KOC as Utah Jazz General Manager

Post #1 » by **FJS** » Thu May 10, 2012 7:51 pm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/exe ... ke99x.html

This is the list the all the move KOC has done for us.

He has drafted pretty good players.
Most of them not played well for us, like Stevenson, Humprhies or Mo Williams, but they were good players.
Brewer, Deron Williams, Matthews were great picks.

Hayward, Kanter and Burks look good.

Then he has signed as Free agents players like Harpring, Boozer, Okur.
He signed Terry and Brand, but they were matched for their teams.

And he has made some great trades.

What are your favorites moves by KOC?

Do you think he will be able to improve our team enough to make next year the 2nd round?

The59Sound · Post #2 » by **The59Sound** » Thu May 10, 2012 9:18 pm

Deron trade may be the best the team has ever pulled off. Only competition that I can think of is Jeff Hornacek for Jeff Malone and Dominique Wilkins for cash (just because it kept the franchise from folding).

red4hf · Post #3 » by **red4hf** » Thu May 10, 2012 11:10 pm

When did he sign Brand? Did you mean Maggette?

blackham9258 · Post #4 » by **blackham9258** » Fri May 11, 2012 2:36 am

Brand signed his offer sheet with Miami, and I don't think Maggette signed with us either? Can someone recollect.

Post #5 » by **FJS** » Fri May 11, 2012 2:39 am

you're right, it was maggette

UTJazzFan_Echo1 · Post #6 » by **UTJazzFan_Echo1** » Fri May 11, 2012 6:09 pm

The Deron Williams trade was legendary stuff.

His trade for Korver is very underrated. Same with the signings of Boozer and Memo.

His drafting of Paul Millsap in the 2nd round and trading up to get Deron are his two best pickups via the draft.

awesomator · Post #7 » by **awesomator** » Fri May 11, 2012 6:55 pm

Can we stop with the KOC love fest?! If you want to praise him for his good moves you need to at least acknowledge his many bad moves.... Amongst others:

2001 - Drafted Raul Lopez over Tony Parker
2004 - Drafted Kris Humpries and Kirk "Crazyman" Snyder over Al Jefferson and Josh Smith
2007 - Drafted Mo Nuts Over Aaron Afflalo, Aaron Brooks, Tiago Splitter

Signed John Amechi.
Signed Carlos Arroyo.
Signed Ronnie Price.
Signed Raja Bell.

Didn't match offer on Mo Williams.
Didn't match offer on Wesley Matthews.

Traded for Rafael Araujo.
Traded away Eric Maynor for nothing.
Traded away Deron Williams - I know lots of people are still drinking the Kool-Aid on this one, so whatever, I call it a minus.

He also thinks players who hustle are more important than players who can shoot...

Deinonychus · Post #8 » by **Deinonychus** » Fri May 11, 2012 8:09 pm

awesomator wrote:Can we stop with the KOC love fest?! If you want to praise him for his good moves you need to at least acknowledge his many bad moves.... Amongst others:

2001 - Drafted Raul Lopez over Tony Parker
2004 - Drafted Kris Humpries and Kirk "Crazyman" Snyder over Al Jefferson and Josh Smith
2007 - Drafted Mo Nuts Over Aaron Afflalo, Aaron Brooks, Tiago Splitter

Signed John Amechi.
Signed Carlos Arroyo.
Signed Ronnie Price.
Signed Raja Bell.

Didn't match offer on Mo Williams.
Didn't match offer on Wesley Matthews.

Traded for Rafael Araujo.
Traded away Eric Maynor for nothing.
Traded away Deron Williams - I know lots of people are still drinking the Kool-Aid on this one, so whatever, I call it a minus.

He also thinks players who hustle are more important than players who can shoot...

Of course he's made bad moves as well, you could make a similar list for any GM that has been in the NBA for more than a few years. The fact of the matter is, KOC has done a very good job considering he works for a small-market team on a budget, and rarely gets to draft in the high lottery because the team has a winning tradition.

red4hf · Post #9 » by **red4hf** » Fri May 11, 2012 11:50 pm

awesomator wrote:Can we stop with the KOC love fest?! If you want to praise him for his good moves you need to at least acknowledge his many bad moves.... Amongst others:

2001 - Drafted Raul Lopez over Tony Parker
2004 - Drafted Kris Humpries and Kirk "Crazyman" Snyder over Al Jefferson and Josh Smith
2007 - Drafted Mo Nuts Over Aaron Afflalo, Aaron Brooks, Tiago Splitter

Signed John Amechi.
Signed Carlos Arroyo.
Signed Ronnie Price.
Signed Raja Bell.

Didn't match offer on Mo Williams.
Didn't match offer on Wesley Matthews.

Traded for Rafael Araujo.
Traded away Eric Maynor for nothing.
Traded away Deron Williams - I know lots of people are still drinking the Kool-Aid on this one, so whatever, I call it a minus.

He also thinks players who hustle are more important than players who can shoot...

Some of his picks were defnitely bad, but Humphries, Mo Williams and Raul Lopez were not among them...... Trading away Maynor was also not his decision, it was made by the owner...... Same thing with not matching the sheet for Matthews (which was actually a right decision).....

countrybama24 · Post #10 » by **countrybama24** » Sat May 12, 2012 5:49 pm

I think KOC is a great GM. I think Greg Miller is a poor owner (i.e. makes KOC too conservative with financial constraints / short-term focus). I could be wrong, but my bet is that KOC is operating under some financial constraints larger markets or wealthier owners wouldn't place upon him. I just think the decision to not do a full rebuild was completely illogical from any basketball standpoint, but made a lot of sense financially.

But hey, they'll keep the Jazz here. So thats the price we pay for being a small market without a billionaire owner I guess.

countrybama24 · Post #11 » by **countrybama24** » Sat May 12, 2012 5:59 pm

awesomator wrote:2001 - Drafted Raul Lopez over Tony Parker
2004 - Drafted Kris Humpries and Kirk "Crazyman" Snyder over Al Jefferson and Josh Smith
2007 - Drafted Mo Nuts Over Aaron Afflalo, Aaron Brooks, Tiago Splitter

You can do this with any GM in the league. Except maybe Sam Presti, but the durant pick was a no brainer, he's only been in the league 4 years, and top 5 picks are easier to nail than mid-lottery picks (EX: Cole Aldrich).

Also many of those are influenced by the owner, since you can't take as many financial risks taking high school players for example (IE Al, Josh Smith). Also no one saw Tony Parker, so he's just as bad as 26 other GMs who passed on him.

I don't think KOC is an "elite" GM, but he's pretty good (top third, maybe top quartile).

The only miss i'm really pissed about was Kosta Koufos being drafted one spot before Ibaka. We KNEW we needed an athletic shot blocker to complement Boozer / Okur, DX had him pegged as a lottery pick and he went in the mid-twenties (so he wasn't completely under the radar). We just have a natural disposition towards taking "polished" players which means we'll never get the upside of raw prospects like westbrook, ibaka, etc etc. Thats why we took Hayward over George. Thats why we took Kanter I think, because we thought he was much more skilled than Jonas and didn't have the same bust potential because of his strength. But I don't think he has the same upside. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Jonas is better, I'm just saying that was likely our logic, and I think it's undeniable the more athletic prospect usually has a higher upside, just often a lower floor (i.e. perry jones).

Post #12 » by **StocktonShorts** » Sat May 12, 2012 7:53 pm

What do you mean no one saw Tony Parker? The Jazz worked him out twice IIRC. Clearly San Antonio saw something in him.

Of all the moves listed this is the one that burns me the most, because the Jazz wanted a point guard, worked him out and then passed on him; it felt like the Jazz were being cheap, going with the guy they could keep overseas for one more year.

MeestR · Post #13 » by **MeestR** » Sat May 12, 2012 8:14 pm

countrybama24 wrote:I think KOC is a great GM. I think Greg Miller is a poor owner (i.e. makes KOC too conservative with financial constraints / short-term focus). I could be wrong, but my bet is that KOC is operating under some financial constraints larger markets or wealthier owners wouldn't place upon him. I just think the decision to not do a full rebuild was completely illogical from any basketball standpoint, but made a lot of sense financially.

But hey, they'll keep the Jazz here. So thats the price we pay for being a small market without a billionaire owner I guess.

i disagree with the bolded part. since greg miller took over, i think we are gradually seeing KOC's team, and less of the Miller's team. KOC's moves the last couple years have had their own personality compared to previous years. he is still conservative, but i dont think greg influences the team to the same degree larry did. KOC seems to have a little bit more free reign to do his moves or not-moves. this is more of a "kevin"-style team and less of a "miller"-style team, i think.

countrybama24 · Post #14 » by **countrybama24** » Sat May 12, 2012 8:21 pm

I don't really see a difference. Our recent moves have been in the same vein of safe, stability oriented decisions aimed at ensuring a baseline of success by hedging our risks.

The Dwill trade ultimately a conservative, safe move. We traded the upside of having a superstar for the certainty of having many solid pieces, one of which may turn out to be really good. Keeping him was risky, trading him brought stability.

Kanter draft pick, doesn't seem much different. Burks, I was surprised with, but it's not like he's a raw athletic freak or anything, we took a skilled 2 guard who could create off the dribble, something we desperately needed. Your hunch may be correct, but I don't see any real shift in our strategy, ESPECIALLY the decision to not do a full rebuild (which imo is the biggest indicator of GM / Owner strategy). Although I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when they were debating these moves.

I hope you're right though.

reapaman · Post #15 » by **reapaman** » Sat May 12, 2012 10:54 pm

Well I personally think our front office is horrible and clueless. Take this past year for example. You draft two raw rookies that will take years to develop (neither that currently solve our immediate needs even burks) yet you don't do a full rebuild. You keep a rookie coach who has to learn on the job plus use your cap space to sign a bum (howard) and trade Okur for nothing. Despite all this, the team does well (mostly taking advantage of the lockout situation) and instead of making moves to improve our weaknesses before the trade deadline, they do nothing. So we get into the playoffs and get slaughtered by the Spurs. So now our veteran trading assets are on expiring deals w/o options and I can't remember the last time any team got any good value for a pure expiring contract without including something else of good value(and no gerald wallace doesn't count). And no bird rights are not good enough because your still taking a huge risk that they could easily leave.

So now barring a miracle in the draft lottery selection, we will have no draft picks and probley will be either forced to keep our veterans or probabley give them up for far deminished value. Plus the pick protections next year are virtually the same as this year and GS's hope of improve relys on injury prone players, so we could very well miss out on our picks next year if we even sniff the playoffs. This in addition to the draft likely being much weaker next year.

Mabey our outlook isn't as bleak as I'm epressing it is but it would make alot more sense to pick one direction.

MeestR · Post #16 » by **MeestR** » Sun May 13, 2012 2:14 am

i still dont think he is doing the best in the league. but i think i can see more of koc's personality the last couple years. it may be a good thing, but more likely will be a slightly better than mediocre thing.

since stockton and malone left the team, it seems KOC has only tried to achieve a B+, which is about what he got with dwill/booz/ak/memo teams. this team probably wont do much different unless something big changes. greg is the biggest change. and he is more of a "stand off and delegate" type leader rather than a "keep close eye to be sure every move is the correct one" type of leader. i think larry may have been more of the latter.

maybe with greg at the helm, KOC won't be quite as conservative? last years moves looked a lot different than previous years moves to me. ---- the dwill trade was a risky move that i dont think would have happened under LHM. same with the howard and tinsley signings. as well as letting price go. bell has got to change, i dont think any management personnel can affect that. maybe a millsap/lottery trade is a risky move that we normally wouldn't see? or something else the fans wont see coming?

i think the far more likely scenario that will show us the kind of personality that is still at the helm is a trade that may benefit the immediate future, but will benefit the far future. like a al or devin trade for a player to be released, with a pick in this years draft and another pick in a couple few years. this seems like the kind of move that would be just enough to not get fired and sell enough tickets, but wont quite win multiple playoff series. this is the kind of gm i believe KOC is.

Hikari · Post #17 » by **Hikari** » Sun May 13, 2012 2:41 am

The Lopez/Parker comparison is crazy. Lopez was considered the better product at draft time (By many more than the Jazz). ALL and I mean ALL of his health problems came after he was drafted. I don't blame anyone or anything but bad luck on that one.

eLo · Post #18 » by **eLo** » Sun May 13, 2012 7:24 pm

His best move was not signing any distance shooter for 2 years :-?

our 10/11 misery was caused by O'Connors bad summer moves, it's not like i'm saying he is terrible/bad GM i just simply dont understand all that applause for his work

Ugly0598 · Post #19 » by **Ugly0598** » Sun May 13, 2012 9:05 pm

eLo wrote:His best move was not signing any distance shooter for 2 years our 10/11 misery was caused by O'Connors bad summer moves, it's not like i'm saying he is terrible/bad GM i just simply dont understand all that applause for his work

He did. He signed Raja and expected him to play a lot better after those injuries he had before he signed the contract (aka the KOC "moneyball" that people have referred the Bell and Howard signings to).

I'm pretty sure KOC couldn't do much in 10-11 because he was stuck with AK, Okur's bad contracts.

Post #20 » by **StocktonShorts** » Sun May 13, 2012 10:02 pm

UtahJazzFan88 wrote:
eLo wrote:His best move was not signing any distance shooter for 2 years our 10/11 misery was caused by O'Connors bad summer moves, it's not like i'm saying he is terrible/bad GM i just simply dont understand all that applause for his work

He did. He signed Raja and expected him to play a lot better after those injuries he had before he signed the contract (aka the KOC "moneyball" that people have referred the Bell and Howard signings to).

I'm pretty sure KOC couldn't do much in 10-11 because he was stuck with AK, Okur's bad contracts.

And who signed Okur to that extension?