Top 50 player seasons, PLEASE READ pg 4 if you want to vote

[ardee]

Not sure any other way to go about it then. Let's say it is Kareem 1971 vs Russell 1965 and Kareem wins that one and then the next one is Kareem 1972 vs Russell 1965 and Kareem wins that? Not sure what is the correct approach to take in this one.

I think the best thing to do is maybe have a vote of what season is the best of said player. So for me for instance of all the MJ's which MJ season and player was the best? Compare himself to 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996 and then pick one. If 1991 wins then that is the MJ you use.
Also I think it is more valuable to compare players who won the title to players that won the title (MJ 1991, Shaq 2000, Russell 1965, Kareem 1971, Wilt 1967, Magic 1987) and players that didn't win the title to players that didn't win the title. (Lebron 2009, Kareem 1977, Tmac 2003, Kobe 2006, Bird 1985, etc)

Here is an example of the player season ESPN used when picking the all time great teams

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/fe ... lineup/chi

1991 MJ was used

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/fe ... lineup/bos


1965 Russell and 1986 Bird


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/fe ... lineup/lal

1987 Magic, 2000 Shaq


Also think the best way is to make it the years said player won the title that way we eliminate the saying this player won the title and this player didn't debates.

That IS the correct approach, to me. 1971 and 1972 Kareem WERE great, there's no reason not to give them the recognition they deserve.

[penbeast0]

The top MVP seasons is a nice twist on it; it keeps the debate down to a manageable number of seasons to look at while keeping most of the top seasons and weeding out most of the pretenders. And the Nash and Iverson fans can still make their cases.

[ardee]

The top MVP seasons is a nice twist on it; it keeps the debate down to a manageable number of seasons to look at while keeping most of the top seasons and weeding out most of the pretenders. And the Nash and Iverson fans can still make their cases.

That's the greatest MVP seasons ever, not the greatest seasons ever.

Years like Shaq in 2001 or Wade in 2009 or Walton in 77 would lose out, over years like 2011 Rose or 2001 Iverson (!!!!!!!!).

[penbeast0]

Agreed that it isn't the original idea of the OP but the OP is trying out variations to see what he thinks will work the best and it's a good one that avoids some of the pitfalls of the original idea.

[Laimbeer]

With all due, a lot of folks (myself included) lost interest in the Top 100 Players before it ended. My guess is interest in this fades faster and you'd do well to limit it to 50.

Might also want to make a policy for Mikan/Cousy types.

And as they say in the Shark Tank, "I'm out".

[sp6r=underrated]

With all due, a lot of folks (myself included) lost interest in the Top 100 Players before it ended. My guess is interest in this fades faster and you'd do well to limit it to 50.

This.

[Chris435]

i'd actually just limit it to the top 25 seasons. You would need dedicated posters to finish a top 50/top 100 project. There seems to be a trend where after the first 10-15 players, the interest in the project dwindles quickly.

Maybe you could reach out and get a few of the mods involved in this if this turns out to be a top 50/top 100 project.

[ardee]

Let's keep it to 50 and see if the interest remains when we reach there.

Anyway, does anyone feel like starting voting now or should we wait till the Playoffs begin?

[ardee]

Ok, I really don't want this project to die.

It came to my mind that yeah, any number of seasons per player doesn't make sense.

So, here's a set of rules I thought up:

1. Keep it to four seasons per player.
2. Fifty seasons total.
3. No nomination, we merely vote for them in consecutive fashion.
4. If there is no majority, e.g. '91 Jordan has 10 of 30 votes with the remaining twenty split between '67 Wilt, '64 Russell and '76 Kareem, then the two with the most votes are revoted for by every voter who cast one of the original 30 votes.

We could start within the next two weeks, just in time to catch the playoffs.

If the mods are fine with it, we could start making a voters list now, and people could post their preliminary top 50.

[Doctor MJ]

Hey gang, just wanted to get it out there where I'm at with this:

If this project gets going, I will participate. I am interested.

However, if what you're looking for is a mod to help run the thing, I can't even think about that until summer gets near.

As far as my take on the ground rules:
1. I don't like the 4 seasons thing. It's arbitrary, which makes the project feel less meaningful. I think the other possibilities mentioned (1 season per player, no limit seasons per player, MVP seasons) would be better. Were I to vote, I'd probably go with 1 season per player and make it a greatest peaks thing.
2. I like the 50 votes thing. It was pretty brutal getting through the last 20 or so votes last project.

No strong feelings about 3 or 4. They sound find.

[ardee]

Hey gang, just wanted to get it out there where I'm at with this:

If this project gets going, I will participate. I am interested.

However, if what you're looking for is a mod to help run the thing, I can't even think about that until summer gets near.

As far as my take on the ground rules:
1. I don't like the 4 seasons thing. It's arbitrary, which makes the project feel less meaningful. I think the other possibilities mentioned (1 season per player, no limit seasons per player, MVP seasons) would be better. Were I to vote, I'd probably go with 1 season per player and make it a greatest peaks thing.
2. I like the 50 votes thing. It was pretty brutal getting through the last 20 or so votes last project.

No strong feelings about 3 or 4. They sound find.

All right, then how about we keep it to one season per player, and then for the players with a lot of great seasons, first determine among each player which one was the top season for him (i.e. Jordan 91, 96 or 90, etc.).

This was suggested earlier, I think it has some merit. Makes more sense rather than determining which was better, 65 Russell or 71 Kareem, then 64 Russell or 72 Kareem, then 61 Russell or 76 Kareem, etc.

So, what do you think?

[ElGee]

I love the idea of a top 50 peaks project (heck I did a blog post on it once). The projects here are great and highly informative. This was brought up last year and it makes sense given rpoy and toP 100 have been done. My quick take on this:

-probably not interested until the summer.
-voting method is important. (eg strongly consider runoff)
-strong moderation is needed. These projects are hard to run well...

I also have some preference for a semi-closed voting panel. The openness of the projects here is great, where suddenly a chicago76 or fatal pops up, but I've felt a number of results were skewed between this and voting methodology. It's a small thing, but when the best part of the project is compiling information and debating the theory and effectiveness behind the play, it's strange if the results don't reflect the threads. The "homers" and drive-by voters have done that...

[sp6r=underrated]

I also have some preference for a semi-closed voting panel. The openness of the projects here is great, where suddenly a chicago76 or fatal pops up, but I've felt a number of results were skewed between this and voting methodology. It's a small thing, but when the best part of the project is compiling information and debating the theory and effectiveness behind the play, it's strange if the results don't reflect the threads. The "homers" and drive-by voters have done that...

I disagree. The point of these threads is to generate discussion that will hopefully lead to a broader understanding of careers and the game of basketball itself. While the homers and drive by homers can warp the vote in certain instances, the benefit of blocking these people is far outweighed by the harm of preventing outside voices from being heard.

Ultimately the project matters for the discussion more than the list. I've read and re-read the current top 100 and the 2008 top 100 (and remember the 07 top 100 that has sadly been lost to the archives). Most of the times when I'm reading the thread I don't even notice the votes.

[Doctor MJ]

All right, then how about we keep it to one season per player, and then for the players with a lot of great seasons, first determine among each player which one was the top season for him (i.e. Jordan 91, 96 or 90, etc.).

This was suggested earlier, I think it has some merit. Makes more sense rather than determining which was better, 65 Russell or 71 Kareem, then 64 Russell or 72 Kareem, then 61 Russell or 76 Kareem, etc.

So, what do you think?

I think it would be tough to have a different polling for every player in question.

What about if we have voters:

1. Give the player & season.
2. We tally votes by player only and determine the winner (with any necessary tiebreaks).
3. Then tally season votes for that player.

Result would look like: "Adam Morrison '12-13"

I've left out the possibility that there's a tie between seasons of a player. We could of course do a tiebreak thread for that, but it might be cool to actually list the seasons that tied.

Thoughts?

[Doctor MJ]

I also have some preference for a semi-closed voting panel.

I assume by that you mean that once we get going it's closed except for those the project leader lets in. Are you also advocating an approval process before the beginning of the project?

Is there more to it beyond those two points?

[ElGee]

I also have some preference for a semi-closed voting panel.

I assume by that you mean that once we get going it's closed except for those the project leader lets in. Are you also advocating an approval process before the beginning of the project?

Is there more to it beyond those two points?

This is a small issue to me, for some of the reasons that spr6 outlines. But on the heels of a 3rd project in 3 summers, I do admit some curiosity as to what the vote would look it if it, you know, actually reflected the opinion of the darn people who put time into the project.

I would be OK with either of what you suggested. If you're asking "well, on what basis would a project leader make that call?" I'd say based on reliable contributions and an attempt at objectivity in their posts. I don't think I'm stretching when I say it's fairly obvious who has positively contributed to past projects or even past threads and who is flimsy or agenda-driven. I'm sure that sounds grumpy or elitist but the motivation is quite the opposite -- it's way more fun when you are discussing this stuff for 2 months with people who aren't constantly injecting their ego or agenda. (And it's more fun to re-read later when you don't have to sift through BS.)

[tclg]

I think sumer time is the best time . That way we will have something to do when there is no NBA on tv

[ardee]

I think sumer time is the best time . That way we will have something to do when there is no NBA on tv

Don't talk about it, my friend. Just the other day it seemed like it was Christmas, and salvation had arrived. Can't stand the thought of four months of no basketball

[sp6r=underrated]

I would be OK with either of what you suggested.

Well out of "Doctor MJ" two suggestions, I think the only logical choice is having an approval process before the project begins. It makes little sense to me if you're concerned about homers/deeply confused voters to allow an open panel at the beginning. This is because the beginning is when the percentage of homers and clueless is at its highest.

[ardee]

Ok, well, the Playoffs are right around the corner. How about we get started with putting together the voters at the very least, and figuring out a voting process?

Here's what I think:

1. Top 50 seasons, no cap on seasons per player. Why? I was sifting through some material, and I came to realize that we really will not have more than three to maximum four seasons per player if we are going to make it a top 50. MJ has probably 88, 90, 91 and maybe 96 that you could consider as the GOAT season. Russell has a few cherry-picked years from 61-65. Kareem had 71, 72 and 77. Bird had 85-87. LeBron had 09-10. Wilt had 64 and 67. Kobe at 01, and maybe 06. When the voting actually begins, we will not really see 8-9 seasons coming up per player. The reason being is that every player has 2-3 peak season in which he offers something different, and then the rest are not AS good.

2. For voting, use the same process as the Real GM Top 100. Everyone submits their top 15 list, and the seasons with the most votes make up the initial pool of nominees. Then, we nominate a new season along with the actual vote in every thread. This will stop, say, a Wade homer from voting for 2009 as the 10th best season ever.

3. For the voting panel, let anyone participate in the original discussion to nominate the first 10 seasons. If the mods feel that there is someone who is bringing negative contributions, he can not be included in the final voting panel. I would say... Keep the panel to about 20. It's only 50 seasons, and I think 20 voters offer more than enough viewpoints.

So, what say you guys? Shall we commence the nominations process when the first round of the Playoffs start?