First Round Playoff Thread

Newz · Post #421 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:39 pm

I personally think LeBron is a better player than Kobe ever was. I think he's getting close to that Magic/Bird level, but still falls short of Jordan.

europa · Post #422 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:42 pm

I think LeBron is the superior talent but I'll take Kobe over LeBron because I think Kobe is more willing to be great than LeBron. That's purely subjective obviously but I see a will and determination to win championships at all costs from Kobe that I've yet to see from LeBron. That's one of the ways I would compare Kobe to Jordan. Like Jordan, Kobe doesn't care if he comes across as the biggest a*****e on the team or on the court or in the league. He just wants to win and he'll kill anyone who gets in his way. I haven't seen anything remotely close to that from LeBron.

REDDzone · Post #423 » by **REDDzone** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:42 pm

Newz wrote:My main issues with Kobe are:
1. He could have won more rings. His refusal to feed Shaq the ball more cost him wins and he lost because of his selfishness at times.

Knowing how much you like/respect LeBron, isn't this always going to be something you could criticize him for as well?

Even if he wins the next 5 championships, he could have potentially had at least one more (last year) if he didn't disappear in the 4th quarter so often in the playoffs.

REDDzone · Post #424 » by **REDDzone** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:43 pm

Yea, LeBron over Kobe for me and its not close to close.

Newz · Post #425 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:44 pm

europa wrote:I think LeBron is the superior talent but I'll take Kobe over LeBron because I think Kobe is more willing to be great than LeBron. That's purely subjective obviously but I see a will and determination to win championships at all costs from Kobe that I've yet to see from LeBron. That's one of the ways I would compare Kobe to Jordan. Like Jordan, Kobe doesn't care if he comes across as the biggest a*****e on the team or on the court or in the league. He just wants to win and he'll kill anyone who gets in his way. I haven't seen anything remotely close to that from LeBron.

As far as winning rings goes... I've seen Kobe play with a guy significantly better than him that got him three rings. I've also see Kobe cost his teams championships by being an idiot and not feeding the ball to Shaq when teams (the Pistons specifically) would not double him and dared Kobe to pass him the ball... yet Kobe just kept flinging up bad shots.

Give LeBron the same Shaq that Kobe had all those years and I think they have at least three rings, probably more... because LeBron would have fed Shaq the ball more.

Newz · Post #426 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:47 pm

REDDzone wrote:Knowing how much you like/respect LeBron, isn't this always going to be something you could criticize him for as well?

Even if he wins the next 5 championships, he could have potentially had at least one more (last year) if he didn't disappear in the 4th quarter so often in the playoffs.

I think last year, in the Finals, LeBron let his team down in a big way. He didn't do it by being selfish or not playing with his team though... he just didn't play well. Kobe knew he should get the ball to Shaq, who was a superior player, and he refused to.

The end result is the same though.

I guess the way Kobe lost was just far more irritating to me than the way LeBron did it. Kobe wouldn't get the ball to arguably the most dominant player ever and forced up stupid shots to try and prove a point... LeBron just played like total poop.

europa · Post #427 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:47 pm

I'm not denying Kobe's flaws just like I won't ignore the ones LeBron has - which is among the many reasons why I think comparing either to Jordan is crazy. I just think Kobe has more of a will to win and be great than I've seen from LeBron. I'm in complete agreement that LeBron is the superior talent but if you told me I could have one in their prime with a championship on the line I'd take Kobe. There's more that goes into being a champion than just great ability. There are intangibles as well and I think in that respect that's where LeBron, to this point, has typically fallen short.

REDDzone · Post #428 » by **REDDzone** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:50 pm

Newz wrote:I think last year, in the Finals, LeBron let his team down in a big way. He didn't do it by being selfish or not playing with his team though... he just didn't play well. Kobe knew he should get the ball to Shaq, who was a superior player, and he refused to.

Well, if we think of the construct "selfishness" as a continuum...I see what Kobe did and does sometimes as way too far on the selfish side, and I dislike it. However, I also see LeBron way too far on the passive side sometimes, especially in late game situations. Pretty much opposite ends of the same problem for me. Although I agree that Kobe's is more irritating, just because:

selfishness < unselfishness

Newz · Post #429 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:52 pm

europa wrote:I'm not denying Kobe's flaws just like I won't ignore the ones LeBron has - which is among the many reasons why I think comparing either to Jordan is crazy. I just think Kobe has more of a will to win and be great than I've seen from LeBron. I'm in complete agreement that LeBron is the superior talent but if you told me I could have one in their prime with a championship on the line I'd take Kobe. There's more that goes into being a champion than just great ability. There are intangibles as well and I think in that respect that's where LeBron, to this point, has typically fallen short.

I guess I don't see LeBron as a guy who has fallen short a lot. Last year, yes. The Heat had the talent to win a championship and they didn't get it done.

LeBron has spent most of his career in Cleveland playing with guys like Mo Williams, AV or washed up Jamison as the second best players on his team... he even took one of those teams filled with mediocre talent to the Finals.

Like I said, LeBron hasn't won championships yet because he's been surrounded by championship level talent for one year so far in his career.

It will never stop baffling me how people cannot see that a championship is a team award. Kobe had Shaq... then he had Gasol/Odom/Bynum. Jordan had Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc. Magic had Kareem/Worthy. Bird had McHale/Parish.

Those guys had those players for long periods of time and then they got it done and won rings. LeBron has been rolling out there with Mo Williams/Varaejo/Big Z most of his career. Give the guy more than one chance to win a ring before you judge him, IMO.

Newz · Post #430 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:54 pm

REDDzone wrote:
Newz wrote:I think last year, in the Finals, LeBron let his team down in a big way. He didn't do it by being selfish or not playing with his team though... he just didn't play well. Kobe knew he should get the ball to Shaq, who was a superior player, and he refused to.

Well, if we think of the construct "selfishness" as a continuum...I see what Kobe did and does sometimes as way too far on the selfish side, and I dislike it. However, I also see LeBron way too far on the passive side sometimes, especially in late game situations. Pretty much opposite ends of the same problem for me. Although I agree that Kobe's is more irritating, just because:

selfishness < unselfishness

Pretty much how I very it too.

Last year LeBron definitely faded when it mattered most... he was brilliant in the playoffs until the Finals where he folded.

europa · Post #431 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:55 pm

If LeBron aspires to be one of the greatest of all time then judging him for his current body of work is more than fair. I'm certainly not writing LeBron off or saying he'll never win a title or even disputing the greatness of his talent. I have just questioned to this point in his career how bad he really wants to be great and how bad he really wants to be a champion. Say what you want about Kobe but I definitely have never questioned that about him. He doesn't always go about things the right way, but there's no denying how badly he wants to win and be a champion.

Newz · Post #432 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:58 pm

europa wrote:If LeBron aspires to be one of the greatest of all time then judging him for his current body of work is more than fair. I'm certainly not writing LeBron off or saying he'll never win a title or even disputing the greatness of his talent. I have just questioned to this point in his career how bad he really wants to be great and how bad he really wants to be a champion. Say what you want about Kobe but I definitely have never questioned that about him. He doesn't always go about things the right way, but there's no denying how badly he wants to win and be a champion.

None of that makes any sense and you know it.

You're saying "Ignore LeBron has played with inferior talent his whole career" even though that plays a major part in evaluating what team should win the championship.

The other guys you are comparing him to are/have played with top 5, top 15, top 50 players of all-time and/or legit all-stars all around them and they have it for multiple seasons. LeBron has had a team like that around him for one... and even his team now isn't as balanced as a lot of those squads, as Miami has a major weakness in the middle.

LUKE23 · Post #433 » by **LUKE23** » Wed May 2, 2012 2:59 pm

europa wrote:If LeBron aspires to be one of the greatest of all time then judging him for his current body of work is more than fair. I'm certainly not writing LeBron off or saying he'll never win a title or even disputing the greatness of his talent. I have just questioned to this point in his career how bad he really wants to be great and how bad he really wants to be a champion. Say what you want about Kobe but I definitely have never questioned that about him. He doesn't always go about things the right way, but there's no denying how badly he wants to win and be a champion.

Definitely agree with this. I honestly think if Kobe's brain was in LeBron's body, he'd already have a title, if not multiple. Internal drive does matter. And there is plenty of evidence to question LeBron in that area.

europa · Post #434 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:03 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
europa wrote:If LeBron aspires to be one of the greatest of all time then judging him for his current body of work is more than fair. I'm certainly not writing LeBron off or saying he'll never win a title or even disputing the greatness of his talent. I have just questioned to this point in his career how bad he really wants to be great and how bad he really wants to be a champion. Say what you want about Kobe but I definitely have never questioned that about him. He doesn't always go about things the right way, but there's no denying how badly he wants to win and be a champion.

Definitely agree with this. I honestly think if Kobe's brain was in LeBron's body, he'd already have a title, if not multiple. Internal drive does matter. And there is plenty of evidence to question LeBron in that area.

Yup. Sorry Newz, I believe what I wrote does make sense. Again, I completely acknowledge much of what I've said is subjective but I stand by it. I don't question Kobe's will to be a champion. I have often questioned that about LeBron.

Badgerlander · Post #435 » by **Badgerlander** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:07 pm

Chandler DPOY

He should call Coach K and Casey thank them

LUKE23 · Post #436 » by **LUKE23** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:08 pm

Easy DPOY vote this year. Chandler should have won unanimously.

Badgerlander · Post #437 » by **Badgerlander** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:11 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Easy DPOY vote this year. Chandler should have won unanimously.

took the Knicks from 21st to 5th on D

Newz · Post #438 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:11 pm

europa wrote:Yup. Sorry Newz, I believe what I wrote does make sense. Again, I completely acknowledge much of what I've said is subjective but I stand by it. I don't question Kobe's will to be a champion. I have often questioned that about LeBron.

It's easy to believe what you believe when you ignore most of the points I'm making.

It's okay, I've had this argument before and I've seen the same responses. Logic basically goes out the window.

jerrod · Post #439 » by **jerrod** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:11 pm

LUKE23 wrote:Easy DPOY vote this year. Chandler should have won unanimously.

yep,

i actually think several of the awards should be unanimous. 6th man also and imo mvp, but that's never unanimous, i don't think.

europa · Post #440 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:14 pm

Newz wrote:
europa wrote:Yup. Sorry Newz, I believe what I wrote does make sense. Again, I completely acknowledge much of what I've said is subjective but I stand by it. I don't question Kobe's will to be a champion. I have often questioned that about LeBron.

It's easy to believe what you believe when you ignore most of the points I'm making.

I haven't ignored anything. I simply don't believe the points you've made lead me to revise the point I've made in any way. I don't think we need to stipulate the fact that Shaq was better than Mo or Andy V but if you'd like me to do that I will. But that still doesn't change my primary point - and that is to this point in his career I haven't seen the win at all costs attitude from LeBron that Kobe has displayed. Again, I don't always like the way Kobe plays or has played but I don't question how badly he wants to win and be great. I often question that with LeBron. Maybe after this season I no longer will. We'll see.