Jazz making Playoffs good or bad

[floppymoose]

I think making the playoffs is a good thing. First, you must establish a winning culture. Teams that routinely accept losing become perennial losers, regardless of the talent they draft.

Code: Select all

2011-12  Oklahoma City Thunder   47     19     .712
2010-11  Oklahoma City Thunder   55     27     .671
2009-10  Oklahoma City Thunder   50     32     .610
2008-09  Oklahoma City Thunder   23     59     .280
2007-08  Seattle SuperSonics     20     62     .244
2006-07  Seattle SuperSonics     31     51     .378
2005-06  Seattle SuperSonics     35     47     .427

[Jazzfan12]

I dint think I ever disagreed with that statement. By using Al and Paul, the Jazz showed the young guys how to win, and once they made the playoffs, Corbin gave the ball to Favors and Hayward and let them earn their lumps.

Al and Millsap play nothing like anyone else on the team.

What Favors has improved at this season are things that Al and Millsap have essentially never done in their entire career and things they certainly aren't doing right now.

Al and Millsap showed the young players that being able to hit tough shots can lead to positive results offensively but I don't know how that really helps them.

[jazzrock]

I say 1 & 2. At some point you have to get over that initial hump to become great. Getting into the playoffs is that initial hump.

I mean seriously, do we want to be the Kings/Warriors/Wizards/Bobcats/Twolves/Nets/Etc. who are consistently in the lottery with all this talent and potential that is going to eventually rise up and be an elite team because of all the "talent" they have acquired in the draft........

And for all you "fans" who voted for #3 -- Why do you encourage failure among the ones you claim to love?

[SoCalJazzFan]

This is one of the better threads I've read this year.

Personally, I've enjoyed the Jazz getting to the playoffs and watching Favors and Burks become the future face of the franchise. With 5 guys having no more than 2 yrs experience, the Jazz don't need another rookie (unless he happened to be a top 5 franchinse changing pick, which wasn't going to happen anyway with the 14th pick).

I have a question for red4hf and countrybama24, I think that you both have missed the primary question- which player (Sap or Big Al) will make the team better playing with Favors?

Quite frankly, that is all that matters as I think that there would be a consensus that we cannot keep all three more than 12 months into the future.

Once that question is answered, the next question we will be asking ourselves, as soon as tomorrow, is what could we get for that player?

[red4hf]

This is one of the better threads I've read this year.

Personally, I've enjoyed the Jazz getting to the playoffs and watching Favors and Burks become the future face of the franchise. With 5 guys having no more than 2 yrs experience, the Jazz don't need another rookie (unless he happened to be a top 5 franchinse changing pick, which wasn't going to happen anyway with the 14th pick).

I have a question for red4hf and countrybama24, I think that you both have missed the primary question- which player (Sap or Big Al) will make the team better playing with Favors?

Quite frankly, that is all that matters as I think that there would be a consensus that we cannot keep all three more than 12 months into the future.

Once that question is answered, the next question we will be asking ourselves, as soon as tomorrow, is what could we get for that player?

I think you need a scorer to go with Favors, because that's one area where he has a lot of room to improve...... So if you're talking about being successful, I think you have to play him with Jefferson...... Favors can make up for a lot of Jefferson's shortcomings in ways that Millsap can't...... On the other hand, Millsap cannot replace Jefferson's low post scoring......

[carrottop12]

I think making the playoffs is a good thing. First, you must establish a winning culture. Teams that routinely accept losing become perennial losers, regardless of the talent they draft.

Code: Select all

2011-12  Oklahoma City Thunder   47     19     .712
2010-11  Oklahoma City Thunder   55     27     .671
2009-10  Oklahoma City Thunder   50     32     .610
2008-09  Oklahoma City Thunder   23     59     .280
2007-08  Seattle SuperSonics     20     62     .244
2006-07  Seattle SuperSonics     31     51     .378
2005-06  Seattle SuperSonics     35     47     .427

I forget, how many series did the Thunder win their first year in the playoffs?

[floppymoose]

Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (4-2) versus Los Angeles Lakers

[StocktonShorts]

The difference here is that the Sonics/Thunder traded their aging star (Ray Allen) and gave minutes and touches to their young players right away. The Jazz didn't do that (though many here including myself wanted them to). Seattle/OKC never tanked for more draft picks, they just came naturally as part of the rebuild.

The Jazz are trying a different approach. While my preference would've been to trade at least two of Harris/Millsap/Jefferson BEFORE this season and give the keys to Hayward/Favors et al., once it became clear the Jazz weren't going that route, I think it's better that they tried to win and make the playoffs than if they had rested guys and conceded games in order to keep a late lottery pick.

[floppymoose]

Seattle OKC definitely did tank for more picks. That's what it is when you trade an all-star in his prime for the #5 pick in the draft. They went young with a full rebuild in mind, right from the start. Few teams have the stomach to really do that right, but it probably helped that they were leaving town anyway...

[StocktonShorts]

Seattle OKC definitely did tank for more picks. That's what it is when you trade an all-star in his prime for the #5 pick in the draft. They went young with a full rebuild in mind, right from the start. Few teams have the stomach to really do that right, but it probably helped that they were leaving town anyway...

Re-reading my post it wasn't very clear what I meant. I intended to draw a distinction between a front-office tank and a coaching tank (for lack of a better term):

Front-office tank: trade veterans for draft picks.

Coaching tank: sit veteran players to move up in the lottery. The mandate for this comes from the front-office of course, but it masquerades as a coaching decision.

I wanted the Jazz to pull a FO tank prior to this season and I still think it would've been the best move for the franchise. But they didn't. Given the option of finishing the season in coaching tank mode or striving for the playoffs I'd vote for the playoffs. I think it can be really hard to get the stink of a coaching tank off your team.

[floppymoose]

I agree with you about the desirability of moving AlJeff last offseason. It's hard to know what kind of offers were out there though.

[reapaman]

sorry ur clueless. Danny Green open bc Big AL cant play the pick and roll forcing Danny Green's player to help on defense thus leaving him open. Big Al doesnt play at all in this series then it would be very different. Jefferson is that bad of a player.

That actually never happened, not once. What happened in real life was that the Jazz brillantly started playing zone versus the spurs of all team. They tryed to collsape on parker with 2 or 3 guys and that left a shooter or two open.

Actually Jefferson often had to run and help against parker when he easily drives pass harris or whoever was guarding him. No one besides Favors would help Jefferson on defense and even that hardly ever happened. Jefferson is bad enough on defense, you don't have to make up stuff about him.

[countrybama24]

That actually never happened, not once. What happened in real life was that the Jazz brillantly started playing zone versus the spurs of all team. They tryed to collsape on parker with 2 or 3 guys and that left a shooter or two open.

Actually Jefferson often had to run and help against parker when he easily drives pass harris or whoever was guarding him. No one besides Favors would help Jefferson on defense and even that hardly ever happened. Jefferson is bad enough on defense, you don't have to make up stuff about him.

It sure happened a whole lot last night. I lost track of how many times big al was guarding the pick and roll, gave up a huge lane to the basket, manu or parker drive it collapsing the defense and kicking it to the open man (we definitely weren't in zone at the time). If you have the game recorded, go to the end of the 3rd when we were down by 4. They run the same play twice, manu pick and roll with Tiago (being guarded by al). He hedges on the wrong side of the pick and roll (completely unforgivable) manu the first time goes around the pick and shoots an uncontested three. The 2nd time al guards the wrong side against the pick (he is to the right of manu, tiago picks left and manu goes left), manu drives the lane and collapses our defense. They move the ball around the perimeter (all the time while Al trots back to the paint, closes out on no one, and hardly moves the entire sequence) and manu shoots an open three. This happens at least once (maybe twice) more in the 22-0 run that effectively ended our season.

[countrybama24]

The only two things good out of this playoffs in my opinion. 1. Illustrating the need to trade Jefferson and/or millsap. 2. Motivation for the young guys. If I were hayward or burks, I'd put "0-7" or "0-8" over my locker in the offseason to remind me exactly how bad I was in the playoffs and how much work Id have to do to get where I want to be.

[Spottieottie]

People keep forgetting that we've insured ourself from having to give up our own pick in any of the next upcoming years. Had we had it this year, but then had a disappointing season next year, we could have lost a #12 pick. Or dare-say if we had a bad year in 3 years the Wolves would get our pick regardless of how high or low it was.

Now that we have no more potential pick-trading obligations it opens us up more for trades as well.

Everyone conveniently forgets this.

Furthermore, making the playoffs and subsequently getting stomped exposes this team and its holes. Had we almost made the playoffs we could (and probably would have I feel) still try and compete with the same roster, thinking we could make some playoff noise. With this sweep the FO has no choice but to make alterations and not settle on "we almost got it, with a draft pick we should be fine".

Making playoffs 100% good. This year's #14 pick becoming a superstar is the only way I will eat my words.