%, his career average was 76.8%, and his last season was 82.3%. This means that he stranded more runners than he should of, and that hitters just didn't deliver against him. This is why his ERA was so low against him.

[illy]

let me put it more clear. more experience in CLOSING. yes he's not closing, but having a reliver who closed before pitching the 8th is great to have. thats like having your closer pitching 2 innings. plus oliver who is 41 has been used more against lefties so far (except the time where he was kept longer and blew the save, but that was on farrell)

[flatjacket1]

let me put it more clear. more experience in CLOSING. yes he's not closing, but having a reliver who closed before pitching the 8th is great to have. thats like having your closer pitching 2 innings. plus oliver who is 41 has been used more against lefties so far (except the time where he was kept longer and blew the save, but that was on farrell)

If you are arguing Cordero should close over Santos... I don't even know what to say to you.

I wish you the best of luck.

[youreachiteach]

I think that jannsen, although very efficient and generally trustworthy, is a very fringy pitcher. He really has no outpitch, which is why he was relegated to the pen in the first place after blowing through the minors much as Hutchison has.

He would go to 3-2 on half the batters and even if he succeeded in getting himself out of those jams, his pitch count would be astronomical by the fifth and he'd be tired and couldn't throw the ball any more inside or he'd hit the batter.

So, the Jays put him in the pen so he could conserve his energy and hump up on his fastball. It has been effective; as Jannsen is a pitcher who tries to frame strikes and stay on the outer third or crow hitters on the inside. The problem is, even with the increased velocity, jannsen doesn't have closer stuff, and never has. What he does have is a variety of pitches he can go to and often executed quite nicely.

When he is off, which happens from time to time, he leaves pitches up and can give up homers and doubles a bit too often. This is why Farrel is reluctant to use him in high leverage situations in the eighth and ninth where the best hitters are often mounting their best comeback, hitters who can lay off jannsen's borderline pitches and make him pay if he gets in trouble. To be fair to Casey, it's usually obvious early on whether he "has it" or not, but if that is going to be a semi-usual occurrence, why put him out there against elite hitting in the first place?

Is he better than Cordero? No. And the reason is his experience in dealing with higher caliber hitters over an extended period. As you've seen, he is more an alternate closer than Casey, who has to work so fine to get his outs.

I am very aware of casey's consistency, and I know that makes him a reliable option--but I wonder what his average would be later than the seventh vs. the top of the order vs. Cordero. That would probably solve this quesiton for me (if Jannsen has better numbers, fair enough).

[Randle McMurphy]

let me put it more clear. more experience in CLOSING. yes he's not closing, but having a reliver who closed before pitching the 8th is great to have. thats like having your closer pitching 2 innings. plus oliver who is 41 has been used more against lefties so far (except the time where he was kept longer and blew the save, but that was on farrell)

Kevin Gregg has more experience closing than Darren Oliver. I guess that would have made him the better option in the 8th, too, if he was on the roster.

[Michael Bradley]

Oliver is the best 8th inning option on the team, IMO. He is basically an older Scott Downs. However, I get the feeling AA promised Cordero the 8th inning role upon signing, and baseball is very much a game of respect as far as past accomplishments are concerned (whether justified or not) so Cordero will be in the 8th inning role until he sucks enough to justify pushing him down.

[illy]

let me put it more clear. more experience in CLOSING. yes he's not closing, but having a reliver who closed before pitching the 8th is great to have. thats like having your closer pitching 2 innings. plus oliver who is 41 has been used more against lefties so far (except the time where he was kept longer and blew the save, but that was on farrell)

If you are arguing Cordero should close over Santos... I don't even know what to say to you.

I wish you the best of luck.

read again and then rebuttal

[Randle McMurphy]

let me put it more clear. more experience in CLOSING. yes he's not closing, but having a reliver who closed before pitching the 8th is great to have. thats like having your closer pitching 2 innings. plus oliver who is 41 has been used more against lefties so far (except the time where he was kept longer and blew the save, but that was on farrell)

If you are arguing Cordero should close over Santos... I don't even know what to say to you.

I wish you the best of luck.

And yeah, taking his statements to their logical conclusion, he seems to be suggesting that guys with more closing experience are somehow better options late than guys with less (or no) closer experience. I guess that makes Cordero our best reliever!

[illy]

let me put it more clear. more experience in CLOSING. yes he's not closing, but having a reliver who closed before pitching the 8th is great to have. thats like having your closer pitching 2 innings. plus oliver who is 41 has been used more against lefties so far (except the time where he was kept longer and blew the save, but that was on farrell)

Kevin Gregg has more experience closing than Darren Oliver. I guess that would have made him the better option in the 8th, too, if he was on the roster.

read again and rebuttal i wasnt saying anything about oliver in the 8th! i said coco.

[Avp115]

thank you, sometimes it feels like im taking to kids.

Well, if you're going to make that statement, then you should at least spell everything right...

fast typer my friend, your knowledge of baseball is doodoo and you should be shown the front door

I understood your post just fine. You said that Cordero should be the 8th inning guy because we signed him to a $4.5 million contract, as it reflects poorly on the front office to not give him ample playing time. I am saying that we should not put games on the line just because we signed someone to a $4.5 million contract and we have the cheapest owners in baseball. Our owners our cheap, but AA is not going anywhere as long as we're winning games. If that means using Janssen more than Cordero, then so be it.

[Randle McMurphy]

Oliver is the best 8th inning option on the team, IMO. He is basically an older Scott Downs. However, I get the feeling AA promised Cordero the 8th inning role upon signing, and baseball is very much a game of respect as far as past accomplishments are concerned (whether justified or not) so Cordero will be in the 8th inning role until he sucks enough to justify pushing him down.

This is probably the case. The same thing seems to have happened with Rauch last year. It's probably going to take a few Cordero blown saves before they're able to go back on that promise (and they're certainly coming if Farrell keeps using him like he did today).