Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls?

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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#361 » by Zane » Wed May 9, 2012 2:31 am

therealbig3 wrote:Barkley actually pointed this out, Watson/Lucas filled in great for Rose during the season, and that's why they kept winning without Rose. Right now, they're giving the Bulls nothing.

IMHO, the failure of the Bulls offense is more because of Watson/Lucas not doing anything, rather than Rose not being out there. If they filled in for him like they did during the regular season, this series is probably looking a lot different.


And the problem with that is Watson and Lucas are not going to do that in the playoffs. They can pull it off some during a condensed season with teams having little practice time, but are easily stopped due to their inferior offensive skills and orchestration of the sets... We'll see what it's like next season if the Bulls do not make any major moves. My bet is they would be around a .500 team.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#362 » by Doctor MJ » Wed May 9, 2012 2:41 am

Zane wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Barkley actually pointed this out, Watson/Lucas filled in great for Rose during the season, and that's why they kept winning without Rose. Right now, they're giving the Bulls nothing.

IMHO, the failure of the Bulls offense is more because of Watson/Lucas not doing anything, rather than Rose not being out there. If they filled in for him like they did during the regular season, this series is probably looking a lot different.


And the problem with that is Watson and Lucas are not going to do that in the playoffs. They can pull it off some during a condensed season with teams having little practice time, but are easily stopped due to their inferior offensive skills and orchestration of the sets... We'll see what it's like next season if the Bulls do not make any major moves. My bet is they would be around a .500 team.


And my problem with this is that NOBODY predicted the Bulls would be as good as they were in the regular season without Rose.

I'm not saying your argument is wrong, but what I am saying is that when people jump in on these type of arguments after the fact as if they were obvious ahead of time, that makes them have very little credibility in my book.

This is hardly a Bulls specific thing. You can see it for example with the criticism of Kevin Love over the year. At every stage in his career, there are detractors who have very low opinions of him compared to what his stats indicate, and those detractors always seem to make definitive predictive statements along the lines of "Yeah Love is doing X, but there's no way he could keep it up and do Y" that later gets proven false. It's pretty unlikely that this issue is coming from different sets of people who had previously seen Love's potential correctly and only now think he's overrated, so what that seems to indicate is that the same people are getting proven wrong again and again without any loss of confidence or any sense of sheepishness as they adjust their hypotheses to maintain consistent negativity.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#363 » by ElGee » Wed May 9, 2012 2:57 am

And this brings us back to the Kevin Garnett (and APM-related) themes dominating the discussions here lately. In the early 2000's,

I had endless debates with people about KG having a weaker team than someone like Duncan. Others said stuff like "he's a loser or second fiddle." I didn't understand how you could watch him play and not think if he had comparable teams he'd have comparable (or better) results than other stars. The hypothesis was tested: he went to Boston, they were nearly a 70-win pace team for a year and a half and won their only title opportunity before injury.

Yet people somehow didn't question their original postulations about Garnett! If anything, they seem more confident and incredulous now.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#364 » by tclg » Wed May 9, 2012 3:12 am

Yeah Kevin Was the big ticket for a reason the guy had crap around him. Mchale had a worse gm run that I Thomas I mean giving up first rounders because of signing joe smith, Come on.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#365 » by lorak » Wed May 9, 2012 4:02 am

alucryts wrote:While I understand the premise of this thread originally and the idea it was arguing (not the necessarily a single scenario), this is why I believe RAPM has serious predictive error.


And what exactly was RAPM based prediction for Bulls vs 76ers which includes:
1. No Rose AND Noah
2. Playing against 3.59 SRS team
?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#366 » by ronnymac2 » Wed May 9, 2012 9:00 am

I have a question.

How would somebody use a plus/minus stat to make a prediction? A prediction about what exactly?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#367 » by mysticbb » Wed May 9, 2012 9:13 am

Rerisen wrote:Not going to say anything about stats. Go back and read the thread and you may see some tea leaves for what is happening.


What is actually happing? Did you noticed that 11 points of the overall difference between the 76ers and Bulls is coming from free throw shooting? If both teams would shoot them normally, the Bulls would have a +2 difference right now instead of -9. RAPM predicts the Bulls with the current minutes distribution to be at +2 right now. The free throw shooting alone is dragging that down to 0. Overall it is -2. So, how much of a difference can we really see? And how much of that is really due to variance?

alucryts wrote:I also don't want to see people throwing the "sample size is too small in these playoffs" at this post because the sample size needed for my type of analysis is much smaller than plus minus. How often does an 8 seed trump a 1 seed with the MVP (Deng) on the team because of the "small sample size" of games used to determine the winner of the series?


So, the sample size is enough for you. That means you accept that Noah is not the defensive anchor? Or is the sample not big enough to draw such a conclusion? When Deng missed the games and the Bulls played clearly worse defensively, you weren't convinced and pointed out the sample size. But now the sample size is enough?

The Bulls without Rose played +4.7 SRS, the 76ers with Hawes at +4.3 SRS. Now, take Noah off and we expect the Bulls to be even worse. We add the normal variance (as Elgee pointed out) and we are right within the expectations here. Yes, RAPM would still predict the Bulls to have +2, while they have -2. But as I showed part of that is the free throw shooting (actually half of the difference) and the other part can easily be explained by normal variance. Let the Bulls make their FT at a normal rate and they would have 4 more and the 76ers 2 less. That makes 6 as a difference in a 5pt game.

And let us not ignore the fact that the Bulls got killed by the 76ers in February, when Rose played and Deng was out. They won with Rose and Deng playing, while also winning the game without Rose while Hawes played for the 76ers. And if we take game 4 into account, when Boozer was fouled on his attempt to tie the game, while Holiday got the ticky tack call, the Bulls could have already won that series with a bit more luck at the free throw line and a bit more luck with the ref decisions. That is what we are talking about here and how small the difference really is.

ronnymac2 wrote:I have a question.

How would somebody use a plus/minus stat to make a prediction? A prediction about what exactly?


Outcome of the game. Or even outcome of the multiple game snippets.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#368 » by ronnymac2 » Wed May 9, 2012 9:28 am

mysticbb wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:I have a question.

How would somebody use a plus/minus stat to make a prediction? A prediction about what exactly?


Outcome of the game. Or even outcome of the multiple game snippets.


How would you go about using plus/minus stats to determine the outcome of a game?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#369 » by mysticbb » Wed May 9, 2012 9:54 am

ronnymac2 wrote:How would you go about using plus/minus stats to determine the outcome of a game?


Well, use the expected minutes for each player, multiply those minutes with the RAPM value, sum all up and devide by the overall minutes.

If we do that for example for the series between the 76ers and the Bulls, we are getting +6.0 for the Bulls as expected value per game and +4.0 as expected value by the 76ers based on prior informed RAPM. Then we take HCA into account and we then can make a prediction like, Bulls at home vs. 76ers are winning by +5. 76ers at home vs. the Bulls are winning by +1.

You can use my SPM in the same fashion. I get +8.1 for the Bulls and +6.6 for the 76ers using the current minute distribution of the players. It bit smaller difference of +1.5 for the Bulls.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#370 » by te887848 » Wed May 9, 2012 1:15 pm

27 regular season games against scrubby, injured, resting, and/or apathetic teams is a greater sample size than 4 playoff games? You know, the ones where rotations are shortened, teams go balls out for 48 minutes, gameplan for Rose's teammates differently than they would in the regular season, etc. Yeah... don't think so.

Christ, I mean the 76ers themselves were 20-9 through a random 29 game stretch this year, had a crazy point differential and SRS too. How'd they end up finishing? As the worst team in the playoffs. The silliness of actually using a random 27 game regular season sample where the Rose-less Bulls feasted on bad teams or good ones who gave subpar efforts that wouldn't be seen in the PLAYOFFS is just mind-numbing.

The playoffs have exposed what the Bulls truly are without Rose. With a healthy Deng or not, they are a Bucks level team that would fight to finish .500. They're nothing without him. Anyone can see that. :lol:
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#371 » by EarlTheGoat » Wed May 9, 2012 6:55 pm

I like the fact that dudes like mysticbb are trying to use data and pythagorean einstein-like formulas to prove something that isnt actually happening. :lol:

76ers are up 3-2 in the series and the Bulls are horrible offensively. Watch the god damn games and come back to me.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#372 » by EarlTheGoat » Wed May 9, 2012 6:57 pm

te887848 wrote:27 regular season games against scrubby, injured, resting, and/or apathetic teams is a greater sample size than 4 playoff games? You know, the ones where rotations are shortened, teams go balls out for 48 minutes, gameplan for Rose's teammates differently than they would in the regular season, etc. Yeah... don't think so.

Christ, I mean the 76ers themselves were 20-9 through a random 29 game stretch this year, had a crazy point differential and SRS too. How'd they end up finishing? As the worst team in the playoffs. The silliness of actually using a random 27 game regular season sample where the Rose-less Bulls feasted on bad teams or good ones who gave subpar efforts that wouldn't be seen in the PLAYOFFS is just mind-numbing.

The playoffs have exposed what the Bulls truly are without Rose. With a healthy Deng or not, they are a Bucks level team that would fight to finish .500. They're nothing without him. Anyone can see that. :lol:


Great post.

Lets see what the stat-heads and the RAPM cult think about it.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#373 » by mysticbb » Wed May 9, 2012 9:14 pm

EarlTheGoat wrote:Lets see what the stat-heads and the RAPM cult think about it.


What should we say to someone who is thinking that the variance during 4 games is less of an issue than during 27 games?

And RAPM actually predicted the Bulls to have a worse offense while staying pretty constant defensively. They indeed show that in reality. Oh, RAPM is off by 4 points per game, great. But if you would have watched the games, you would also see how much of a difference a call or non call can make (game 4) or the free throw shooting (game 3). Let us assume that Boozer gets the call and Holiday don't. All of the sudden the game is tied and the Bulls don't need to rush things offensively. The Bulls winning the game instead of losing. Now, let us assume that the Bulls hitting their free throws in game 3 while the 76ers struggle a bit at line. All of the sudden the Bulls would have won that game. We would talk about the Bulls having closed out the series after 5 games wile playing 4 games without Rose and winning 3 of them. The things I assumed are not something completely out of the ordinary, just game situations ending a bit differently and being more related to luck (variance) than to skill. How would you talk right now about it?

Even though it is to assume that the 76ers will win game 6, but maybe the Bulls get a bit lucky and pull out a win here. Then they go on and win at home game 7. Will you be back in this thread?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#374 » by EarlTheGoat » Wed May 9, 2012 10:58 pm


What should we say to someone who is thinking that the variance during 4 games is less of an issue than during 27 games?


You completely ignored te887848`s post clearly explaining the context in which those 27 regular season games happened, and comparing them to a tough Playoff series. You pretending to equal those 2 sample-sizes is laughable.


And RAPM actually predicted the Bulls to have a worse offense while staying pretty constant defensively. They indeed show that in reality. Oh, RAPM is off by 4 points per game, great. But if you would have watched the games, you would also see how much of a difference a call or non call can make (game 4) or the free throw shooting (game 3). Let us assume that Boozer gets the call and Holiday don't. All of the sudden the game is tied and the Bulls don't need to rush things offensively. The Bulls winning the game instead of losing. Now, let us assume that the Bulls hitting their free throws in game 3 while the 76ers struggle a bit at line. All of the sudden the Bulls would have won that game. We would talk about the Bulls having closed out the series after 5 games wile playing 4 games without Rose and winning 3 of them. The things I assumed are not something completely out of the ordinary, just game situations ending a bit differently and being more related to luck (variance) than to skill. How would you talk right now about it?


:lol: at this stuff.

Lets assume Robert Horry doesnt make the 3 pointer in game 5. Lets assume Jordan doesnt make that shot in 98, lets assume lets assume lets assume.

We are dealing with reality here, and what actually happened and is happening. Maybe if the Bulls had Rose they wouldnt have needed to reach that critical situation in game 3. RAPM and the people behind its logic have somehow been a lil bit exposed this time, proving basketball is not mathematics. Stop trying to make us pretend this Bulls team could be perfectly fine without its best player when this is clearly not the situation.

Even though it is to assume that the 76ers will win game 6, but maybe the Bulls get a bit lucky and pull out a win here. Then they go on and win at home game 7. Will you be back in this thread?


Oh, dont worry, I will be here if that happens. Its a shame Rose got injured because we could have starting talking about the Bulls rival in ECSF by game 4. Complete shame.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#375 » by mysticbb » Wed May 9, 2012 11:21 pm

EarlTheGoat wrote:You completely ignored te887848`s post


True, because it makes more sense to teach a tree how to read than responding to someone thinking that 4 is actually more than 27. For sure we can rationalize everything and then come to any kind of conclusion. That is neither consistent nor in any way or shape useful.

EarlTheGoat wrote:Lets assume Robert Horry doesnt make the 3 pointer in game 5. Lets assume Jordan doesnt make that shot in 98, lets assume lets assume lets assume.


Well, now assume those things, do you change your idea how much O'Neal effected the game or how much Scottie Pippen?

EarlTheGoat wrote:We are dealing with reality here, and what actually happened and is happening.


Yeah, and I said already what really happened. Now, can you live with the reality knowing that much of what happened in those games was based on luck regarding free throw shooting and getting the call correct? No, for sure not, because you need to rationalize things and see pattern where actually no patterns are. A typical human fallacy, so, don't blame yourself too much. ;)

EarlTheGoat wrote:Stop trying to make us pretend this Bulls team could be perfectly fine without its best player when this is clearly not the situation.


Find the post in which I said that the Bulls would be perfectly fine without Rose. Seriously, go ahead and show me that one post. RAPM tells us that the Bulls will actually play worse without Rose, it tells us that the Bulls will have a worse offense while staying rather constant defensively. That's what happened. Heck, the Bulls played 4.6 points worse without Rose. Why in hell should I assume that the Bulls would be perfectly fine?

EarlTheGoat wrote:Oh, dont worry, I will be here if that happens.


Well, we will see.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#376 » by ElGee » Wed May 9, 2012 11:48 pm

EarlTheGoat wrote:
te887848 wrote:27 regular season games against scrubby, injured, resting, and/or apathetic teams is a greater sample size than 4 playoff games? You know, the ones where rotations are shortened, teams go balls out for 48 minutes, gameplan for Rose's teammates differently than they would in the regular season, etc. Yeah... don't think so.

Christ, I mean the 76ers themselves were 20-9 through a random 29 game stretch this year, had a crazy point differential and SRS too. How'd they end up finishing? As the worst team in the playoffs. The silliness of actually using a random 27 game regular season sample where the Rose-less Bulls feasted on bad teams or good ones who gave subpar efforts that wouldn't be seen in the PLAYOFFS is just mind-numbing.

The playoffs have exposed what the Bulls truly are without Rose. With a healthy Deng or not, they are a Bucks level team that would fight to finish .500. They're nothing without him. Anyone can see that. :lol:




Great post.

Lets see what the stat-heads and the RAPM cult think about it.


Statistics describe the world. They do it in the language of math. To think of them as some sort of subjective divide is like treating physics as a mystical religion. If someone doesn't understand how to use them, he/she should just ask.

If everyone took a deep breath and looked at what they are being defensive about, there would be enough laughter to fill the entire day. Seriously, it's a basketball discussion. This idea that you need to flex your knowledge on topics that are outside of that scope is a little strange, is it not? If I started a poker thread, would everyone respond with the incredulity and disdain that they normally display toward basketball statistics?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#377 » by ElGee » Wed May 9, 2012 11:58 pm

EarlTheGoat wrote:I like the fact that dudes like mysticbb are trying to use data and pythagorean einstein-like formulas to prove something that isnt actually happening. :lol:

76ers are up 3-2 in the series and the Bulls are horrible offensively. Watch the god damn games and come back to me.


Free throw shooting?

You alleged something based on a binary result -- wins or losses. The free throw shooting of the players is a function of variance. That's a real thing, and it is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT INDEPENDENT of the question being asked (about Derrick Roses value). Mysticc is saying your conclusion about W-L is off because what ACTUALLY HAPPENED on the court, outside the free throw shooting, would have been a Chicago win.

That's not einstein-like formulae. That's you saying something like "when these two teams play, Philly is just better at scoring more than Chicago," only you didn't notice the reason for that was variance on the free throw line. So unless you think that has something to do with Derrick Rose, you've drawn a poor conclusion. That's all.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#378 » by Rerisen » Thu May 10, 2012 12:50 am

mysticbb wrote:What is actually happing? Did you noticed that 11 points of the overall difference between the 76ers and Bulls is coming from free throw shooting? If both teams would shoot them normally, the Bulls would have a +2 difference right now instead of -9. RAPM predicts the Bulls with the current minutes distribution to be at +2 right now. The free throw shooting alone is dragging that down to 0. Overall it is -2. So, how much of a difference can we really see? And how much of that is really due to variance?


I think you are asking the wrong questions, if we are trying to get at truer values of these teams and players. Acting as if we already know these things, and any variation from previous expectation is the result of something random or abnormal happening.

As we speak the Bulls and Philly are creating an ever changing new reality on the court, giving us new information that we should be incorporating into a better understanding of the value of these teams and the players on them. Instead of it seems, trying to rationalize, excuse and what if, the difference between what certain preferred numbers would expect to be happening vs what is actually happening.

If the Bulls and Philly were to play another series immediately after this one, but with the same circumstances concerning who was available each game, I would look at this first series as the best evidence to understand the new series to come, rather than what happened during the season against a myriad of different opponents. But either way, you'd want to include this current series for determining value to a heavy degree. Especially for Philly as they were so bipolar during the season.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#379 » by Rerisen » Thu May 10, 2012 1:04 am

The Bulls major problem in the series has been at the end of games an in clutch time, when the team is reliant on Derrick Rose the most. Something that actually didn't come up often without him in the season! A team like Philly, a great defensive team, is especially good at shutting down a system offense in crunch time, when the pressure of the situation alone already makes a complicated series of actions more difficult to pull off, than just going to your superstar.

The Bulls have actually been competitive overall through 3 quarters even in the games they lost. To me none of this is a surprise and exactly what I would expect, and actually predicted. That the Bulls defense and rebounding can keep them in games without Rose, but failure of execution in crunch time against a top defense has done them in.

In the three games the Bulls have lost, Philly is +23 in the three 4th quarters, while only being +6 through the other 9 quarters in those games.

Here is a post I made on the Bulls board, after Game 1 when Derrick Rose first went down, when Bulls fans were still in uber confident mode due to what the team had done during the season without Rose, and many thinking they had a great chance to advance to play Miami in the ECF:

Rerisen wrote:The biggest hurdle is going to be closing games, not staying in them. Most playoff games, especially once you get to the 2nd round and beyond, are close, and come down to what happens in the final couple minutes. We saw this last year in the ECF even with Rose, but there just was not enough help around him to keep Miami's defense guessing.

The Bulls will have similar, but even greater problems without Derrick closing games against great teams this year. OKC will go to Durant, or Westbrook, SA to Manu or Parker, and Miami to LeBron or Wade. The Bulls will go to... who? Try to run their system offense? Very few teams can win with system offense late in big games, when its superstar time.


Note no mention of Philly. Noah was not hurt at the time, and I expected the Bulls still had a fair chance to win that series with him, despite the specific concerns therein, Philly being a team similarly prone to late game struggles. But without Jo, these specific problems have come even more to the fore making it far more dicey.

But that any model is going to predict a 'close' series between a Rose-less Bulls and Philly, and land in the ballpark is piffle. Any casual fan of the NBA could do the same, without even having watched either team during the year. Understanding the deciding points and where the games are turning on is a bit different.

Sidenote: Not sure to what exactness any of this has to do with Luol Deng. If we wanted to know about Loul Deng, we would look at Luol Deng as an individual in the series, not the whole Bulls team in which other players could be making the difference instead. In a way the thread always seemed more about Rose's value from the beginning.

Deng has mostly been stinking it up offensively it in the series (12.2 PER), as he and Iggy lock each other up. He finally stepped up in Game 5 and the Bulls won. He will have to continue to step up in similar ways I would expect for the Bulls to win the series.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#380 » by ElGee » Thu May 10, 2012 5:59 am

Rerisen- crunch time represents something like 5-10% of the possessions in a close game. G2 wasn't close, so it's strange to say it's made the difference or put so much emphasis on it. It's just another part of the game.

Your statement about playoff games being closer is also just a myth. If you look into it, you'll find that games aren't really much closer, although I've never done a detailed look at later rounds that you alluded to. I can do so tomorrow quickly if I get a minute.

Also, while I'm here, I'd like to see you participate I'm the next realgm Project, assuming it's a worthwhile project and your historical knowledge matches your knowledge of the bulls.
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