A petition to fight flopping

[SteveDobbs]

As a Bulls fan trying to find things to do with myself besides suicide, I decided to start a Change.org petition against flopping in the NBA.

All it took was 300,000 signatures on this site for Bank of America to drop their $5 debit card fee.

If you think, as I do, that flopping is ruining the game, go on there and sign the petition. It takes five seconds. In a couple hours with nothing other than posting on the general board here I have a handful of signatures.

http://www.change.org/petitions/nationa ... uspensions

Stern and the NBA obviously don't have to listen to Jeff Van Gundy, but maybe with enough people voicing their displeasure, they'd have to take the issue seriously and look at doing something, anything about it.

Mods feel free to lock if you don't want this on your team's board.

[hands11]

As a Bulls fan trying to find things to do with myself besides suicide, I decided to start a Change.org petition against flopping in the NBA.

All it took was 300,000 signatures on this site for Bank of America to drop their $5 debit card fee.

If you think, as I do, that flopping is ruining the game, go on there and sign the petition. It takes five seconds. In a couple hours with nothing other than posting on the general board here I have a handful of signatures.

http://www.change.org/petitions/nationa ... uspensions

Stern and the NBA obviously don't have to listen to Jeff Van Gundy, but maybe with enough people voicing their displeasure, they'd have to take the issue seriously and look at doing something, anything about it.

Mods feel free to lock if you don't want this on your team's board.

I guess flopping could get called unsportsmanlike or a foul. It is kind of dangerous at time.

[nate33]

I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is "flopping", and there is "selling contact" to the officials. If someone tries to take a charge, gets bumped in the shoulder by the offensive player as he tries to sidestep the defender, and the defender falls down backwards in an attempt to sell the contact; is that a "flop"? Or is that a good defensive play? What about when an offensive player drives the lane and falls down after every shot attempt a la Dwyane Wade? Is that a flop?

Player that blatantly flop without any contact whatsoever should get a technical or some kind of fine. It doesn't happen all that much though.

[hands11]

I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is "flopping", and there is "selling contact" to the officials. If someone tries to take a charge, gets bumped in the shoulder by the offensive player as he tries to sidestep the defender, and the defender falls down backwards in an attempt to sell the contact; is that a "flop"? Or is that a good defensive play? What about when an offensive player drives the lane and falls down after every shot attempt a la Dwyane Wade? Is that a flop?

Player that blatantly flop without any contact whatsoever should get a technical or some kind of fine. It doesn't happen all that much though.

Those are good examples.

You are right. It isn't clear but things like that would make it more clear.

I would say anything that falls into the category of acting.. i.e. what LeBron does... should be unsportsmanlike.

Even yesterday when he was blindsided, he still throw in an extra exaggerated body flop thing. I wasn't even needed. It is just automatic for him to do that. That is a bad example because there is was just annoying more then anything dangerous.

I say you can stiffen up your body so that when contract is made, you fall. That is not a flop. A flop is an acting move. They could define it as such. For example on a charge. In a normal charge, the offensive player makes contact that usually slows them down. Most charges are front on. In a flop, that player keeps their forward momentum and the defender is basically undercutting them. That is kind of dangerous. A a min, that should be called a foul or unsportsmanlike.

In the situation where someone slightly backs into someone and they flops, that can't really be called a foul. That play did just take themselves out of the play. Now is that player on the floor getting in the way of other players. There could be a foul called regarding that. Maybe a delay of game type of thing or similar to a defensive 3 seconds.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Flopping should be a post game reviewable play. If it was blatant, it should be fined. Accumulate a certain number of fines, and face a suspension.

[20MexicanosIn1Van]

Flopping should be a post game reviewable play. If it was blatant, it should be fined. Accumulate a certain number of fines, and face a suspension.

Agree 100%. It shouldn't be the ref's responsibility to also look for flopping. The NBA should fine the guys after the fact and I guarantee that would stop flopping. How embarrassing would it be for guys like Blake Griffin to be fined every week for flopping? Players would stop not because of the loss of money but because it would just be so damn embarrassing.

[SteveDobbs]

Flopping should be a post game reviewable play. If it was blatant, it should be fined. Accumulate a certain number of fines, and face a suspension.

Agree 100%. It shouldn't be the ref's responsibility to also look for flopping. The NBA should fine the guys after the fact and I guarantee that would stop flopping. How embarrassing would it be for guys like Blake Griffin to be fined every week for flopping? Players would stop not because of the loss of money but because it would just be so damn embarrassing.

Agreed completely. That's why I'm hoping we keep adding signatures.

[dangermouse]

^Great idea, I can't see any other way that blatant flopping could be combatted.

Refs need to swallow their whistle a bit, its a tough job, but if im sitting in the stands and i can notice when a play is/isnt a flop, then surely they can see it too.

I have no problem if a player falls when taking a charge, that is a good defensive play.

The kind of flailing-wildly like a ragdoll that we've seen from Griffin this year is just inexcusable and hurts not only his reputation, but that of his team and eventually the league as a whole. Come on Griff, you are a meaty 6'9".... a little shove isnt going to have you flying into second row waving your arms about.

In Rugby League here in Australia, if a tackle looks dangerous (swinging arm, contact above the shoulders, pile driving into the ground etc. etc.) the refs will either pull it up straight away if it was really obvious, or it will be reviewed post-game by a panel who decide wether it really was dangerous or just looked bad, they then decide an appropriate course of action to take and the player at fault gets a chance to explain themselves. I could see something similar happening with flops in the NBA. I dont even think monetary fines would be necessary, the embarassment would probably be enough plus suspensions for repeat offenders.

[hands11]

It should stop because of the same reason for a flagrant foul.

It is not a basketball play.

[Severn Hoos]

I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is "flopping", and there is "selling contact" to the officials. If someone tries to take a charge, gets bumped in the shoulder by the offensive player as he tries to sidestep the defender, and the defender falls down backwards in an attempt to sell the contact; is that a "flop"? Or is that a good defensive play? What about when an offensive player drives the lane and falls down after every shot attempt a la Dwyane Wade? Is that a flop?

Player that blatantly flop without any contact whatsoever should get a technical or some kind of fine. It doesn't happen all that much though.

My answer may not be "black and white" in application, but should be simple to understand and - for better or worse - be based on the judgment of the referee to make the call.

Remember the old NFL rules about when a catch was a catch, and they used the term "football move"? I'd like to see the NBA & NCAA have a similar rule, at least in the books. Any move that is clearly unnatural should not be rewarded with a foul call.

So, I'm sorry - running to a spot on the floor and planting your feet, without even looking for the basketball, just to draw a charge - that would be out, in my book. I'd give defenders more leeway in standing their ground if they're already in a spot, or going straight up to make a play. But I really hate the attempt to draw a charge, which has been the primary cause of flopping, IMO. You have to at least make a paly on the ball - not unlike soccer's tripping rule.

Likewise, a guy dribbling at half court who feel contact and flings the ball at the basket should NEVER get a shooting foul called. (Remember Gil used to do this all the time. Never did work for him.)

And a guy who does a pump fake and gets the defender flying by him - but not right at him - who then jumps sideways to initiate contact? Sorry, no call. Or maybe we'll hit you for a charge.

Point is, if the player (offense or defense) makes an "unnatural move" (in the referee's judgment) for the sole purpose of drawing a foul, rather than making a "basketball move", then no foul should be called.

And if there is an egregious act of flopping (i.e., Wade in every game he's played for the past 2 years), it should be reviewable and punishable by fine and/or suspension for repeat violators.

[dobrojim]

flop schmop

I want them to get rid of the stupid rule that encourages players
to roll the ball upcourt when inbounding. The five second count should
continue until the ball is touched by a player in bounds. I believe that
is how it used to be and I can't help but SMH at changing that rule.

[nate33]

I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is "flopping", and there is "selling contact" to the officials. If someone tries to take a charge, gets bumped in the shoulder by the offensive player as he tries to sidestep the defender, and the defender falls down backwards in an attempt to sell the contact; is that a "flop"? Or is that a good defensive play? What about when an offensive player drives the lane and falls down after every shot attempt a la Dwyane Wade? Is that a flop?

Player that blatantly flop without any contact whatsoever should get a technical or some kind of fine. It doesn't happen all that much though.

My answer may not be "black and white" in application, but should be simple to understand and - for better or worse - be based on the judgment of the referee to make the call.

Remember the old NFL rules about when a catch was a catch, and they used the term "football move"? I'd like to see the NBA & NCAA have a similar rule, at least in the books. Any move that is clearly unnatural should not be rewarded with a foul call.

So, I'm sorry - running to a spot on the floor and planting your feet, without even looking for the basketball, just to draw a charge - that would be out, in my book. I'd give defenders more leeway in standing their ground if they're already in a spot, or going straight up to make a play. But I really hate the attempt to draw a charge, which has been the primary cause of flopping, IMO. You have to at least make a paly on the ball - not unlike soccer's tripping rule.

Likewise, a guy dribbling at half court who feel contact and flings the ball at the basket should NEVER get a shooting foul called. (Remember Gil used to do this all the time. Never did work for him.)

And a guy who does a pump fake and gets the defender flying by him - but not right at him - who then jumps sideways to initiate contact? Sorry, no call. Or maybe we'll hit you for a charge.

Point is, if the player (offense or defense) makes an "unnatural move" (in the referee's judgment) for the sole purpose of drawing a foul, rather than making a "basketball move", then no foul should be called.

And if there is an egregious act of flopping (i.e., Wade in every game he's played for the past 2 years), it should be reviewable and punishable by fine and/or suspension for repeat violators.

I agree with most of this, except for the part about drawing charges. I think it's perfectly legitimate to run in front of a moving player, plant your feet, and draw a charge. An offensive player doesn't have the right to go crashing straight to the rim. He has to figure out a way to get around a defender, not through him.

[nate33]

flop schmop

I want them to get rid of the stupid rule that encourages players
to roll the ball upcourt when inbounding. The five second count should
continue until the ball is touched by a player in bounds. I believe that
is how it used to be and I can't help but SMH at changing that rule.

Interesting that this bugs you. It doesn't bother me a bit. It's a smart play by the PG receiving the ball to let it roll for a while if time is short. If the defense doesn't like it, they should play some defense in the backcourt.

I just don't see this is a problem that hurts the game in any way.

[mohammed10]

flop schmop

I want them to get rid of the stupid rule that encourages players
to roll the ball upcourt when inbounding. The five second count should
continue until the ball is touched by a player in bounds. I believe that
is how it used to be and I can't help but SMH at changing that rule.

Interesting that this bugs you. It doesn't bother me a bit. It's a smart play by the PG receiving the ball to let it roll for a while if time is short. If the defense doesn't like it, they should play some defense in the backcourt.

I just don't see this is a problem that hurts the game in any way.

Agree with you on this point, nate.

[mohammed10]

I don't think the issue is so black and white. There is "flopping", and there is "selling contact" to the officials. If someone tries to take a charge, gets bumped in the shoulder by the offensive player as he tries to sidestep the defender, and the defender falls down backwards in an attempt to sell the contact; is that a "flop"? Or is that a good defensive play? What about when an offensive player drives the lane and falls down after every shot attempt a la Dwyane Wade? Is that a flop?

Player that blatantly flop without any contact whatsoever should get a technical or some kind of fine. It doesn't happen all that much though.

My answer may not be "black and white" in application, but should be simple to understand and - for better or worse - be based on the judgment of the referee to make the call.

Remember the old NFL rules about when a catch was a catch, and they used the term "football move"? I'd like to see the NBA & NCAA have a similar rule, at least in the books. Any move that is clearly unnatural should not be rewarded with a foul call.

So, I'm sorry - running to a spot on the floor and planting your feet, without even looking for the basketball, just to draw a charge - that would be out, in my book. I'd give defenders more leeway in standing their ground if they're already in a spot, or going straight up to make a play. But I really hate the attempt to draw a charge, which has been the primary cause of flopping, IMO. You have to at least make a paly on the ball - not unlike soccer's tripping rule.

Likewise, a guy dribbling at half court who feel contact and flings the ball at the basket should NEVER get a shooting foul called. (Remember Gil used to do this all the time. Never did work for him.)

And a guy who does a pump fake and gets the defender flying by him - but not right at him - who then jumps sideways to initiate contact? Sorry, no call. Or maybe we'll hit you for a charge.

Point is, if the player (offense or defense) makes an "unnatural move" (in the referee's judgment) for the sole purpose of drawing a foul, rather than making a "basketball move", then no foul should be called.

And if there is an egregious act of flopping (i.e., Wade in every game he's played for the past 2 years), it should be reviewable and punishable by fine and/or suspension for repeat violators.

I agree with most of this, except for the part about drawing charges. I think it's perfectly legitimate to run in front of a moving player, plant your feet, and draw a charge. An offensive player doesn't have the right to go crashing straight to the rim. He has to figure out a way to get around a defender, not through him.

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

[montestewart]

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

I don't have the wording of the rule or any ref guidelines, but I would think once player takes off he can't change his direction, and anyone subsequently moving into the path and planting his feet should and would get (at a minimum) a blocking foul as the person that could have avoided the contact. Is that not right? The problem may be "superstar" calls and such that unevenly apply the rules on this.

I agree with a lot of these peeves, especially when the shooter dives sideways to initiate contact.

[nate33]

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

If the defensive player establishes position too late, it's a blocking foul. If the defensive player had time to establish position, then the offensive player made an error in "taking flight" so close to a defensive player who was in position to take the charge.

I just don't have any problem with this at all. I don't consider it flopping. I think offensive players already get too much of an advantage with the hand check rules and the ticky tack fouls. The last thing this league needs is to punish good defensive plays. I love it when smaller, less-athletic guys like Nash or Kidd can stop big athletes from driving to the basket by using quickness and guile rather than brawn.

I'm also in favor of Vlade Divac style flopping on post plays (assuming there is actual contact and not phantom contact). I always hated it when burly post guys like Shaq could just knock people over on their path to the basket. How is that basketball? If I want to see huge guys knocking over smaller guys, I'd watch football.

[dobrojim]

flop schmop

I want them to get rid of the stupid rule that encourages players
to roll the ball upcourt when inbounding. The five second count should
continue until the ball is touched by a player in bounds. I believe that
is how it used to be and I can't help but SMH at changing that rule.

Interesting that this bugs you. It doesn't bother me a bit. It's a smart play by the PG receiving the ball to let it roll for a while if time is short. If the defense doesn't like it, they should play some defense in the backcourt.

I just don't see this is a problem that hurts the game in any way.

point taken about playing D in the backcourt but ultimately, how does
allowing them to roll the ball upcourt make the game better? I still think
it should be a 5 sec call which is really a separate issue from saving a few
seconds on the shot clock. If the D team isn't playing any backcourt D,
any NBA guard can move to the frontcourt in about 2 seconds anyway.
Or again, if no D is being played they can pass the ball to where the
receiving player is picking up the ball when it's being rolled up.

[Severn Hoos]

I agree with most of this, except for the part about drawing charges. I think it's perfectly legitimate to run in front of a moving player, plant your feet, and draw a charge. An offensive player doesn't have the right to go crashing straight to the rim. He has to figure out a way to get around a defender, not through him.

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

Absolutely agree 100% here. The rule should definitely be that the defender has to have his feet set BEFORE the player with the ball leaves his feet. Most important is the reason you mention - huge risk of injury in this play (just ask DaSean Butler). But I also think it's unfair to the player with the ball - once he's left his feet, how is he supposed to "figure out a way to get around the defender"? He's in midair! That should be a simple rule change, and I can't see a reason in the world why anyone would object.

nate - the issue I have is when a guy just runs to a spot without making any kind of attempt to play "real defense" (in my admittedly subjective view). No question - if a defender has position, he should be able to keep it, and the player with the ball has no right to go through him. This is a true charge, IMO. Think Shaq in his heyday. If an opposing big man is behind him, Shaq shouldn't have (had) the right to just bump/knock him backwards to dunk the ball. Unfortunately, the floppers (thanks, Vlade) put the focus more on their actions, when it should have been on Shaq. But a real defender (like Dikembe, back in the day) has the right to his space, even if Shaq is bigger than he is.

But let's suppose John Wall is on the wing, 30 feet from the basket. He gets by his man and sees a lane to the hoop. The help defender should (IMO) make a play for the ball - go for the block, get a hand in his face, alter the shot - whatever he can do to disrupt Wall. But a race to a particular spot on the floor with the winner decided in milliseconds just doesn't make sense to me - nor does it make good basketball.

Now, if the defender was already in that spot (let's set a somewhat arbitrary count of 1 second), then Wall should absolutely have to go around him. No free passes there. I could live with the current rule (and BTW, take away the semicircle, I think that's just made it worse), but with the statement that the defender has to be set with both feet for one second, and then you'd still call a charge. Or, alternatively, something like if the defender is set with both feet at least one step before the man with the ball leaves the floor (giving him a chance to maneuver around the defender), or similar language.

I just hate the "show him the pits" defense. It's ugly basketball.

[mohammed10]

nate - I think we all have visions of LeBron or DWade doing this crashing. However, I have an issue when a defender steps in once the offensive player has already taken flight, thus undercutting him. This is where serious injuries can occur to both players.

I don't have the wording of the rule or any ref guidelines, but I would think once player takes off he can't change his direction, and anyone subsequently moving into the path and planting his feet should and would get (at a minimum) a blocking foul as the person that could have avoided the contact. Is that not right? The problem may be "superstar" calls and such that unevenly apply the rules on this.

I agree with a lot of these peeves, especially when the shooter dives sideways to initiate contact.

monte - agree with you. One superstar who was famous for doing this was Reggie Miller...