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Adam Lind, worst player at his position

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flatjacket1
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#41 » by flatjacket1 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:30 am

joseph235 wrote:Yes I agree but people here are saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to compete with Adam Lind, so there's not even a 5%... 1% to compete? You all got to stop being so negative if you all think Adam Lind's going to drag this team down that far.


Yes there is a chance to compete with Lind. It's just stupid hard to compete with a 1B providing negative value. It takes a darn good offense/pitching team to overcome any position providing -1 fWAR (which Lind is on pace for). You just have to make up for it with different positions. Thames is on pace for -2.0 fWAR and Lind is on pace for -1 fWAR which makes it awfully hard to compete in the toughest division in baseball.

Even a replacement level player at those positions (An average AAA call up or as fangraphs says "These guys have fallen into that Four-A category, where they show more ability than your average Triple-A veteran but not enough to hold down a major league job. ") we would gain 3 wins, or 15M in surplus value (replacement level players cost 414k or league minimum which I don't know off the top of my head).

So essentially calling up a replacement level player at 1B (Cooper) who actually was on pace for - 0.6 fWAR in his 2010 stint as a 24 year old where he struggled and I argue played below true talent, and calling up a replacement level player at LF (Snider), we would gain around 14 million dollars in surplus value, not even counting the money we would save if we traded Lind for prospects.

Overall somebody else needs to take over 1B. Cooper moving to 1B is a short term fix but long term, I think we need to sign SOMEBODY or maybe acquire one in a trade. LF seems pretty set, calling Snider a replacement level player is the most misleading thing ever but I assume that he could play much better than replacement level. For example, in Snider's case he would have been worth 1 fWAR (above replacement level) if he played a full season last year (mainly in part to his defense) and he was the definition of struggling. That's another 5M in surplus value making it around 19M in total surplus value.

Anyways back to my main point, we can win with Lind. We could likely win with me or you playing 1B. The main problem is that he is providing negative value and needs to be removed from the lineup. When a replacement level player can do better, you should release him if all trade routes are exhausted and turn up nothing.

We could do better at 1B. We could do better in LF. Both need to be addressed within the month if we want to go for playoffs. The difference between 88 wins and 92 wins may be a playoff spot.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#42 » by joseph235 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:55 am

flatjacket1 wrote:
joseph235 wrote:Yes I agree but people here are saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to compete with Adam Lind, so there's not even a 5%... 1% to compete? You all got to stop being so negative if you all think Adam Lind's going to drag this team down that far.


Yes there is a chance to compete with Lind. It's just stupid hard to compete with a 1B providing negative value. It takes a darn good offense/pitching team to overcome any position providing -1 fWAR (which Lind is on pace for). You just have to make up for it with different positions. Thames is on pace for -2.0 fWAR and Lind is on pace for -1 fWAR which makes it awfully hard to compete in the toughest division in baseball.

Even a replacement level player at those positions (An average AAA call up or as fangraphs says "These guys have fallen into that Four-A category, where they show more ability than your average Triple-A veteran but not enough to hold down a major league job. ") we would gain 3 wins, or 15M in surplus value (replacement level players cost 414k or league minimum which I don't know off the top of my head).

So essentially calling up a replacement level player at 1B (Cooper) who actually was on pace for - 0.6 fWAR in his 2010 stint as a 24 year old where he struggled and I argue played below true talent, and calling up a replacement level player at LF (Snider), we would gain around 14 million dollars in surplus value, not even counting the money we would save if we traded Lind for prospects.

Overall somebody else needs to take over 1B. Cooper moving to 1B is a short term fix but long term, I think we need to sign SOMEBODY or maybe acquire one in a trade. LF seems pretty set, calling Snider a replacement level player is the most misleading thing ever but I assume that he could play much better than replacement level. For example, in Snider's case he would have been worth 1 fWAR (above replacement level) if he played a full season last year (mainly in part to his defense) and he was the definition of struggling. That's another 5M in surplus value making it around 19M in total surplus value.

Anyways back to my main point, we can win with Lind. We could likely win with me or you playing 1B. The main problem is that he is providing negative value and needs to be removed from the lineup. When a replacement level player can do better, you should release him if all trade routes are exhausted and turn up nothing.

We could do better at 1B. We could do better in LF. Both need to be addressed within the month if we want to go for playoffs. The difference between 88 wins and 92 wins may be a playoff spot.


To say Cooper is a better option than Lind based on his small sample size is a real stretch. Lind batted .300 sometime before the All star break last year and then fell off, who's to say Cooper wouldn't perform even worse over a longer period of time, also according to reports, his defense is bad... I'm not sure on that but I'd think AA would have him up if he really thought he was better than Lind.

One 1B option out there that I would like the Jays to go after is maybe to trade for Brandon Belt. Don't know if he's available but SF is doing some crazy **** keeping him on the bench.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#43 » by flatjacket1 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:33 am

joseph235 wrote:To say Cooper is a better option than Lind based on his small sample size is a real stretch. Lind batted .300 sometime before the All star break last year and then fell off, who's to say Cooper wouldn't perform even worse over a longer period of time, also according to reports, his defense is bad... I'm not sure on that but I'd think AA would have him up if he really thought he was better than Lind.

One 1B option out there that I would like the Jays to go after is maybe to trade for Brandon Belt. Don't know if he's available but SF is doing some crazy **** keeping him on the bench.


I think he played under his true talent level too. He is the definition of a replacement level player though. If you think Cooper is a AAAA player, then you think Cooper is replacement level.

All I'm saying is we are on pace to have Lind lose us a full win over the course of a season. I think he needs to be swapped out for either Cooper or McDade (hes a bit young but I think hes on the 40 man) and then traded, and then we need to address 1B in the offseason via either trade or FA.

Lind's defense is below average according to advanced stats.

Belt is the Cooper of the SFG, so if we trade for him it's kind of pointless. A no power 1B who will struggle to stay above replacement level.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#44 » by joseph235 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:15 pm

flatjacket1 wrote:
joseph235 wrote:To say Cooper is a better option than Lind based on his small sample size is a real stretch. Lind batted .300 sometime before the All star break last year and then fell off, who's to say Cooper wouldn't perform even worse over a longer period of time, also according to reports, his defense is bad... I'm not sure on that but I'd think AA would have him up if he really thought he was better than Lind.

One 1B option out there that I would like the Jays to go after is maybe to trade for Brandon Belt. Don't know if he's available but SF is doing some crazy **** keeping him on the bench.


I think he played under his true talent level too. He is the definition of a replacement level player though. If you think Cooper is a AAAA player, then you think Cooper is replacement level.

All I'm saying is we are on pace to have Lind lose us a full win over the course of a season. I think he needs to be swapped out for either Cooper or McDade (hes a bit young but I think hes on the 40 man) and then traded, and then we need to address 1B in the offseason via either trade or FA.

Lind's defense is below average according to advanced stats.

Belt is the Cooper of the SFG, so if we trade for him it's kind of pointless. A no power 1B who will struggle to stay above replacement level.


You can't be serious, Cooper had a total of 9 hrs in the PCL last year while Belt had that in 200 abs in the majors. I don't know where you read that Belt had no power because that's entirely false, there's a reason why Belt was a top ranked prospect just last year while Cooper is minor league fodder.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#45 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:27 am

joseph235 wrote:You can't be serious, Cooper had a total of 9 hrs in the PCL last year while Belt had that in 200 abs in the majors. I don't know where you read that Belt had no power because that's entirely false, there's a reason why Belt was a top ranked prospect just last year while Cooper is minor league fodder.


He had 31 HR in 825 minor league plate appearances, or a HR every 26 PA, which means lack of power if you ask me. That is 18 HR's for a 1B in 500 PA. That's in the minors and yes that involves his freakish 2010 season where he hit 23 HR.

Belt was a top tier prospect last season. In 2012 he lost his prospect eligibility but hes an ex uber prospect who dipped power wise.

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/04/1 ... id-cooper/

DJF mentioned it in their blog.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#46 » by joseph235 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:35 am

flatjacket1 wrote:
joseph235 wrote:You can't be serious, Cooper had a total of 9 hrs in the PCL last year while Belt had that in 200 abs in the majors. I don't know where you read that Belt had no power because that's entirely false, there's a reason why Belt was a top ranked prospect just last year while Cooper is minor league fodder.


He had 31 HR in 825 minor league plate appearances, or a HR every 26 PA, which means lack of power if you ask me. That is 18 HR's for a 1B in 500 PA. That's in the minors and yes that involves his freakish 2010 season where he hit 23 HR.

Belt was a top tier prospect last season. In 2012 he lost his prospect eligibility but hes an ex uber prospect who dipped power wise.

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/04/1 ... id-cooper/

DJF mentioned it in their blog.


Their talking about Cooper not Belt, in that article. Belt has more power than Cooper.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#47 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:38 am

joseph235 wrote:Their talking about Cooper not Belt, in that article. Belt has more power than Cooper.


Belt has more power but that's like saying Corey Patterson is better than Juan Rivera. It's not by much, and he is still relatively powerless for a 1B. He has Overbay power.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#48 » by joseph235 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:44 am

flatjacket1 wrote:
joseph235 wrote:Their talking about Cooper not Belt, in that article. Belt has more power than Cooper.


Belt has more power but that's like saying Corey Patterson is better than Juan Rivera. It's not by much, and he is still relatively powerless for a 1B. He has Overbay power.


Powerless? That's like saying Adrian Gonzales or Joey Votto are not power hitters because they didn't a bunch in the minors.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#49 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:49 am

joseph235 wrote:Powerless? That's like saying Adrian Gonzales or Joey Votto are not power hitters because they didn't a bunch in the minors.


Fine your right, Brandon Belt is a power hitter. 30+ next year baby.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#50 » by joseph235 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:01 am

flatjacket1 wrote:
joseph235 wrote:Powerless? That's like saying Adrian Gonzales or Joey Votto are not power hitters because they didn't a bunch in the minors.


Fine your right, Brandon Belt is a power hitter. 30+ next year baby.


He's not a power hitter, but he has way more tools than Cooper judging by the scouting reports so writing him off as never being better than a replacement level player I don't agree with. I don't know anymore options out for 1B, maybe someone like Logan Morrison or an old guy on a non-contending team at the trade deadline.
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Re: Adam Lind- worst player at his position 

Post#51 » by flatjacket1 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:04 am

joseph235 wrote:
flatjacket1 wrote:
joseph235 wrote:Powerless? That's like saying Adrian Gonzales or Joey Votto are not power hitters because they didn't a bunch in the minors.


Fine your right, Brandon Belt is a power hitter. 30+ next year baby.


He's not a power hitter, but he has way more tools than Cooper judging by the scouting reports so writing him off as never being better than a replacement level player I don't agree with. I don't know anymore options out for 1B, maybe someone like Logan Morrison or an old guy on a non-contending team at the trade deadline.


After doing some reading I would say thats a fair thing to say. I'd like Belt on our team, wouldn't mind Logan Morrison either.

Either way we need Lind to leave asap. No point trading anybody for a player that is not young and controllable though.
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Re: Adam Lind, worst player at his position 

Post#52 » by U_Mad » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:01 pm

if we're gonna protect Bautista with a lefty, why not just stick Rasmus in there...lind is useless
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Re: Adam Lind, worst player at his position 

Post#53 » by flatjacket1 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:21 pm

U_Mad wrote:if we're gonna protect Bautista with a lefty, why not just stick Rasmus in there...lind is useless


I'd rather Rasmus than Lind any day.
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Re: Adam Lind, worst player at his position 

Post#54 » by Waylon Mercy » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:54 pm

I give up on Lind :giveup:
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Re: Adam Lind, worst player at his position 

Post#55 » by baulderdash77 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:16 pm

flatjacket1 wrote:
U_Mad wrote:if we're gonna protect Bautista with a lefty, why not just stick Rasmus in there...lind is useless


I'd rather Rasmus than Lind any day.


Or we could put in Thames. Along with EE he's our best hitter this year. It's a shame that EE, Thames & Lawrie are penciled in at 5,6,7 right now.
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Re: Adam Lind, worst player at his position 

Post#56 » by flatjacket1 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:26 pm

baulderdash77 wrote:
flatjacket1 wrote:
U_Mad wrote:if we're gonna protect Bautista with a lefty, why not just stick Rasmus in there...lind is useless


I'd rather Rasmus than Lind any day.


Or we could put in Thames. Along with EE he's our best hitter this year. It's a shame that EE, Thames & Lawrie are penciled in at 5,6,7 right now.


I ranked them in another thread, I think it should be: (ranked from most wanted in the 4th spot)
1. Edwin
2. Colby (doesn't hit many GB)
3. Thames
4. Lawrie (Just due to the amount of GB he is hitting this season, don't want GDP)
5. Lind
6. JPA

For the 5th hitter (if #4 was Edwin) I'd want Lawrie though, I just don't really agree too much with batting a ground ball hitter 4th.

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