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Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended

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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#101 » by fishercob » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:02 pm

JonathanJoseph wrote:
fishercob wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote: Not replacing the medical staff has been disastrous.


How so?


Not diagnosing McGee's asthma? Allowing Blatche to be pathetically out of shape? Those are just the eggregious mistakes of the past 2 years. Arenas' knee rehab was a $100M+ screwup so that alone should be automatic termination.


McGee's asthma was diagnosed. Even if it was done so late, I don't see the disaster of which you speak. The biggest problem with McGee was between his ears and with his proverbial heart -- not the actual muscle function.

You cannot seriously lay Blatche's suckitude at the feet of the medical staff. How did the other members of the team manage to stay in shape but not Dray?

You weren't there for Gil's knee rehab. Neither was I. Nor Ted, etc. But Gilbert is -- Gilbert continues to be -- completely beside the point.

My point, obviously, is that our disastrous medical staff has been just fine since Ted took over. I'm claiming neither causality nor correlation, but there's no merit to your assertion that Ted's not overhauling the medical staff has done any harm.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#102 » by JonathanJoseph » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:38 pm

fishercob wrote:
McGee's asthma was diagnosed. Even if it was done so late, I don't see the disaster of which you speak. The biggest problem with McGee was between his ears and with his proverbial heart -- not the actual muscle function.

You cannot seriously lay Blatche's suckitude at the feet of the medical staff. How did the other members of the team manage to stay in shape but not Dray?

You weren't there for Gil's knee rehab. Neither was I. Nor Ted, etc. But Gilbert is -- Gilbert continues to be -- completely beside the point.

My point, obviously, is that our disastrous medical staff has been just fine since Ted took over. I'm claiming neither causality nor correlation, but there's no merit to your assertion that Ted's not overhauling the medical staff has done any harm.


Seems like that's a lot of passing the buck. If you have a $100M investment in a player, you damn well better be sure his rehab is going according to your plan. If you have a player with asthma, you better figure that out sooner than a few years after you draft him. And if you have a player that has trouble staying in shape, you damn well better put him on a strength and conditioning program.

These problems do not happen to the Suns. I don't know how you don't a disturbing trend for a professional sports franchise, in which the health of your athletes is hugely important.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#103 » by montestewart » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:40 pm

Ed Wood wrote:That and I wanna be overbearingly intellectual about everything and Ernie doesn't really strike me as a "man of science" type, but onwards and upwards.

There are Einsteins and there are Edisons, and then there's Mickey Rooney as Young Thomas Edison (1940). I think EG is about that level of scientist at least.

I like your posts on this pressing issue. They hit on some of my feelings (or lack thereof, since I'm feeling a little numb right now).
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#104 » by fishercob » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:41 pm

Sure, whatever JJ. All potentially valid. All completely besides the point. Just say you were on a roll and overstepped or misspoke when saying the med staff under Ted has been a big issue. It hasn't.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#105 » by DCZards » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:53 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Okay, Ernie's not engendering optimism or great cheers. A lot of people are understandably disappointed. Some, are really upset. I think they haven't been in on the long haul suffering to the point of seeing it for what it is. What Ernie has done this past couple years is something I haven't seen. THIS is a proper rebuild. Did the man deserve to keep his job and to get to do this

Sorry for the rant, but Ernie got that right. At least in the short run. I am willing to be wrong and admit it. The Wizards will be better. I am not thinking about mediocrity in a bad way, either. IF they go from bad to mediocre with a YOUNG core, the trajectory of the team is still liable to get better.

Let Ernie and Randy do their thing next season. We'll see. I'll be here, God willing.


Good post, ccj. I've edited for length but I pretty much agree from start to finish. I was on the fence on keeping EG as GM. On the one hand, the idea of new blood (and a fresh start) in the GM position appealed to me. But, on the other hand, Ernie is due some props for some of the moves he's made in the last couple of years. I think he got it right with Booker, Seraphin, Ves and the trade for Nene. And, if he gets smart about shot selection, picking up Jordan the Chucker basically for free will turn out to be a winning move.That's five players capable of being part of the Zards' core going forward.

Of course, drafting Johnny Ballgame with the first pick was a no-brainer. So that makes 6 core players. Not a bad start to a rebuild.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#106 » by Dat2U » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:12 pm

Someone mentioned Stockholm Syndrome a while back and I think it definitely applies here. Wizards fans just love being abused & tortured mentally as their getting mind and wallet f*cked by an owner that's more insterested in proving himself right than surrounding himself with the right people. And those here have shown to be strangely loyal to a GM that has a proven track record of FAILURE! It's like watching an abused woman on the Lifetime channel who continually makes excuses for the husband that constantly beats her.

This may be the "proper rebuild" and I'm sure Earnest Grunfeld is executing the well laid out plans of a thoughtful man. But to trust Ernie to make the right decision, to put right pieces in place to build a contender. To execute his boss' plan to completion with a high level of competency is a leap of faith I cannot make.

We may be well on our way to competitiveness and with reasoned consideration, a stretch of future playoff appearances is not out the question. But I'm hard pressed to believe that even being micromanaged, that Ernie is capable of putting together a team that's going to be marginally above average.

Bottom line, were going to waste Wall's most productive years here just like we wasted Gilbert's best years.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#107 » by Bickerstaff » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 pm

montestewart wrote:
Ed Wood wrote:That and I wanna be overbearingly intellectual about everything and Ernie doesn't really strike me as a "man of science" type, but onwards and upwards.

There are Einsteins and there are Edisons, and then there's Mickey Rooney as Young Thomas Edison (1940). I think EG is about that level of scientist at least.

I like your posts on this pressing issue. They hit on some of my feelings (or lack thereof, since I'm feeling a little numb right now).


I get where you guys are coming from, but do we have any indication that the Wizards aren't making strides on the scientific end of things? Also, is there any scientific data to prove that building teams around scientific data is especially effective? It seems like it should be effective, but it also seems like something we all take as a given, and maybe we shouldn't. Either way, I can't defend Grunfeld on this level because I know nothing about his scientific approach or the priority he puts on it over good ol' horse sense. Just because he came into the league before this stuff was invented doesn't in itself mean he's no good at it.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#108 » by montestewart » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:32 pm

^
I'd like a GM who not only hires the right brains but who is conversant with rather than disconnected intellectually from their input. That's not meant as a putdown of EG's brain, more that I want to feel he's actually engaged in the process of what the geeks are doing. Advanced stats and other measures are important, as are the eye test and other more traditional measures, along with understanding personalities and hierarchies, and vision in constructing teams.

I don't know enough about the process to favor any of these categories to the exclusion of the others, but I know enough to find great merit in all of them. The GM job is a big one. EG may be better than I perceive, but that gets to one of my recurring themes: if the team's direction is as good as they say, I think he and Leonsis ought to do a much better job of selling all of this.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#109 » by JonathanJoseph » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:35 am

fishercob wrote:Sure, whatever JJ. All potentially valid. All completely besides the point. Just say you were on a roll and overstepped or misspoke when saying the med staff under Ted has been a big issue. It hasn't.


I don't think so. You can easily make the case that the clock should be reset on Grunfeld when ownership changed and thus the strategy changed (from trying to turn a veteran team into a contender to outright tanking and stockpiling youth.)

However, the medical and strength and conditioning staff has a significant history of problems and EG is the one who makes the decision to keep or replace them. Blatche is out of shape now like Caron Butler was pre-Ted. Just because they haven't made any $100M mistakes since Ted took over doesn't mean that gets wiped from their record.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#110 » by JonathanJoseph » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:36 am

montestewart wrote:^
I'd like a GM who not only hires the right brains but who is conversant with rather than disconnected intellectually from their input. That's not meant as a putdown of EG's brain, more that I want to feel he's actually engaged in the process of what the geeks are doing. Advanced stats and other measures are important, as are the eye test and other more traditional measures, along with understanding personalities and hierarchies, and vision in constructing teams.

I don't know enough about the process to favor any of these categories to the exclusion of the others, but I know enough to find great merit in all of them. The GM job is a big one. EG may be better than I perceive, but that gets to one of my recurring themes: if the team's direction is as good as they say, I think he and Leonsis ought to do a much better job of selling all of this.


Good post.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#111 » by JonathanJoseph » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:37 am

FYI this has been one of the better threads in a long time around here. Quality takes abound. Thanks to everyone for contributing.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#112 » by doclinkin » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:48 am

JonathanJoseph wrote:FYI this has been one of the better threads in a long time around here. Quality takes abound. Thanks to everyone for contributing.



Oh I forgot to say you are teh suck, and also Gilbert is teh suck and John Wall is teh truth.. woo.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#113 » by Ed Wood » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:53 am

Yeah, thank you monte, that was more or less what I hoped to convey. I'm not sure that Ernie is a analytic Luddite so much as that's the not entirely objective impression I've arrived at by reverse engineering his maneuvers and the terminology he leans upon when explaining his thought process. As for whether or not reliance on analytics is necessarily the best approach I am instinctively inclined to assume that it is but it's the nature of the beast that if it isn't the self-evaluating and correcting component of that approach will eventually make it so. Nevertheless the sort of systematic experimental approach that would be necessary to fully answer a question like "is statistical analysis more effective than traditional visual scouting?" is what I'm in the tank for and what I think, but don't know, the front office is simply not intuitively comfortable with.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#114 » by doclinkin » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:19 am

Ernie is entering year two of Ted's three year plan. Here is the blueprint for building the team. This is the Caps version, I can;t seem to track down the (12 point?) Wizards version that mentioned drafting players who play defense. But this is the basic armature of it:

1. Ask yourself the big question: “Can this team—as constructed—ever win a championship?” …..if the answer is no, then plan to rebuild. Don’t fake it—really do it the right way. Use analytics and be brutally honest.

2. Once you make the decision to rebuild—be transparent. Articulate the plan and sell it loudly and proudly to all constituencies, the media, the organization, the fans, your partners, family and anyone who will listen.

3. Once you decide to rebuild—bring the house down to the foundation—be consistent with your plan—and with your asks—we always sought to get “a pick and a prospect” in all of our [deals]

4. Commit to building around the draft. Invest in scouting, development, and a system. Draft players that fit the system, not the best player. Draft the best player for the system.

5. Be patient with young players— throw them in the pool to see if they can swim. Believe in them. Show them loyalty. Re-sign the best young players to long term high priced deals.

6. Make sure the GM, coach, owner and business folks are on the EXACT same page as to deliverables, metrics of success, ultimate goal, process and measured outcomes.

7. No jerks allowed. Implement a no jerk policy. Draft and develop and keep high character people. Team chemistry is vital to success. Make sure the best and highest paid players are coachable, show respect to the system, want to be in the city, love to welcome new, young players to the team, have respect for the fan base, show joy in their occupation, get the system, believe in the coaches, have fun in practice, and want to be gym rats. Dump quickly distractions.

8. Add veterans to the team via shorter term deals as free agents.

9. Measure and improve. Have shared metrics—know what the progress is—and where it ranks on the timeline— be honest in all appraisals; don’t be afraid to trade young assets for other draft picks to build back end backlog— know the aging of contracts— protect “optionality” to make trades at deadlines or in off season; never get in cap jail. Having dry powder is very important to make needed moves.

10. Never settle—never rest—keep on improving.


So far it looks like Ernie and Ted have done a decent job of sticking to the plan. Standout points being: 1, 2, 3, 4* [with an asterix], 5, and 7.

Point 4 is missing one critical piece. And I suspect Ernie's success or failure hinges on that point. Ted inherited a team running an unsuccessful 'system'. Flip's set list was proven to fail in the playoffs. The question then is raised, what system complements this collection of players? This may be the genesis of the D'Antoni rumor: Wall plays fast, Mike D likes to play fast. However, the emergence of Seraphin and the arrival of Nene tip the scales towards our frontcourt.

This suggests that points 1, 9, and 10 may be invoked. In the metric they use to evaluate team trajectory, do we need to play an uptempo offensive system to maximize John Wall, or can we form a hybrid that also relies on tough frontcourt play. But clearly the team is able to re-evaluate and find what fits with the plan, or tweak the plan as it is clearly shown to need it. To whit:

Point 8 changed with Nene, in part because in the NBA you need success quicker since you're limited in your ability to sign young players to Ovechkin-length deals. And veterans at key positions actually help youngsters develop. First you win, then you get good. Veterans can teach dirty tricks. I suspect Seraphin learned that 'pull the chair' technique from Nene. I'd never seen him use it before the big Brazilian arrived.

The timing for the change was good: we sucked long enough to land a number of high picks. We were locked in to a top-of-lotto prospect in a purportedly deep year, and in landing that vet for two players who were not great fits on point 7 (distractions, resistant or immune to coaching). We had as much PT as we needed for the youth on our team, even if like CSing they hadn't proven to have earned it.

We're ready for a next phase. The real question lies in whether we will stick with Witt, whether he can make a case for a longterm successful system, or if Ted would prefer to get started deciding on a system with a coaching hire. Some part of that system determination may be decided by our draft position.

I suspect, as with the Knicks and his love of players like Minister of Defense Anthony Mason and Charles Oakley, Ernie likes a defensive based team. But where criticism of him may ring true lies in his desire to implement what his owner would like to see. This is why D'Antoni is still a risk. Seems to me though that Calipari may be an even bigger target, if not this next year, in the future. That said though, as far as I' concerned this would definitely threaten point #7. Coach Cal can't afford a no jerks policy on his teams. Ask big Cuz or douchebag Joey Dorsey.
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#115 » by hands11 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:14 am

doclinkin wrote:Hmmnn. Well don't see anyone celebrating the move. Other than Rico, who has taken a perverse position out of stubbornness and desire to defy fashion and is enjoying his outlier status.

But if you're talkin' 'bout me, the only part where I think I said 'we don't know' was not in assessment of Ernie, but in assessment of the pool of available stellar GMs. And Ted's knowledge thereof.

I'll clarify my position. Get over it. We're still headed in the right direction. Trust Ted, or if you don't, then email him a cogent and well-reasoned argument supported by fact. he may listen. Ernie isn't a roadblock. He's competent, mostly, and listens to his owner. He has so far done a decent job of doing what Ted said the plan was. Tough to fire a guy for doing what you told him to. And so far, by luck or chance or he's smarter than us, some of his picks have panned out or look like they may.

Of those that haven't (yet):

Singleton was a free pick from the Hawks trade. Ernie landed us that pick. And most of us were happy enough with the pick. Faried had adherents, but nobody was really cussin' on draft day since most didn't expect CSing to fall that far. I think I would have taken Faried (though some mocks had him available in for our round 2 pick) but Singleton was among the players discussed by experts for our #6 pick.

And again, if he's a miss, no point bitching too badly since he's a free pick. Singleton is also Seraphin, and um, Jordan Crawford, but still... He's also Mike Bibby's buy-out.

And may yet improve. Defense at the next level takes some experience and familiarity. His work ethic and attitude are good, he had no offseason and may yet rise.

Vesely is proving to be a high energy Big with a good work ethic and nice athleticism. He was all that when we drafted him, finding a key role on a winning program despite youth, and despite incomplete skills. In hindsight that's a decent indicator if you're looking for an unpolished gem needing health and experience and seasoning to improve. If Ernie risks on upside more than production, well true that's gotten him in trouble in the past, but it is a draft philosophy that will occasionally make a swing-for-the-fences home run. In the top part of the draft you're looking for stars if possible more than functional role-players I guess. Dat and I would have taken a stank Kemba Walker. And we're both relatively good at this. Ernie was better, looks like.

And that potential, selected in earlier years, netted us Nene from JaVale. So who's to say it's entirely wrong?


Anybody but Rico ?
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Re: Put closgoo on suicide watch: Ernie gets extended 

Post#116 » by nate33 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:35 pm

4. Commit to building around the draft. Invest in scouting, development, and a system. Draft players that fit the system, not the best player. Draft the best player for the system.

By my reckoning, that places Beal above MKG. Our system requires shooters to help spread the floor for Wall's penetration and Nene/Seraphin's post-ups.

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