Official Trade Thread: Part 3

[RunDogGun]

Now if Houston was really wanting a center, I could see them packaging their two picks, and a few young rising stars for DHoward if they could get him to sign an extension. ORL, just might go for it if they felt there were guys there that they want.

[Stix]

Houston doesn't seem in need of a center anymore. They have Dally backing up Camby. Camby said he would like to re-sign there, so unless he changes his mind, there isn't a need.

Why does a rebuild have to involve Gortat leaving? I don't see any picks that will be offered for him that will produce more than he does, and if they would, why the heck would a team trade that projected player? If picks were such a high priority for this FO, we wouldn't have shipped one out with Goran.

You do realize that Camby is Ancient right? Dally ain't getting any younger either...

We would be stupid not to shop Gortat, who seems to be our best asset, to get younger. A rebuild involves youth. Gortat's value is at an all-time high right now... and who knows if he really is that good or if he is just another product of Nash.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Houston doesn't seem in need of a center anymore. They have Dally backing up Camby. Camby said he would like to re-sign there, so unless he changes his mind, there isn't a need.

Why does a rebuild have to involve Gortat leaving?

I hear what you're saying man. The only reason I mentioned doing this trade is because the rockets still would like to really find a way to get dwight howard in a trade if possible rather than taking a chance he'll overlook them in free agency.


And with it being a somewhat well known fact of how badly magic fans would love to have gortat back(great guy! and fan favorite!) I personally feel that they would do this trade in order to put together a better package for orlando.


And I'm sure if you asked the magic contingent who they rather have coming back in a trade for howard, I'm sure they'd say gortat over dalembert or camby.I know they have a plethora of centers too,

But the principle idea would be for them to perhaps attain gortat(for dwight trade purposes), and then perhaps package him with either scola,or kevin martin,lowry(or whoever they still keep)sans suns trade, to give the magic some pretty good peices coming back.

I also agree with you that in the past they gave away picks for basically nothing! But back then we still had nash and were considered to be a playoff team.

Now with nash leaving (hypothetically of course)we need those young talented players on cheap rookie deals to start our rebuild! And getting these rookies on their cheap deals to help round out our roster, not only helps infuse our team with much needed youth and talent,
But most of all has minimal impact on our salary cap as well as giving us future building assets for the next big fee agency.

Finally, as I said before, I like gortat and what he brings, But I think even our front office realizes that he is our best and most valued trade chip, So with us not really contending very soon(barring a miracle!), We need to acquire more assets than what we currently possese on our roster while being frugal with our cap space(as babby mentioned).

And the best way to do that is young players on rookie deals where it gives us the leverage on how we use their contracts in bigger trades. Because ultimately due to cba restrictions and concerns, These rookie deals are likely to looked upon as pure gold to salary strapped teams.

This is the simplest way for us to maintain control of our options through our projected rebuild.(at least in my opinion).

[Ghost of Kleine]

Now here's another trade that I'm not sure many will like, BUT I basically did this trade to try and get the suns the later of new orleans lottery picks(minnesotas') projected around # 10 giving us an increased chance at being able to get lamb,lillard, or marshall, then get rivers, or whoever at #13.


Plus we dump childress's contract and gortat for emeka okafor. It's basically as 2 for 1 contract swap, as the contracts going out are equal salary wise to okafors' coming back in. And we get another lottery pick to boot.

Also, okafor is pretty good at the 4 defensively, and will become an expiring contract(comparable in value) to kamans' this year. A great loss in gortat, But A great gain in dumping childress contract, while acquiring the #10 pick to go along with our #13 pick.

And getting a very fundamentally sound power forward in okafor. then just amnesty warrick, and go from there. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=7f9uz9e.

Or here is an alternate for those who'd prefer to be able to keep gortat if possible-http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7en5v7f.

In this trade we give up both childress as well as dudley(sweetner)to match the contracts going out with what we're taking back, But they still end up saving another 2-3 million(plus the $ lottery pick) for being able to move okafors' contract(they can still bring back kaman cheaper) while getting a much better option at small forward defensively in dudley to make ariza expendable.


We take okafor back at no real detriment to us, And dump childress's contract along with dudley basically for the lottery pick.This allows us to keep gortat, while getting him a great defensive power forward to play next to,wich will help cover his athletic deficiencies.

Now I know these trades aren't that sexy on paper, But it's really more to set us up for the future with more assets.

[thamadkant]

Gortat has peaked.. With a lesser PG and system... He is a 10-11ppg 8-9rpg

Still good but not as valuable as he is now...

With Suns situation Gortat is better off as trade asset to get good young prospect and or lottery picks.
Without Nash Suns will be wasting Gortat similar to Hornets with Okafor and Kaman... Good big men better off on contending or playoff teams..

I feel Sund can cash in with Gortat high at the moment.

[thamadkant]

Gortat has peaked.. With a lesser PG and system... He is a 10-11ppg 8-9rpg

Still good but not as valuable as he is now...

With Suns situation Gortat is better off as trade asset to get good young prospect and or lottery picks.
Without Nash Suns will be wasting Gortat similar to Hornets with Okafor and Kaman... Good big men better off on contending or playoff teams..

I feel Suns can cash in with Gortat high at the moment.

[bwgood77]

Gortat has peaked.. With a lesser PG and system... He is a 10-11ppg 8-9rpg

Still good but not as valuable as he is now...

With Suns situation Gortat is better off as trade asset to get good young prospect and or lottery picks.
Without Nash Suns will be wasting Gortat similar to Hornets with Okafor and Kaman... Good big men better off on contending or playoff teams..

I feel Suns can cash in with Gortat high at the moment.

We don't know that Gortat has peaked. Our front office wants to keep Nash. They will not trade Gortat for picks because that would jeopardize their chance to re-sign Nash.

Now some seem to think or imply that Nash knows he is leaving and the Suns are going to proceed as if he is not coming back, but this is simply untrue. He very well may leave, but HE doesn't even know what his options might be and the Suns have made it clear they want him to stay.

Everyone with any sense in the matter KNOWS that the cards have to play out with Deron Williams first, and then that will set a domino effect in place that will determine who goes where after players like Nash, Dragic, Felton, Miller, etc.

Part of how free agency will play out also depends on how the lottery plays out, who drafts pgs in the draft, etc.

So, the draft has to play out, and free agency has to start before the Suns would even CONSIDER trading Gortat.

I think the only way Gortat gets traded at any point might be if Nash doesn't return, and the team gets off to a REALLY bad start next season. At that point it would make sense to trade Gortat for two reasons. To make our own pick in the NEXT YEAR's draft that much better and perhaps gain more picks or young talent.

But Sarver won't allow the front office to totally rebuild (and especially trade Gortat) until it is absolutely clear that Nash is gone. So that eliminates any chance of Gortat being traded for picks in THIS YEAR'S draft.

[Saberestar]

^
I completely agree.

[RunDogGun]

Houston doesn't seem in need of a center anymore. They have Dally backing up Camby. Camby said he would like to re-sign there, so unless he changes his mind, there isn't a need.

Why does a rebuild have to involve Gortat leaving? I don't see any picks that will be offered for him that will produce more than he does, and if they would, why the heck would a team trade that projected player? If picks were such a high priority for this FO, we wouldn't have shipped one out with Goran.

You do realize that Camby is Ancient right? Dally ain't getting any younger either...

We would be stupid not to shop Gortat, who seems to be our best asset, to get younger. A rebuild involves youth. Gortat's value is at an all-time high right now... and who knows if he really is that good or if he is just another product of Nash.

Camby is old, sure, but he isn't far off of his averages this past season, while playing six less minutes. So while you may just look at his age, others may look at what he produces. Plus they may get him for a cheap deal, while keeping ALL the assets they would have to give up for Gortat. So I don't see why they bite.

I hope the Suns listen to offers, but I really hope they aren't shopping Gortat. Our FO has a tendency to get lowballed, and take those offers when they are shopping.

[bwgood77]

Houston doesn't seem in need of a center anymore. They have Dally backing up Camby. Camby said he would like to re-sign there, so unless he changes his mind, there isn't a need.

Why does a rebuild have to involve Gortat leaving? I don't see any picks that will be offered for him that will produce more than he does, and if they would, why the heck would a team trade that projected player? If picks were such a high priority for this FO, we wouldn't have shipped one out with Goran.

You do realize that Camby is Ancient right? Dally ain't getting any younger either...

We would be stupid not to shop Gortat, who seems to be our best asset, to get younger. A rebuild involves youth. Gortat's value is at an all-time high right now... and who knows if he really is that good or if he is just another product of Nash.

Camby is old, sure, but he isn't far off of his averages this past season, while playing six less minutes. So while you may just look at his age, others may look at what he produces. Plus they may get him for a cheap deal, while keeping ALL the assets they would have to give up for Gortat. So I don't see why they bite.

I hope the Suns listen to offers, but I really hope they aren't shopping Gortat. Our FO has a tendency to get lowballed, and take those offers when they are shopping.

Although Babby has been known to fleece teams' with his negotiations. Most recent example I can think of his when he fleeced Sarver into Childress' contract when he was Childress' player agent. Maybe that is why Sarver hired him after he realized he got owned in those negotiations.

[RunDogGun]

I also agree with you that in the past they gave away picks for basically nothing! But back then we still had nash and were considered to be a playoff team.

Now with nash leaving (hypothetically of course)we need those young talented players on cheap rookie deals to start our rebuild! And getting these rookies on their cheap deals to help round out our roster, not only helps infuse our team with much needed youth and talent,
But most of all has minimal impact on our salary cap as well as giving us future building assets for the next big fee agency.

Sorry, but a ton of assumptions there to base a logical thought on for me. First, I know you know this, but the fans don't run the team. Second, wouldn't ORL want the assets given up for Gortat more than Gortat, if those assets are as good as you and others are projecting? And if not, why the f*ck would we give up Gortat for those assets?

As far as the first paragraph I quoted of yours, aren't you putting the cart before the horse? To get any draft picks from this year, we would have to know ahead of time that Nash will not return. It can't happen the other way around.
What if those young players turn out to be total crap? Then what? Will they be easy to move, and teams will be willing to give up good guys for them? Cory Brewer and Rudy Fernandez were had for a second round pick this past season. So two first rounders, one of which was a lotto pick were had for a measly second rounder. So, we could keep our current players, and search for teams strapped and get some young pieces for second rounders. I think that is the route this FO will take, we are finally in a position to rape other teams for a change.

[RunDogGun]

Camby is old, sure, but he isn't far off of his averages this past season, while playing six less minutes. So while you may just look at his age, others may look at what he produces. Plus they may get him for a cheap deal, while keeping ALL the assets they would have to give up for Gortat. So I don't see why they bite.
I hope the Suns listen to offers, but I really hope they aren't shopping Gortat. Our FO has a tendency to get lowballed, and take those offers when they are shopping.

Although Babby has been known to fleece teams' with his negotiations. Most recent example I can think of his when he fleeced Sarver into Childress' contract when he was Childress' player agent. Maybe that is why Sarver hired him after he realized he got owned in those negotiations.

I was referring to trading Goran for Brooks actually. If we were in a position of power(not shopping a guy), we wouldn't have needed to include a draft pick.

I still feel I have to see how well this FO drafts, before I want to see us gather draft picks. Morris has done alright, but it wasn't like we found a Kobe at #13. Now if we had kept the ORL pick and they had drafted both Morris and MBrooks, then maybe I would feel comfortable with this FO to draft decent players. But for now, one ok pick isn't a big enough sample for me.

[bwgood77]

Camby is old, sure, but he isn't far off of his averages this past season, while playing six less minutes. So while you may just look at his age, others may look at what he produces. Plus they may get him for a cheap deal, while keeping ALL the assets they would have to give up for Gortat. So I don't see why they bite.
I hope the Suns listen to offers, but I really hope they aren't shopping Gortat. Our FO has a tendency to get lowballed, and take those offers when they are shopping.

Although Babby has been known to fleece teams' with his negotiations. Most recent example I can think of his when he fleeced Sarver into Childress' contract when he was Childress' player agent. Maybe that is why Sarver hired him after he realized he got owned in those negotiations.

I was referring to trading Goran for Brooks actually. If we were in a position of power(not shopping a guy), we wouldn't have needed to include a draft pick.

I still feel I have to see how well this FO drafts, before I want to see us gather draft picks. Morris has done alright, but it wasn't like we found a Kobe at #13. Now if we had kept the ORL pick and they had drafted both Morris and MBrooks, then maybe I would feel comfortable with this FO to draft decent players. But for now, one ok pick isn't a big enough sample for me.

Yeah, in retrospect, it doesn't look like the Dragic deal was a good one. But part of the reason Goran blossomed this season was because he got to play with a first unit, which, for a pg, will typically help you out by having better players to finish with, etc (for most positions it would be easier to inflate stats playing against second units, but the opposite is true for pgs).

And Houston was also ready to include him in the botched trade for Gasol, and also let Lin get away, so I really think it is more difficult to assess a pg's value until they get that opportunity to start.

I trust Blanks with the draft though, because he came up as a scout, and was the Spurs lead scout when they took Tony Parker and Luis Scola both at 28.

And Babby is probably a better negotiater than most GMs, as I've read that most GMs (especially ex players) aren't nearly as good at negotiating as agents are, and obviously Babby was an agent.

Overall, for me, the jury is still out on this front office, but I do like what I hear when they talk about preserving cap space and not just spending it to spend it (this is one thing that bothered me at times with the Colangelos....like when they signed Googs and Longley when McDyess bolted when they could have waited to find something better).

But much of the draft ends up being luck as well. I just hope they don't hamper us with more long term contracts for guys that are no better than bench players (for example, there is WAY too much talk about signing Hickson on this board....he is EXACTLY the type of player we DO NOT need to waste money on).

Unfortunately, for the front office, they came on board right after we committed long term money to a bunch of players that are probably better 2nd unit players (Childress, Warrick, Frye, Dudley) so they have been kind of hamstrung since the beginning, which, in many fans eyes, will allow that to play a part in their feelings about how well the FO is doing.

[RunDogGun]

But wasn't Babby on Chilldress's side to get him that contract? So for me, the trust thing is still not there yet.

As for Googs, he was playing great before we picked him up, and played pretty well that first season with us. There was no way of knowing he would have that injury issue hinder him, after playing well.

And we traded three players and a draft pick to get Longley.

[Ghost of Kleine]

You guys are all right! Everything up until "the nash decision" is gonna be assumptions,But then again,just every now and then, people slip up and show their hands. Nash may just be doing a very good job of postering,

But I tend to believe he along with the suns front office know full well what to expect! Just look at the writing on the wall.Nash says make major improvements or I'm gone.Then babby goes on record to say that they're gonna try really hard to bring nash back, But there are many considerations that have to go right for that to happen!

He also preaches patience(sounds like a rebuild to me) and then says they may not use hardly any of the cap space they've accumulated this year,Who exactly are they gonna bring in to convince nash to stay,if they aren't likely to spend the necessary money ?

Do we really think nash will cave in to sarver and say o.k.! I know I may have at best only 2-3 years left in this league,I'll wait And hope for the best!

This is just nashs' way of letting the fans down gently and not being the bad guy,And the front offices way of looking like they tried.

Bottomline, both the front office as well as nash know that it would be much easier to tempt a big name player here if he was assured that nash will resign.And the suns more than have the resources to do it too! So why the postering? Why plant more roots elsewhere?(toronto).

Simply because he knows where he plans on going! He's had quite a long time to think about this, And deep down, we all know this to be true and eventual,Wether we accept it or not.

If he was really coming back, He could've just resigned!And even given himself a player option for next season as an out if he didn't like how things are going.It just is what it is!

[bwgood77]

But wasn't Babby on Chilldress's side to get him that contract? So for me, the trust thing is still not there yet.

As for Googs, he was playing great before we picked him up, and played pretty well that first season with us. There was no way of knowing he would have that injury issue hinder him, after playing well.

And we traded three players and a draft pick to get Longley.

Are you POSITIVE we traded for Longley? I could have sworn we signed him for like 6/35 or something like that and felt at the time that Divac would be much better for us and I think he signed for like 3/10 for Sac and obviously ended up being MUCH better for them than Longley was for us. I'm pretty sure I would remember trading for Longley as I have been hugely vested in this team's every move for years.

[bwgood77]

You guys are all right! Everything up until "the nash decision" is gonna be assumptions,But then again,just every now and then, people slip up and show their hands. Nash may just be doing a very good job of postering,

But I tend to believe he along with the suns front office know full well what to expect! Just look at the writing on the wall.Nash says make major improvements or I'm gone.Then babby goes on record to say that they're gonna try really hard to bring nash back, But there are many considerations that have to go right for that to happen!

He also preaches patience(sounds like a rebuild to me) and then says they may not use hardly any of the cap space they've accumulated this year,Who exactly are they gonna bring in to convince nash to stay,if they aren't likely to spend the necessary money ?

Do we really think nash will cave in to sarver and say o.k.! I know I may have at best only 2-3 years left in this league,I'll wait And hope for the best!

This is just nashs' way of letting the fans down gently and not being the bad guy,And the front offices way of looking like they tried.

Bottomline, both the front office as well as nash know that it would be much easier to tempt a big name player here if he was assured that nash will resign.And the suns more than have the resources to do it too! So why the postering? Why plant more roots elsewhere?(toronto).

Simply because he knows where he plans on going! He's had quite a long time to think about this, And deep down, we all know this to be true and eventual,Wether we accept it or not.

If he was really coming back, He could've just resigned!And even given himself a player option for next season as an out if he didn't like how things are going.It just is what it is!

Well, for example, if I was Babby I would tell Nash we will make a run for Gordon (who is exactly the type of player Nash wants around) and ask Nash if that would be enough for him to re-sign. Now Nash probably wouldn't completely commit before seeing all of his options, and obviously the Hornets can match, so he can't commit, not knowing how it would play out.

Babby can't guarantee anything because we don't know what free agents will decide (if we make them an offer) or if teams will match any offer for a restricted free agent. The fact that he says things along the lines of "we aren't just going to spend money to spend it, and if we can't get the big names we want, we may hang onto the cap space" is good news to me, because after Gordon, there really aren't many (if any) major impact players in free agency that could possibly keep Nash around.

Next summer Griffin and Paul are both free agents and for all we know, they may want to get the heck out of Clipper land because they can't stand their coach/owner/supporting players, etc.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Sorry, but a ton of assumptions there to base a logical thought on for me. First, I know you know this, but the fans don't run the team. Second, wouldn't ORL want the assets given up for Gortat more than Gortat, if those assets are as good as you and others are projecting? And if not, why the f*ck would we give up Gortat for those assets?

I know man, But the fans are the ones who buy the tickets! And thusly magic ownership would do well to at least try and keep the fans somewhat happy,considering the imminent departure of dwight!Secondly,wouldn't they want proven and established players before unknown commodities?

A deal bringing back proven commodities in scola,gortat,etc. For a player in howard that they'd be losing anyways,would be better than just waiting out the time it takes for rookie players to develop right?Not to mention how valuable a fan favorite can be to the revenue of a soon to be struggling franchise?(ie.nash,lou,etc)it's all important to revenue and fan interest too.

As far as the first paragraph I quoted of yours, aren't you putting the cart before the horse? To get any draft picks from this year, we would have to know ahead of time that Nash will not return. It can't happen the other way around.

Perhaps,But has nayone considered that maybe! hjust maybe! that's the message to be taken from all these little side stories filled with info. meant to misdirect or keep the fanbase guessing?

Either way,Nash career with us will soon becoming to and end! And I'd rather have a front office that's proactive in such matters rather than just sitting and waiting for something to hopefully fall into their laps you know?

It's always better to have a contingency plan in effect rather than just hope upon hope. And history with this franchises' front office has shown us the folly of sitting and waiting more than once! In the end, "no guts no glory!"

What if those young players turn out to be total crap? Then what? Will they be easy to move, and teams will be willing to give up good guys for them?

And what if they aren't? That is what scouting is for! As everyone has said on here before,you can still get great value outside of the lottery. And I think we can all say our scouting staff has done o.k. so far in that department presently.

Also, If they are rookie contracts, that's far easier to move,as other teams would just cite a possible need for change of scenery for that player to be productive!etc. etc. Happens all the time right?

And I think they would be willing to give up good guys for them If those guys happen to be on slightly larger or longer contracts than our rookie deal players! Everyone wants value with this new cba.And young unproven players on cheap rookie deals always seem to have value to some team.

Cory Brewer and Rudy Fernandez were had for a second round pick this past season. So two first rounders, one of which was a lotto pick were had for a measly second rounder.

I believe they were given up for that price tag for no other reason than to facilitate a potential trade right? so there are many ways to facilitate our needs with the right assets.

I think that is the route this FO will take, we are finally in a position to **** other teams for a change.

I really hope so! But it doesn't sound good when babby first says they could take back a large contract in a lopsided trade in order to get the player they want. Then soon after he says they most likely may not spend hardly any of their cap space this coming offseason?

Well??? Wich one is it? How can you take a large contract player back if you don't intend to use hardly any of your cap space? It sounds to me like they rather hold onto that money(for sarver) rebuild cheaply through the draft,And just play it by ear from there!

[Ghost of Kleine]

Well, for example, if I was Babby I would tell Nash we will make a run for Gordon (who is exactly the type of player Nash wants around) and ask Nash if that would be enough for him to re-sign. Now Nash probably wouldn't completely commit before seeing all of his options, and obviously the Hornets can match, so he can't commit, not knowing how it would play out.

Exactly my point.They could've been doing this the whole time right?So why keep nash guessing IF there was a plan?And if there was any semblance of a workable solution to this being developed, then why was there the need for nash to make his ultimatum public?

You see it can obviously work both ways can't it? Do we really believe nash will choose to wait until near the end of free agency(or as long as it takes)till we explore all options, And how would we sell gordon on coming here without nash being locked in beforehand? Especially when we can't outbid them,and just lure him here with more money?

Nash is the draw for our franchise! and wich big names free agents will want to come here if he's not already resigned? Are we to just assume nash will sit it out and wait? Burning another year off the few he has left?He himself said that he expects changes before he comes back?

So IF we wait and hold onto our how do we accomodate his ultimatum? Answer is we don't! Sarver and babby know this,That's why they emphasize patience. And holding onto their cap space.I personally don't see nash just waiting around his last few years in the league to see if they can find the right fit financially!

The fact that he says things along the lines of "we aren't just going to spend money to spend it, and if we can't get the big names we want, we may hang onto the cap space" is good news to me, because after Gordon, there really aren't many (if any) major impact players in free agency that could possibly keep Nash around.

Exactly my point again! They(suns front office know already)that there isn't really any legitimate big name player that they can bring in to satiate nashs' desires to stay! Sooo they talk of patience,getting younger and more athletic!,not spending just to spend!(meaning sarver pockets savings this year)And let's nash walk.

Because as they said, "it's highly likely they won't use hardly any of their capspace this year" So once again I ask??? Whos' coming here to get nash to stay? IF we aren't commited to paying for them?

Nash fully understands this as well,that's why he's rebuilding his roots back home where he grew up mostly.He's going back home where he will be adored and revered! And not underappreciated and used as a revenue ploy by ownership.

Next summer Griffin and Paul are both free agents and for all we know, they may want to get the heck out of Clipper land because they can't stand their coach/owner/supporting players, etc.

[/quote]

They are still in the playoffs for the first time in how many years? And set to likely replace the lakers as the dominant team in cali! So why would they suddenly want to just break up that much success?

I definitely don't think they'd choose a team like us,in a enevitable rebuilding phase over a deep playoff contending team that they have now? But only time will tell i guess.

[bwgood77]

Ghost, you act as if the front office has a crystal ball on what free agents will decide on where to sign. My guess is that they will make a run for Gordon (if past injuries don't scare them off) but they fully expect NO to match, so that is why they say it is more than likely that they won't spend all of their cap space.

They probably have the same questions you do....like about why would someone come here if they don't know if Nash will be here and why will Nash re-sign without knowing if a player will come. That is why it HAS to play out.

It's a guessing game almost as much for Nash and the front office as it is for all of us as to how the lottery/draft/free agency chips will fall and no one will no for sure until things start playing out.

For all we know, the front office has a plan where if they can get Gordon, they will definitely try and keep Nash, but if not, they will move to plan b and let Nash go. Or maybe they will attempt to go with the sr citizen team and go after Ray Allen and KG like many here have suggested.

They aren't really allowed to talk about other team's players and who they want to sign right now so we just have to wait it out.