James Harden is a superstar

[dream_catcher_9]

Oh, and if you wanna talk impact, step away from RAPM for a second and hear this: In game one of the Mavs series, after struggling with his shot all night, Durant hits a miracle at the buzzer and a potential first round exit becomes a first round sweep. What could have beeb a disappointing season remains one with legitimate title chances.

This is possibly the most absurd combination of reductionist logic and hypothetical speculation I've ever seen.

agreed, if you watched that game, Durant was absolutely terrible. He made a miracle shot, but that doesn't make up for the other 47 minutes and 59 seconds...wouldn't even have come to that if he had played better.

Durant is the best volume scorer on the team, but that does not equal best offensive player. He is severely lacking in passing skills. That's important because when his shot is not falling at a good % he does not bring anything else to the table offensively, except spacing. Spacing can be provided by any good shooter though.

[dream_catcher_9]

Harden is underrated because he makes his teammates better and has crazy efficiency - that's tough to see for most fans or even most experts. Durant is league's best scorer who could probably score 35/game if he needed to. playmaking is underrated, scoring is overrated. there's your answer.

And I still don't see anyone wanting Harden over Durant.

People know what Harden brings to the table. He is a world class 3rd option who could probably be a world class 2nd option on another team or a star on a team running a treadmill.

This is obvious to most people who watch him play, even when you factor in his advanced stats.

Possibly, but Durant is playing with 2 other very good offensive players. Does Harden get that luxury in that situation? If so, I think he could lead a team to contender status.

[Bravely Done]

There are some things RAPM cant measure. It's a shame people have become so dependent upon numbers to tell them what they see, as opposed to paying attention to, and taking time to understand the game.

what makes you think these things are mutually exclusive? its like one of the dumbest things i read on this board when people assume that when you use numbers that you dont watch/understand the game.

When someone claims James Harden has a greater impact on the game than Durant, and points to RAPM as the source of that belief without any other explanation, it suggest to me that they're relying a little too heavily on numbers to tell them what they're seeing.

[dream_catcher_9]

I don't think Westbrook & Durant are the reason why Harden is so succesful on offense because Harden is much better without them in the game. Westbrook & Durant are usually taking away his touches and Harden is the most effective in the pnrs. I know that Harden isn't regarded as a superstar but in terms of advanced stats both boxscore and +/-, he beats out Durant actually.

Have you ever wondered why Harden is so successful running the pnr? Part of it can be explained by his high basketball iq, ability to beat defenders off the dribble with either hand, great play making skills, and his finishing ability around the rim. The part people don't see is that his skills are magnified by an open floor. In nearly all his PnR possessions he's allowed to play a two man game. A player of his caliber can eat in those situations nearly every time, so send more traps, right? Right. But you cant against OKC because they have a 6'11 monster with guard skills and unlimited range prowling the perimeter.

And so, defenses do what they must against players that have won three straight scoring titles. They respect him. So when people see Durant halt his off ball movement and stand stationary in either corner, or on either elbow, he isn't being lazy, he's drawing the defense. You'll see that teams, Dallas for example, will shade their entire defense to his side. Someone in his face, help from the big just outside the block, and maybe another defender sinking into the paint. This not only helps open up that stop and pop mid range game Westbrook stumbled upon this season, but leaves half the court open for James to feast in the PnR. That's exactly what you saw last night. Durant went 11/15 on jump shots in game 3, and Dallas played to that. That's how Durant makes his teammates better.

Numbers are meaningless without contex.

except that Harden performs better with Durant on the bench...........part of that is because he is playing against lesser players, but also because he is not just a bystander. Game 4 was one of the first times that Harden was able to handle the ball for long stretches with both Russ and KD on the court. Needs to happen A LOT more.

[bastillon]

check out the first post of this thread. I was the first one who jumped on Harden superstar bandwagon. I also made a thread "Harden > Durant" at the start of the season. it had nothing to do with numbers, I just watched him play and knew right away he's great. I even predicted he'd be among league leaders in plus minus without even knowing his scores from the previous seasons. so don't tell me I'm just repeating the same story numbers are telling me. if anything, numbers are repeating the same story I was telling after watching the guy play.

also lol@mentioning Kidd guarding Harden. Kidd was destroying Durant last year. Harden was 4-4 against Marion in that game 4. you have no clue.

[Bravely Done]

except that Harden performs better with Durant on the bench...........part of that is because he is playing against lesser players, but also because he is not just a bystander. Game 4 was one of the first times that Harden was able to handle the ball for long stretches with both Russ and KD on the court. Needs to happen A LOT more.

And when it happens a lot more the Ron Artest's, LeBron James's, and Sean Marion's will no longer be assigned to Durant, but Harden. Durant will no longer be the focal point of the defense, but again the focus will be shifted towards James, making things a lot easier for Durant. I'm sure he'll have a huge smile knowing he'll no longer be doubled off the ball, or draw the opposing teams best defender night in and night out.

[bastillon]

Durant doubled off the ball there are like 4 guys in history who were doubled off ball. Durant sure aint one of them.

[dream_catcher_9]

"He was just great," Carlisle said, in a "what else could we have done" tone. "We tried everything. We had five or six different coverages going... we needed to be better but it was more about how good he was."

and it's not like this was the first time Harden has gone off, this was just one of the few times he was getting the ball consistently late in the game. He has a dimension to his game that both Russ and KD just do not have(consistently), elite passing skills. When he gets into that lane, he has ability to pass it to a big man under the basket, back out to a 3 point shooter, get fouled or go for the layup.

I just love Harden's game the more I watch him.

[Bravely Done]

check out the first post of this thread. I was the first one who jumped on Harden superstar bandwagon. I also made a thread "Harden > Durant" at the start of the season. it had nothing to do with numbers, I just watched him play and knew right away he's great. I even predicted he'd be among league leaders in plus minus without even knowing his scores from the previous seasons. so don't tell me I'm just repeating the same story numbers are telling me. if anything, numbers are repeating the same story I was telling after watching the guy play.

also lol@mentioning Kidd guarding Harden. Kidd was destroying Durant last year. Harden was 4-4 against Marion in that game 4. you have no clue.

I'm not even going to argue further, I pose only a question. Well, two if you don't mind. You're starting a franchise; are you taking Harden or Durant? If Harden, do you believe any GM or team scout would cosign your decision?

[Bravely Done]

Durant doubled off the ball there are like 4 guys in history who were doubled off ball. Durant sure aint one of them.

Durant is doubled off the ball all the time, especially when playing in the starting lineup.

[Krodis]

Harden's early game numbers. Sustainable/will change

17.0 ppg - Sustainable. He will finish the season around this number

4.1 apg - Will change. I think he'll end the season around the 5 a game number. He's a great passer

5.9 rpg. Unsustainable. Rebounds will be around 4.5 a game when the season is over.

.449 fg%. Sustainable. I want to say he'll finish higher but he's never been a great mid-range shooter

.294 3pt% - Will change. His career average coming into this season was around 36%, it'll go up.

7.4 FTA - Unsustainable. Expect his season to finish around 6 FTA a game.

.904 ft% - Sustainable. After the all-star break last year he shot 92%

24.4 PER. Unsustainable. Will probably be around 22 at the end of the season, which is still very good

.648 ts%. Sustainable (to an extent). He was a 62 ts% player after the Jeff Green trade. I expect him to finish somewhere around there.

131 OffRtg. Sustainable (to an extent). Again, he was around this number last year after Green was traded. He actually finished the whole year with a 119 OffRtg last year. I expect him to be in the 120's this year (which is great)

Thought it would be fun to bring up fallacy's post and see how he did.

PPG: Yup, finished at 16.8
APG: It actually went DOWN, not up, which surprised me a bit. Perhaps because his MPG stayed fairly low
RPG: Yup, that was unsustainable. Finished at 4.1
FG%: Actually went up quite a bit to .491
3P%: Right on. Went up to actually a career high .390
FTA: Right on the dot. 6.0
FT%: Not quite. Finished a very respectable 85% though
PER: Yeah, about right. 21.1 I think fallacy was expecting more ball-handling while Westbrook and Durant were in the game
TS%: It actually went UP. Finished at .660
ORtg: Went down by virture of his turnover rate becoming more human

[dream_catcher_9]

Durant doubled off the ball there are like 4 guys in history who were doubled off ball. Durant sure aint one of them.

I dunno if you would call it doubled, but KD does get shaded quite a lot when he is roaming around.

[Krodis]

Durant doubled off the ball there are like 4 guys in history who were doubled off ball. Durant sure aint one of them.

Durant was actually tripled off the ball once during the playoffs once last year. Most bizarre thing I've ever seen.

... Of course, that had more to do with the offensive ineptitude of Sefolosha/Ibaka/Perkins than anything.

[dream_catcher_9]

check out the first post of this thread. I was the first one who jumped on Harden superstar bandwagon. I also made a thread "Harden > Durant" at the start of the season. it had nothing to do with numbers, I just watched him play and knew right away he's great. I even predicted he'd be among league leaders in plus minus without even knowing his scores from the previous seasons. so don't tell me I'm just repeating the same story numbers are telling me. if anything, numbers are repeating the same story I was telling after watching the guy play.

also lol@mentioning Kidd guarding Harden. Kidd was destroying Durant last year. Harden was 4-4 against Marion in that game 4. you have no clue.

I'm not even going to argue further, I pose only a question. Well, two if you don't mind. You're starting a franchise; are you taking Harden or Durant? If Harden, do you believe any GM or team scout would cosign your decision?

Durant, only because the fans would start a riot, and I also think Durant does have untapped potential, at least more than Harden. So in picking KD ill hope that he can go all Jordan on us in his prime.

But right now? I think Harden brings more to the table offensively on a per minute basis or on each touch.

[Bravely Done]

"He was just great," Carlisle said, in a "what else could we have done" tone. "We tried everything. We had five or six different coverages going... we needed to be better but it was more about how good he was."

and it's not like this was the first time Harden has gone off, this was just one of the few times he was getting the ball consistently late in the game. He has a dimension to his game that both Russ and KD just do not have(consistently), elite passing skills. When he gets into that lane, he has ability to pass it to a big man under the basket, back out to a 3 point shooter, get fouled or go for the layup.

I just love Harden's game the more I watch him.

And there are aspects of Durant's game that Harden doesn't possess. He isn't limited to spot up shooting or PnR play as he his dribble drive game ia complimented by a post and mid range game. He's also a much better defender and rebounder in addition to being a good passer in his own right. He's legitimate, proven franchise player, and had OKC winning 50 games and threatening the eventual campus when James Harden(and Serge Ibaka, for that matter) were after thoughts in way of Jeff Green and Nenad Kristic.

James Harden is a great player and one of the best young talents in the league, but he isn't the caliber of player Durant is. If the latter continues to develop his game, and OKC continues It's winning ways he'll have a legitimate case for top 20 all time. James Harden, good as he is, isn't that great.

[Bravely Done]

Durant, only because the fans would start a riot, and I also think Durant does have untapped potential, at least more than Harden. So in picking KD ill hope that he can go all Jordan on us in his prime.

But right now? I think Harden brings more to the table offensively on a per minute basis or on each touch.

Durant just logged a stat line of 28/8/4/50%fg/61%ts as the first option of an elite team. And he's 23 years old... I'm not sure you're grasping how rare that line is for someone so young. We'll have to agree to disagree on which brings more on offense.

[dream_catcher_9]

Durant, only because the fans would start a riot, and I also think Durant does have untapped potential, at least more than Harden. So in picking KD ill hope that he can go all Jordan on us in his prime.

But right now? I think Harden brings more to the table offensively on a per minute basis or on each touch.

Durant just logged a stat line of 28/8/4/50%fg/61%ts as the first option of an elite team. And he's 23 years old... I'm not sure you're grasping how rare that line is for someone so young. We'll have to agree to disagree on which brings more on offense.

I admit KD is a great young player and probably the best scorer in the league, or at least top 3. My only gripe with him is his inconsistent passing skills, I love guys who are elite passers which is why I probably overvalue Harden. Just think KD has a bad tendency to go long stretches where he doesn't impact the game other than spacing.

but I do understand why most people think KD is the better player.

[Bravely Done]

Excuse all my grammatical errors please, I'm posting from my phone at the moment.

[Vindicater]

I can't believe people actually think Harden would be better as the first option than Durant...

James Harden has quickly risen to most overrated status on realgm.

[fallacy]

Harden's early game numbers. Sustainable/will change

17.0 ppg - Sustainable. He will finish the season around this number

4.1 apg - Will change. I think he'll end the season around the 5 a game number. He's a great passer

5.9 rpg. Unsustainable. Rebounds will be around 4.5 a game when the season is over.

.449 fg%. Sustainable. I want to say he'll finish higher but he's never been a great mid-range shooter

.294 3pt% - Will change. His career average coming into this season was around 36%, it'll go up.

7.4 FTA - Unsustainable. Expect his season to finish around 6 FTA a game.

.904 ft% - Sustainable. After the all-star break last year he shot 92%

24.4 PER. Unsustainable. Will probably be around 22 at the end of the season, which is still very good

.648 ts%. Sustainable (to an extent). He was a 62 ts% player after the Jeff Green trade. I expect him to finish somewhere around there.

131 OffRtg. Sustainable (to an extent). Again, he was around this number last year after Green was traded. He actually finished the whole year with a 119 OffRtg last year. I expect him to be in the 120's this year (which is great)

Thought it would be fun to bring up fallacy's post and see how he did.

PPG: Yup, finished at 16.8
APG: It actually went DOWN, not up, which surprised me a bit. Perhaps because his MPG stayed fairly low
RPG: Yup, that was unsustainable. Finished at 4.1
FG%: Actually went up quite a bit to .491
3P%: Right on. Went up to actually a career high .390
FTA: Right on the dot. 6.0
FT%: Not quite. Finished a very respectable 85% though
PER: Yeah, about right. 21.1 I think fallacy was expecting more ball-handling while Westbrook and Durant were in the game
TS%: It actually went UP. Finished at .660
ORtg: Went down by virture of his turnover rate becoming more human

I'm impressed with myself

Just whatever you do, don't go to my preseason player prediction thread on the Thunder board. My Westbrook predictions were soooooooooooooooooooooo wrong