Raptors NBA Draft Thread: Harrison Barnes

[fredericklove]

I'm becoming convinced Barnes best role in the NBA will be as a Jeff Green type small 4. At the 3 his mediocore skill and speed is a disadvantage. At the 4 it will be an advantage. Plus he doesn't need to be an elite shooter at PF, he just needs to be able to hit out to 20 feet and that allows him provide a spacing role. Also DX has him listed as 6'9 with a 6'11 wingspan so he's not far off physically. I'm not interested in Barnes the SF but I might take Barnes the stretch PF top 14

You just don't get it. None of elite scouts had even said he should be a stretch 4, and what you said doesn't make any sense, his game is pure SF, he's a good spot up shooter from catch and shoot/screens, these are SF style, many good shooters who can catch and shoot without elite handles are good enough to play the 3. You already said this Barnes being stretch 4 once and now twice which further proves you have no idea what you're talking about.

[C_Money]

Gil Zero shot that at the NBA 3 point line while being the focal point of everybody's defense.

[5DOM]

James Johnson would take away his jump shot which would erase him from the game.

If it's 1 on 1, JJ has upper advantage, but I can't see JJ able to guard him thru screens or p&r because that's where Barnes utilize best and excel at.

And with you saying 35% in 3pt line, that's considered so-so average. That doesn't even mean he can't shoot a good 3 pointer, he has 1.3 3PM of 3.6 3PA at 3s (36%), if you say that's poor stuff. Look at that the past his prime scrubbin' Gilbert Arenas' 02-03 season where he shot a similar 1.3 3PM of 3.8 3PA (.35%), if you say Barnes shot poor 3PT percentage and use it to solidify your claim that he's a poor 3 pt shooter. Then Zero's 35% should put himself in the weak 3 point shooting guy category too then.

Not that I completely disagree with you, but there's a difference between the college 3 point line and the NBA 3 point line. It's also worth noting that Barnes played on one of the most stacked teams (+ great college pass first PG) that allowed him to get easy looks.

[fredericklove]

Gil Zero shot that at the NBA 3 point line while being the focal point of everybody's defense.

I'm not even talking about focal point of defense nor NBA 3 point line. Just in general about percentage, I'm talking about the mid-30%. Is mid-30% at 3 point line considered poor?

[Dr Positivity]

There's been a lot of really good college 3pt shooters who couldn't replicate it in the NBA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nca01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... swe01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... yxa01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nje02.html

I'm sure there's many, many, many more 35%+ college 3pt guys who's range never developed to the NBA line. 35% from NCAA 3 isn't special at all. Especially if it's an ok volume and with low 70s FT% and a very low 2pt % for a lottery pick

[Undefeated]

It's also worth noting that Barnes played on one of the most stacked teams (+ great college pass first PG) that allowed him to get easy looks.

Correct, but a lot of Barnes' 3-point attempts were rushed at the end of the shot-clock I've seen. Not exactly easy looks when you're trying to beat the shot-clock.

http://www.chapelboro.com/Tar-Heels-Must-Do-Well-At-The-End-Of-Shot-Clocks/12442401

[fredericklove]

There's been a lot of really good college 3pt shooters who couldn't replicate it in the NBA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nca01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... swe01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... yxa01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nje02.html

I'm sure there's many, many, many more 35%+ college 3pt guys who's range never developed to the NBA line. 35% from NCAA 3 isn't special at all. Especially if it's an ok volume and with low 70s FT% and a very low 2pt % for a lottery pick

So from these comparison, you're logically including Barnes into that category where he won't develop to the NBA line, thats a pretty weird logic. And what's new with you anyways, other than using deliberate scrubs comparison as argument?

[tdotrep2]

Lol guys just ignore Mufasa. Barnes has the form and strength to be able to shoot from NBA range I think he will be fine in that department.

[TheToothFairy]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

[KG1585]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

Getting a Glen Rice clone at 8th would be a great pick.

[BillyGM]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

Glen Rice was goood 27 PPG scorer in his Prime

[TheToothFairy]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

Getting a Glen Rice clone at 8th would be a great pick.

Agreed, I would want a 2way player but hopefully he isn't one dimensional ala Jason Kapono. He also reminds mod the SF version of Allan Houston

[GreatWhiteStiff]

so he reminds you of guys who can shoot basicly?

[TheToothFairy]

so he reminds you of guys who can shoot basicly?

Yes, but I am not convinced that he has a complete game. I also have concerns that he may end up being more of a inefficient shooter than a pure one

[fredericklove]

so he reminds you of guys who can shoot basicly?

Yes, but I am not convinced that he has a complete game. I also have concerns that he may end up being more of a inefficient shooter than a pure one

It depends on what you want him to do with the ball, if you know what plays you can run for him, i.e, sets screens where he can run to the corner pocket for an uncontested 3/curl off the screens and fires/gets little spacing under the screens and pull the trigger. He can knock down shots like that with ease.

If you don't run plays and only gives him final 5 seconds to create on iso, then he'll likely take a tough 1-2 steps pullup jumper or a contested runner in the lane. That will make him inefficient. He can also be a streaky shooter, but when the game is on the line, he'll knock down clutch shots.

[kmatrixg]

so he reminds you of guys who can shoot basicly?

Yes, but I am not convinced that he has a complete game. I also have concerns that he may end up being more of a inefficient shooter than a pure one

He's a shooter first and foremost, but he can't create his own shot which is why he struggled when Marshall went down. He was the only offensive option on the team, so his efficiency is going to look bad naturally. His mechanics are great though, combined with a high release point with him being in the 6'7/6'8 range. What I'm worried about is UNC's tendency to create another Marvin Williams - a guy who was a spot up shooter who scored a lot in college, but it translated to nothing in the NBA. The same things were being said about Marvin that are being said about Barnes.

From Draft Express:

Strengths
The most developed part of [player's] offensive game right now is his almost flawless jumpshot. It’s a very natural shot and he shows great form for his size. His shot looks almost effortless and each shot is nearly identical with his elbow tucked in, arms straight, good follow-through and height. His form looks the same whether it’s a mid-range jumper or a 3 pointer, and he releases it fairly quick. His great leg strength really helps him because he less likely to shoot tired jumpers. [Player] has shown he is a great FT shooter. He is calm and poised at the line and is always confident in the shot.

Weaknesses
Offensively, [Player] has only shown that he can score in one of four ways: open stand still jumpshots, lay-ups / dunks on fast breaks, put-backs and free throws. [Player] hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble. If [player] is going to be a great small forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game. Also, [player] has shown no post moves outside of trying to overpower his opponents with a drop-step toward the basket. When surrounded by defenders in the paint [player] often gets his shot blocked because he has yet to show a jump hook, a fadeaway or an up-and-under move. In fact, [player's] best offensive move in the paint is trying to get to the free throw line. He will not be able to draw fouls easily against more experienced defenders. If [player] is going to be a great forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game.

I intentionally took out the names to make you look at it objectively. The similarities are there. By the way - it's Marvin up above.

[fredericklove]

you intentionally used Marvin's as example of someone who didn't translate well to the NBA, using this Marvin case to solidify your claim that Barnes will "also" won't translate to the NBA, this is a classical case where players comparison is used to question a prospect's game.

Any prospects will be written roughly similar in terms of shooting as their strength, especially someone with a good follow through jump shot with great form, its obvious scouting will report similar quoting, even Beal was mentioned on his jumper in this instance from draftexpress:

there's very little not to like about his shooting form, as he gets great elevation, possesses a consistent release point, shows excellent follow-through

Right now you're putting Marvin's weaknesses into Barnes comparison? Let me show you what you need to look at, in an objective way,

draftexpress on Marvin

Offensively, [Player] has only shown that he can score in one of four ways: open stand still jumpshots, lay-ups / dunks on fast breaks, put-backs and free throws.

draftexpress on Barnes

Barnes is an outstanding shot-maker, ...he should end up being a versatile scoring option who can catch the ball in different areas of the floor, whether it's posting up smaller players, catching the ball in the mid-range, running off screens, or being used in isolations and pick-and-rolls on the perimeter as he improves his ball-handling.

draftexpress on Marvin

[Player] hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble. If [player] is going to be a great small forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game.

draftexpress on Barnes

Barnes' biggest strengths revolve around his excellent scoring instincts and offensive polish, effectively utilizing shot-fakes and displaying advanced footwork when catching the ball on the perimeter and in the mid-range area, which he uses along with his great size and frame, to create space to free himself for jumpers.

draftexpress on Marvin

Also, [player] has shown no post moves outside of trying to overpower his opponents with a drop-step toward the basket. When surrounded by defenders in the paint [player] often gets his shot blocked because he has yet to show a jump hook, a fadeaway or an up-and-under move.

draftexpress mentioned on "posting up smaller players" as one of Barnes' scoring option and didn't mention any negativity on it. Barnes rarely gets his shots blocked when posting up, and he does fadeaway too (whether its posting up or off the dribble)

[TheToothFairy]

so he reminds you of guys who can shoot basicly?

Yes, but I am not convinced that he has a complete game. I also have concerns that he may end up being more of a inefficient shooter than a pure one

It depends on what you want him to do with the ball, if you know what plays you can run for him, i.e, sets screens where he can run to the corner pocket for an uncontested 3/curl off the screens and fires/gets little spacing under the screens and pull the trigger. He can knock down shots like that with ease.

If you don't run plays and only gives him final 5 seconds to create on iso, then he'll likely take a tough 1-2 steps pullup jumper or a contested runner in the lane. That will make him inefficient. He can also be a streaky shooter, but when the game is on the line, he'll knock down clutch shots.

I am just hoping to get a franchise type of player. Can't have too many shooters but the Raps need a true #1 option and I feel barge and DD are 2/3 respectively

[fredericklove]

I am just hoping to get a franchise type of player. Can't have too many shooters but the Raps need a true #1 option and I feel barge and DD are 2/3 respectively

Can't expect to have a franchise type anymore at 8th pick. Weird tho, we don't even have a shooter on our team its our most glaring need! To be honest, Bargs can be #1 option on offense, he's proven he can do that, I'm not a Bargs fan just so you know, I don't think we need 1st option because I don't mind three scorers sharing the offense on our team...its just better if we have a balance of offense and good defense, that's all I'm looking for in our draft position. So the franchise type is definitely long gone. And besides, no one is going to be a true #1 option at 8th (maybe lamb )

[kmatrixg]

I am just hoping to get a franchise type of player. Can't have too many shooters but the Raps need a true #1 option and I feel barge and DD are 2/3 respectively

Can't expect to have a franchise type anymore at 8th pick. Weird tho, we don't even have a shooter on our team its our most glaring need! To be honest, Bargs can be #1 option on offense, he's proven he can do that, I'm not a Bargs fan just so you know, I don't think we need 1st option because I don't mind three scorers sharing the offense on our team...its just better if we have a balance of offense and good defense, that's all I'm looking for in our draft position. So the franchise type is definitely long gone. And besides, no one is going to be a true #1 option at 8th (maybe lamb )

I think he meant that literally - as in, "you can never have too many shooters, but..."

Thanks for responding to my post too with some actual rebuttals.

I have no doubt Barnes can score, and in fact, I wouldn't mind him being selected 8th. I just have worries, that's all. I never call a fuzzy image a definite until it's focused, and the same applies here. I have no idea what Barnes will turn out to be but what I'm saying is there are obvious similarities in the way each were used and developed at UNC and I'm worried they might carry on with a similar trajectory. Who knows, Barnes could end up being a Jamison type UNC forward like a lot of people envisioned for Marvin. The real story lies in why Williams couldn't fulfill that potential. Maybe the result wasn't based on his collegiate skillset but his approach. Perhaps the skillset he and Barnes possess in kind has the potential to result in a Jamison type player.

The parts you bolded on Barnes' offensive skillset were all dependent, again, on one thing - his ability to improve his ball-handling.

...he should end up being a versatile scoring option who can catch the ball in different areas of the floor, whether it's posting up smaller players, catching the ball in the mid-range, running off screens, or being used in isolations and pick-and-rolls on the perimeter as he improves his ball-handling.

I'm not convinced Barnes will be able to become a Joe Johnson type scorer without the help of an elite, pass-first point guard. Right now, we don't have one for the future - we have Bayless. All of those tools he uses such as pump-fakes and step backs come with being a good shooter. Being able to step back from the defender is elementary, really. But, being able to shake a lock-down defender to initiate a dribble penetration is not, unfortunately. He needs to learn to use both hands effectively in order to flourish.

Like I said, I'm not against drafting Barnes because he is a deadly shooter. But, do we have the tools needed to develop his game and play into his current strengths to make sure he doesn't lose confidence? Not without making some big moves to bring in a great facilitator.