2012 NBA Draft - Part III

[The Consiglieri]

None, in my view. He'll go somewhere in that 15-25 zone in my view. We could definitely trade up for him and he should be on our radar.

[Nivek]

Except the part about SHelden Williams being a top 5 pick....

That didn't thrill me either.

So, I took a closer look. I evaluated him as a PF, but he's arguably more of a center because of his skill set. Even as a center, YODA thinks he's a top 5 pick in most years. He was extremely efficient with an above average usage rate. He was an excellent rebounder, and he generated a high number of steals and blocks. The only real POSSIBLE red flags that show up are a 2pt% below 60% (but it was still +58% his last 3 years in college) and high-ish turnovers. His length was an issue at either spot.

Ultimately this may relate back to something I theorized about earlier in the thread -- there are MANY guys with the physical capabilities to be good NBA players. Why one guy makes it where another doesn't a lot of times will come down to desire and a willingness to work. Amare, for example, doesn't have a single physical advantage over Kwame Brown. But, Amare wanted to be an All-Star so he worked. Kwame thought he'd "made it" when he reached the league.

I don't know if that's the case with Shelden. It's a possibility. It could also be that he didn't put in the work on his game. EVERYONE needs to improve when they make the leap from college to the pros. If he didn't put in the time on his own, he couldn't get better.

Back to length for a moment -- Shelden seems to have kind of an odd build. His no-shoes height is right at average for a PF and is below average for a center. His wingspan is longer than average for either position, but his standing reach (which is the key length measurement) is below average for either PF or C.

[Jay81]

Nivek,

Kwame had very bad/small hands though..is that something that Yoda detects?

[theboomking]

Nivek, I think that Stat's hands and coordination are a big part of what separate him from Brown. Hands and coordination are largely inherent athletic traits.

[Nivek]

Nivek,

Kwame had very bad/small hands though..is that something that Yoda detects?

I probably shouldn't have used a couple high schoolers as examples because YODA is for college (and hopefully international) players. That said, there are no measurements available of Kwame's hands. It was reported he had small hands. When I shook hands with him and talked to him, his hands never struck me as being particularly small for his size. I remember it being reported that he couldn't palm a basketball -- something I KNOW to be false because I asked him if he could and he responded by palming two balls at the same time (one in each hand).

Whether hand size matters or not -- who knows? Hand measurements have been published only for the past couple seasons, it looks like.

Bad hands in a college player will show up in the numbers. Maybe that was indicated in Shelden's turnover numbers. Although, his rebounding was excellent.

[Nivek]

Nivek, I think that Stat's hands and coordination are a big part of what separate him from Brown. Hands and coordination are largely inherent athletic traits.

Quality of hands, yeah maybe. Coordination? I don't think so. Hand size is genetic, nothing to be done there. The question is how much it matters. I took a look at their pre-draft measurements. One area where Amare had a significant advantage was speed/agility. He did the sprint and agility drills (combining the two times) about a half a second faster than Kwame. Their jumping was about the same, their reach was the same, Kwame did 5 more reps on the bench press.

That said, it would be extremely difficult to convince me Kwame lacked any physical tool necessary to be a top-flight NBA player. In terms of coordination, there was no issue there with Kwame. What he lacked was skill and a willingness to work hard enough to develop those skills. If Kwame had Amare's work ethic, he'd have been a perennial All-Star.

[Zonkerbl]

Kwame had bad hands. You would pass him the ball and he would fumble it.

If you are 6'11" you can palm a basketball. The question is, does having hands the size of Chris Webber's correlate to having "good hands"? Or does hand size have nothing to do with it?

[Ruzious]

And having bad hands also goes to confidence. In Haywood's first couple of years in the NBA, he'd fumble the ball almost every time he had it - and he was very unsure of himself. Gradually he got better, he got more confidence, and his hands "got better". Kwame's hands may have been slightly small, but that wasn't his problem. He was on his way to being a stud in the NBA. He had games where he outplayed Tim Duncan and Jermaine O'Neal (in his prime), and as Kev alluded to - his lack of hard work caught up to him. When he had that foot injury in his 3rd season and didn't work to rehab it and got out of shape, that was the beginning of the end for him as a top talent.

[7-Day Dray]

What's the chances of Quincy Miller falling out of first round to our second round pick? I think he and John Wall went to the same high school?

I doubt if he has declared he wouldn't have a promise

Well NBADraft.net has him projected in the 2nd round, but more likely a team gambles on his upside in the mid-to-late 1st. I'm actually not a big fan of his because his below-average athleticism. He had an ACL injury in HS, and that could be why he looked so slow, but will he ever recover? He's not someone I'd trade up for, but if he somehow fell to the 2nd round, I'd take the gamble. I actually think there's a slight possibility he does slip because I'm not sure he's a guy that will standout athletically in workouts.

Him and Wall were AAU teammates and are still close friends.

[pancakes3]

i never really bought the "small hands" argument. having big hands help, but having small hands don't hurt. so he can't palm a ball. that doesn't keep him from grabbing rebounds, playing defense, or even scoring. he just can't windmill tomahawk jam it. a layup is 2 points too.

[MF23]

If Miles Plumlee measures in at 6'11 I'm willing to bet he sticks in the NBA as a back up center. Every time I've watched him he tries and I wouldn't mind him being on the Wizards roster if he measures all right.

[fishercob]

i never really bought the "small hands" argument. having big hands help, but having small hands don't hurt. so he can't palm a ball. that doesn't keep him from grabbing rebounds, playing defense, or even scoring. he just can't windmill tomahawk jam it. a layup is 2 points too.

Why are we arguing about the true impact of hand size, when there is one -- and only one -- person capable of settling this once and for all? WizDynasty!

WizD, please let us know the following:

1. What is ideal hand size for all five positions on the floor?

2. Which is more important -- finger length or distance between thumb and pinkie when all digits are out stretched.

3. What on court maneuvers must dominant two-way players at each position be able to execute as a direct function of their hand size and stength?

4. What are some exercises and drills players can do to strengthen and enlarge their hands?
Please provide video if possible, as well as links to any products on the market that could help with this?

5. Who are ideal coaches (preferably HOF or former HOF players) who could work with our players to improve hand size and strength?

[montestewart]

Why are we arguing about the true impact of hand size, when there is one -- and only one -- person capable of settling this once and for all? WizDynasty!

Hands might have an opinion about that.

What does Mark Jackson say? Hand size, man size?

[WizarDynasty]

vNot being able to palm the ball for a center or a powerforward is usually devastating to that players offensive development in the post. Having small plus uncoordinated hands basically equals kwame brown.

Pg is not that bad. Shooting guard help alot to be able to easily palm the ball---aka michael jordan.
But a powerforward or Center who can't palm the ball and doesn't have a long established record of dominance in the post in college---will probably be a pretty poor offensive post player and not be able to grab rebounds in traffic.
So again, being a post player with small hands and not being a dominant offensive post player in college doesn't look good as far as him being a good post player.

Having small hands as a shooting guard really hurts you when you are trying to finish against contact because its very hard to perform aerodynamic moves clunching the ball with both hands, absorbing contact, and getting off an after contact shot. Very hard to move the ball in the air while clunching it with both hands. So players start pulling up for jumpers when they have small hands. Nick young prime example.

[fishercob]

Thanks WizD!

[Ruzious]

Nick was not the best ball cluncher.

[nate33]

Stop it guys. You're killing me!

[tontoz]

its very hard to perform aerodynamic moves clunching the ball with both hands, absorbing contact, and getting off an after contact shot. Very hard to move the ball in the air while clunching it with both hands.

What makes a move aerodynamic?

Clunching your ball with both hands is definitely bad form and could be potentially hazardous.

[dobrojim]

unless your a baseball player, in which case it's obligatory

[tontoz]

unless your a baseball player, in which case it's obligatory

They only use one hand though since they wear a glove. I think 2 handed clunching is a problem only in the NBA.