Statistical Shocker: The Dramatic Rise of the Second Unit

Wannabe MEP · Post #1 » by **Wannabe MEP** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:04 pm

I can't believe the numbers on this. I couldn't believe it when I saw it happen on the court: the bench saved the starters' butts more than once recently (as if it were 2010 again

).

Telfair-Redd-Markieff-Lopez + Brown = trash
Telfair-Redd-Markieff-Lopez + Childress = excellent

WTF?!?

There's certainly some sample size limitations on this, but they've both played more than 100 minutes, and the second crew is 40.2 points per 100 possessions better.

From-Ashes article: Statistical Shocker: The Dramatic Rise of the Second Unit

SunsRback4Good · Post #2 » by **SunsRback4Good** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:11 pm

I'm shocked as well. If it wasn't for our bench stepping up, we'd be 25-36 at this point.

LBCsun49 · Post #3 » by **LBCsun49** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:17 pm

i like childress and always have liked him!

Let Hill Rest until playoffs!

YFZblu · Post #4 » by **YFZblu** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:19 pm

I think it's been evident from day 1 that Childress can play. Glad it's starting to result in W's for us.

Post #5 » by **Qwigglez** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:19 pm

I think we all liked Childress it's just his contract we don't like...

RunDogGun · Post #6 » by **RunDogGun** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:29 pm

YFZblu wrote:I think it's been evident from day 1 that Childress can play. Glad it's starting to result in W's for us.

he might not light up the stat line, but he finds the guys that are hot, and gets them the ball, and he does all the dirt work that many others don't/won't. Also I think his leadership and positive attitude has rubbed off on others.

He has one of the top two point percentage on the team, and also top assist to turnover ratio on the team. I think we could use him more in these last few games to see if another team could see him as useful, even with his salary. :dontknow:

YFZblu · Post #7 » by **YFZblu** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:55 pm

Qwigglez wrote:I think we all liked Childress it's just his contract we don't like...

I wouldn't even mind his contract if he would get some meaningful PT. It's paying a guy to sit on the bench and rot is what baffles me.

Cutter · Post #8 » by **Cutter** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:19 pm

Qwigglez wrote:I think we all liked Childress it's just his contract we don't like...

perfectly said....

Wannabe MEP · Post #9 » by **Wannabe MEP** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:01 am

Ok, but let's be honest. He's generally been very ineffective with the Suns. His most-used units from last year:

The success of this unit is a surprise. It's either something to do with fit or continuity (or both). I've thought he had potential, but again, we hadn't really seen it play out.

YouTube · Post #10 » by **Kerrsed** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:10 am

Los Soles wrote:I can't believe the numbers on this. I couldn't believe it when I saw it happen on the court: the bench saved the starters' butts more than once recently (as if it were 2010 again ).

Telfair-Redd-Markieff-Lopez + Brown = trash
Telfair-Redd-Markieff-Lopez + Childress = excellent

WTF?!?

There's certainly some sample size limitations on this, but they've both played more than 100 minutes, and the second crew is 40.2 points per 100 possessions better.

From-Ashes article: Statistical Shocker: The Dramatic Rise of the Second Unit

I think it may be because if Childress is in the game, he only shoots like 4 shots (if that), and when Brown is in, he's taking (and missing) more.

doa · Post #11 » by **doa** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:20 pm

Los Soles wrote:Ok, but let's be honest. He's generally been very ineffective with the Suns. His most-used units from last year:

The success of this unit is a surprise. It's either something to do with fit or continuity (or both). I've thought he had potential, but again, we hadn't really seen it play out.

I don't think you can place the blame solely on Childress for the ineffectiveness of those units. I wouldn't expect any unit that included Vince Carter's corpse AND Hakeem Warrick to be successful. Not to mention Turkoglu.

Childress can play, there's no question about that.

Post #12 » by **bwgood77** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:14 am

RunDogGun wrote:
YFZblu wrote:I think it's been evident from day 1 that Childress can play. Glad it's starting to result in W's for us.

he might not light up the stat line, but he finds the guys that are hot, and gets them the ball, and he does all the dirt work that many others don't/won't. Also I think his leadership and positive attitude has rubbed off on others.

He has one of the top two point percentage on the team, and also top assist to turnover ratio on the team. I think we could use him more in these last few games to see if another team could see him as useful, even with his salary.

And that is what he has ALWAYS been. If you go back and look at the top fg%s in the entire league before he left Atlanta, he was always near the top....as a small forward...he just doesn't like taking bad shots. And he is the perfect glue guy.

Los Soles - if you are reading this, since you look at numbers quite a bit, how do you think Morris would compare in the starting unit to Frye? Just thinking about potential lineup maneuvers for next year.

Wannabe MEP · Post #13 » by **Wannabe MEP** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:42 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Los Soles - if you are reading this, since you look at numbers quite a bit, how do you think Morris would compare in the starting unit to Frye? Just thinking about potential lineup maneuvers for next year.

I actually had a Morris-Gortat combo in mind before we even drafted him, because that opens the door for Frye to return to the bench as the five, and he could still get starter minutes by coming in earlier as the 4.

Morris has some rookie inconsistencies going on, but I think consistently getting minutes alongside Nash and Gortat would help that. And just accumulating playing time in general. I think Morris would be a slight downgrade from Frye, but the overall upgrade of having Frye at the 5 with the second unit would be massive, like when we switched Lopez and Frye in 2010. Morris has been very successful with a couple of starter combos in limited opportunities, such as:

Nash-Brown-Dudley-Morris-Gortat: +27.23 (53.30 minutes)

NashtyNas · Post #14 » by **NashtyNas** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:15 pm

Qwigglez wrote:I think we all liked Childress it's just his contract we don't like...

Everyone and their mother was claiming Childress sucked, regressed, could not play, and should be traded for a 2nd or amnestied. Just about everyone was wrong.

I've been saying this for a while. Childress just needs CONSISTENT minutes and a defined role; the guy is not old, he hasn't had injuries, he's not done physically. SO what suggests that he cannot play? NOTHING.

When he's been on the court, yes, he makes some boneheaded plays (ill-adviced shots, most often) but his defense is still above average, he's got the versatility to guard 1-3 and even small 4s, and he can run the court with great speed. If we don't re-sign one of Brown/Redd (which I think is what will happen), look for Childress to take a big step forward and maybe take Hill's starting role if he sticks around.

RunDogGun · Post #15 » by **RunDogGun** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:01 pm

Well not everyone has said Chilldress sucks. There have been a few that have been calling for more minutes for him. I know I have almost this whole year. I have seen Grumpy yelling about Gentry not playing him.

I think if we had inserted him into the starting group, while moving Hill to the second unit to work with Price, we would have the right hustle guys in both units sparking the whole team to play better. But that was before Hill went down, and moved an ineffective Brown to the starting unit, where he became more effective as long as he allows Nash to run the offense. As soon as he goes off script, he hurts us.

However, Chilldress rarely goes off script, which forces him to be standing around the three point line, and take a shot that isn't his best. He has Gentry to thank for that. :lol:

As soon as he does what he thinks is right, he gets easy open shots, and slashes to the hoop.

One of the games where Redd was shooting great, you could see Chilldress always find Redd, and make sure he was the one shooting. That is just smart basketball, find the guy that is shooting the best and get them the ball.

Post #16 » by **bwgood77** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Los Soles wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Los Soles - if you are reading this, since you look at numbers quite a bit, how do you think Morris would compare in the starting unit to Frye? Just thinking about potential lineup maneuvers for next year.

I actually had a Morris-Gortat combo in mind before we even drafted him, because that opens the door for Frye to return to the bench as the five, and he could still get starter minutes by coming in earlier as the 4.

Morris has some rookie inconsistencies going on, but I think consistently getting minutes alongside Nash and Gortat would help that. And just accumulating playing time in general. I think Morris would be a slight downgrade from Frye, but the overall upgrade of having Frye at the 5 with the second unit would be massive, like when we switched Lopez and Frye in 2010. Morris has been very successful with a couple of starter combos in limited opportunities, such as:

Nash-Brown-Dudley-Morris-Gortat: +27.23 (53.30 minutes)

Yeah, I think Morris might be a slight downgrade from Frye right now, but I think Frye has likely peaked, whereas Morris probably still has quite a bit of upside. Morris could take a big step forward next year whereas Frye will likely be the same player he's been the last couple of years.