Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls?

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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#401 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 6:53 am

Rerisen wrote:This isn't including game 1 right? Rose played till the last minute in game 1. We should only look at what the model expects in the last 5 games without Rose vs reality.


Why do you think that the smaller sample is telling us more? We have Rose included in the calculation for his 37 minutes. The way you are looking at it it seems like Rose was alone responsible for the win in game 1. Do you honestly believe that? Do you think Rose' defense would have made a difference to the 76ers making a whole lot of more shots in game 2?

If we want to make a prediction for game 6 (a bet), which dataset would you have used? Only the 4 games without Rose or all games without Rose including the 27 regular season games? I would for sure have used all available data.

Btw, the SRS calculation is off, it really predicted +1.2, which is in the range of the RAPM and SPM.

Rose is +3.5 in RAPM, + 5.2 in my SPM.

Rerisen wrote:I'm just saying, specific to the Chicago Bulls, when you remove Derrick Rose, you are going to get worse results than for most teams removing most players in pressure situations where the team needs to score.


We talked about that and the numbers are showing the same, no idea, what else is there to discuss?


Btw, did anyone saw the game on February 1st when the Bulls played the 76ers while having Rose in the lineup and no Deng? Just asking, because somehow I think most people didn't saw that game. And now people are predicting easy wins with Rose and without Deng/Noah? Seriously, that is just big joke.


EarlTheGoat wrote:Maybe its time for some of you to question the prediction methods of your formulas instead of trying to pretend none of what happened actually counts, because that is pretty laughable.


Why? I understand variance and thus I know those predictions are not entirely accurate. BUT the prediction based on that beats out gut feeling by a lot.

And again, the Bulls offense was predicted by the numbers to go down without Rose. No idea, but where in hell did someone say that the Bulls would be fine without Rose offensively. Heck, the overall impact by Rose is making the difference between a good playoff team and a strong contender. That is a HUGE impact, that's what the numbers are telling us. Well, when you have a struggling Deng due to a wrist injury and Noah being out with an injury, you may as well expect a weaker overall performance. Since the wrist injury occured to Deng, he made around 1 points less impact than before, and most of that were actually on the defensive end.

Anyway, all that does not tell us that Rose is in average more impactful than Deng.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#402 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 6:59 am

DavidStern wrote:How exactly this calculation should be made?


I made a prediction based on all games, not just on the last game. In fact, it was a prediction based on the informations we had before the game even occured.

DavidStern wrote:What I'm missing here?


Devide the sum by the minutes (48), which makes +5.1 for the Bulls and +5.4 for the 76ers. We add the HCA of 3 and we have the 76ers win by +3.3. For that specific game the minutes distribution even said that the 76ers were stronger.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#403 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 7:01 am

ElGee wrote:Why isn't the end of the 3rd quarter high pressure?.


I don't know. Tell me why the Bulls won the series without Rose through 3 quarters and lost in the 4th's by an average of 5 points.

Defense gets more intense? The refs *let* the defense get more physical, call less fouls?

Tell me why offense so fundamentally change in 4th quarters, and becomes so isolation heavy, or at least dominated usage wise by star players.

In Game 2, yes the Bulls collapse was in Q3. That to me makes it even more telling that despite that -21 they still won the games through 3 quarters, but got crushed in the 4ths.

I don't know why people would refuse to believe that pressure can affect human beings though.

After game 5 of this series, there were all kinds of calls in local Chicago radio about how the team had been sucking at Free Throws, and how Asik sucks at them particularly. The Bulls beat writer was addressing these questions, and said that Omer Asik, and the other failing Bulls, knock Free Throws down far far better in practice every single day, every practice. That Omer can't do it in games, how in the heck is that not pressure related. No one is guarding him!

I remember watching the silly Sprint Horse contest on this board, and everyone being amazed as Rajon Rondo sunk like 10 straight three pointers in a row vs Durant. My guess, Rondo can do that all the time in practice. But he certainly can't do it in NBA games, even among only his wide open shots. Now this isn't the same thing as Free Throws of course, as in the act of a game, you still have a defender scrambling to get out to you, but I think these examples should show that there is most definitely mysterious pressure elements at work when you get in front of those 20,000 people.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#404 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 7:04 am

mysticbb wrote:Why do you think that the smaller sample is telling us more?


Because the objective in the thread is Deng's value, but quickly morphed into Rose's as well, even individually.

It is about that far more than the Bulls in total as a team, how good they were regular season vs playoff.

So considering the Bulls won the 'with Rose' game by 12 points, you could just humor me and tell me what the spread in the last 5 games was expected by RAPM without Rose (and of course Noah for the games he missed) and how far off it was from what happened.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#405 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 7:16 am

Oh... since the season for Deng and Rose is now done, I would also be curious if Doc MJ ever did 'come down off the ledge' at all? :)

If there is any true reason for him to come off the ledge (opinions may differ) then they have probably been touched on *somewhere* in this thread in a way that is cogent.

If he has found no worthy reasons, then I believe it is actually impossible to talk to him off said ledge, as what put him out there is something seen as unassailable in the first place, except by further evidence of the exact same type but that is in opposition to what put him out on the ledge. And that evidence actually will not be able to built except with more games and minutes, such as next year, etc.

In my opinion, the best answers were spun around as early as page 3.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#406 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 7:21 am

Rerisen wrote:So considering the Bulls won the 'with Rose' game by 12 points, you could just humor me and tell me what the spread in the last 5 games was expected by RAPM without Rose (and of course Noah for the games he missed) and how far off it was from what happened.


+0.6 with RAPM, -0.2 with SPM, it was -4.4.

But then again, would you have expected Rose to be the defensive factor in order to make the 76ers shoot worse in game 2? Do you think that Rose was the lonely reason why the Bulls won game 1? +6 of that game was achieved during the 10 minutes with Watson instead of Rose. Do you think that this was caused by Rose? No idea, taking everything into account, we should get better informations when looking at all games. Game 2 was obviously a fluke, because the 76ers were not even close to repeat that kind of shooting in any other games.

We can also take out game 2 and end up with the expectation for the last 4 at -0.5, while it was -1.3. So, what exactly does that show us?


And again, what is with that game on February 1st? Should we rely on this alone in order to make a judgement about Rose' impact? Or do we ignore this, because we just assume the Bulls didn't want to win that game at all?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#407 » by Regulio » Fri May 11, 2012 7:22 am

Rerisen, quality posts, I agree 100% with you.
Rose is the best and the most valuable player on those Bulls and if some stat shows otherwise there is a problem with that statistic.
And yes, player psychology has a huge influence on game and crunch time is crucial.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#408 » by ElGee » Fri May 11, 2012 7:22 am

Rerisen wrote:
ElGee wrote:Why isn't the end of the 3rd quarter high pressure?.


I don't know. Tell me why the Bulls won the series without Rose through 3 quarters and lost in the 4th's by an average of 5 points.

Defense gets more intense? The refs *let* the defense get more physical, call less fouls?

Tell me why offense so fundamentally change in 4th quarters, and becomes so isolation heavy, or at least dominated usage wise by star players.

In Game 2, yes the Bulls collapse was in Q3. That to me makes it even more telling that despite that -21 they still won the games through 3 quarters, but got crushed in the 4ths.

I don't know why people would refuse to believe that pressure can affect human beings though.

After game 5 of this series, there were all kinds of calls in local Chicago radio about how the team had been sucking at Free Throws, and how Asik sucks at them particularly. The Bulls beat writer was addressing these questions, and said that Omer Asik, and the other failing Bulls, knock Free Throws down far far better in practice every single day, every practice. That Omer can't do it in games, how in the heck is that not pressure related. No one is guarding him!

I remember watching the silly Sprint Horse contest on this board, and everyone being amazed as Rajon Rondo sunk like 10 straight three pointers in a row vs Durant. My guess, Rondo can do that all the time in practice. But he certainly can't do it in NBA games, even among only his wide open shots. Now this isn't the same thing as Free Throws of course, as in the act of a game, you still have a defender scrambling to get out to you, but I think these examples should show that there is most definitely mysterious pressure elements at work when you get in front of those 20,000 people.


There's no need to misrepresent my stance here and act like I'm ignoring the human element when I'm actually focussing on it. It's just the factors most people attribute are, literally, made up. They are just guesses, or personal extrapolations. Some are right, many are wrong.

Free throw shooting? Is it harder at home or away? Most people would say away because of the road crowd. Turns out, over an enormous sample, road teams shot better (statistical significance).

My next blog post is on why offenses become so star-usage heavy and why people think it's a good thing. The short answer here: it's risk-averse to go one-on-one with a high-paid star. It's easy. People perceive a pressure and succumb to it and develop a poor strategy. They also launch a disproportionate load of 3's at a frighteningly poor conversion rate when they fall behind in the last few minutes. It's not really a good strategy, but humans aren't always that smart. And I'm guessing not many people knew this happened - even NBA coaches. (Some may even want to limit such "get-it-back-now" shots).

What evidence do you have that the refs call less fouls?? Free throws shooting goes way up at the end of games.

The biggest difference in practice for me as an athlete and what I've seen in other fields is fatigue. Rondo's form is horrible. When he's rested in practice, his muscle memory action is different. He will neuro-muscularly compensate for his bad form by adjusting the proper ratio of legs and elbow and wrist. In the game, when his heart rate is 160 and his brain starving for oxygen, the communication on those adjustments isn't as good. My guess is if you asked these players like Rondo and Shaq ("I can make em in practice") as the ball was in the air if they thought it was going in, but never showed them the result, their answers would be nearly identical in practice vs game settings. In other words, they aren't being doomed in by a psychological failure, but a physical one.

Pressure is real. But the psycho-analytical pressure that most people speak of -- which is uber-ironic since most people are oblivious to the way the brain works -- is often heavily overstated. Do you think an athlete who has spent 4 years playing on TV every night and in front of 15k crazed locals feels pressure in his first NBA game? Yes, that's normal for most not to able to have Zen moments a 22. But the pressure usually won't affect their adrenaline beyond the first few minutes. Acting like these guys have huge shifts in performance is crazy, especially if they are heavily into the game -- there's no darn time to think about the pressure (countless ex-athletes talk about this, because it's a very real psychological thing). Shooting free throws at the end of games is brutal pressure in basketball because your mind can become your enemy...and yet no one seems to have huge shifts in their numbers, even if they occasional "choke" on the line with a short-armed shot.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#409 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 7:30 am

Regulio wrote:Rose is the best and the most valuable player on those Bulls and if some stat shows otherwise there is a problem with that statistic.


Then why does that stats make a better prediction than the arbritary choosen ideas about Rose' value? And again, "that stats" says that Rose is having a huge impact.

Regulio wrote:And yes, player psychology has a huge influence on game and crunch time is crucial.


So, the Bulls losing the 3rd quarter of game 2 by 22 had nothing to do with them losing the game? The Bulls losing the 1st quarter by 9 in game 4 had nothing to do with them losing the game? Or the Bulls losing the 2nd quarter by 6 in game 6 had nothing to do with them losing the game?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#410 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 7:31 am

ElGee wrote:What evidence do you have that the refs call less fouls?? Free throws shooting goes way up at the end of games.


I was not suggesting I had the answer, just throwing out ideas. Though as to FTs up at the end of games, of course a lot is intentional fouls.

But to the original point, I don't know it certainly seems like system offenses (unless led by a superstar that IS a superstar due to how he leads a system offense) appear to collapse late in games.

That is certainly the perspective I remember of the Bulls 'try hard' Scott Skiles teams, who would routinely outwork and outplay teams through 3 or 3.5 quarters, then just bumble leads and games away, as other teams went to their superstars.

And also I suspect why depth teams like the Nuggets of the last two years, or even the Bulls this year, in relation to Miami (Bulls having better base advanced metrics) are seen as teams that are not going to live up to their numbers on paper in the post-season.

I'll check out your blog for the forthcoming entry, but I suspect some of the "superstar closing is bad" zeitgeist lately tends to overly focus on Kobe Bryant, and maybe even Melo, who I think all stat heads already have long known are not the most efficient volume scorers (though Melo is good relative to his peer in crunch time) , and therefore not likely to be great in clutch time either, against their teams most effective plays.

James Harden on the other hand is an extremely efficient player, and the Thunder seem to maintain when they run late offense through him.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#411 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 7:34 am

ElGee wrote:My next blog post is on why offenses become so star-usage heavy and why people think it's a good thing. The short answer here: it's risk-averse to go one-on-one with a high-paid star. It's easy. People perceive a pressure and succumb to it and develop a poor strategy. They also launch a disproportionate load of 3's at a frighteningly poor conversion rate when they fall behind in the last few minutes. It's not really a good strategy, but humans aren't always that smart. And I'm guessing not many people knew this happened - even NBA coaches. (Some may even want to limit such "get-it-back-now" shots).


Clock management. There is the thought that managing the shot clock for the opponents is really valuable. So, rushing shots when the game clock is close to the 30 second mark in order to force a 2 for 1, or dribbling off the clock in order to make sure that the opponent has less time to get a shot off. Both strategies are looking fine at the first glance, but when we look at the efficiency differences, we have to conclude that taking the first open shot (within the range of the player who has the ball) is a better strategy. Most times the opportunities will not get any better.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#412 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 am

Rerisen wrote:James Harden on the other hand is an extremely efficient player, and the Thunder seem to maintain when they run late offense through him.


Because he plays the p&r really well. That is a play they also use in other minutes and it is a proven play. That is all. When they rely on hero ball by Westbrook, it is much more variance in their performance at the end of the game.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#413 » by mysticbb » Fri May 11, 2012 7:40 am

Rerisen wrote:And also I suspect why depth teams like the Nuggets of the last two years


The Nuggets just tied a series without HCA against the Lakers. No idea, but they were expected to have +1.2 at that point, while each team is winning their home games to make it 3-3. They are now at +3.7 for the series. What do you expect?
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#414 » by Regulio » Fri May 11, 2012 7:42 am

mysticbb wrote:Then why does that stats make a better prediction than the arbritary choosen ideas about Rose' value? And again, "that stats" says that Rose is having a huge impact.

So, the Bulls losing the 3rd quarter of game 2 by 22 had nothing to do with them losing the game? The Bulls losing the 1st quarter by 9 in game 4 had nothing to do with them losing the game? Or the Bulls losing the 2nd quarter by 6 in game 6 had nothing to do with them losing the game?


It had a lot to do with it of course. But how you perform in 4Q is more important than how you perform in 1Q. And Rose gives you just that - an ability to break tight defenses and score at higher efficiency when it matters the most. Well Rerisen really described it better than me, so no need to repeat it I think.

As for Rose's value, I was referring to Doctor's first post
-Engelmann has Deng ranked 4th in RAPM, and 1st in Defensive RAPM (Rose ranks 33rd).
-Deng has a net +274 for the season, while Rose is only at +217 (Noah & Boozer lag behind further).


Even if it says that Deng has bigger impact, no way he is as valuable to his team as Rose is.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#415 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 7:42 am

mysticbb wrote:
Rerisen wrote:James Harden on the other hand is an extremely efficient player, and the Thunder seem to maintain when they run late offense through him.


Because he plays the p&r really well. That is a play they also use in other minutes and it is a proven play. That is all. When they rely on hero ball by Westbrook, it is much more variance in their performance at the end of the game.


Still seems like a lot is going to be based on the player you are running higher usage through. Of course not all superstar takeover late in games is true isolation or clear out 1v1. Most in fact, is probably not.

But are we to believe that the LeBron Cavs were better off giving Mo Willaims or Big Z, or whoever the same amount of touches in clutch time, as in the rest of the game, as opposed to just going to James over and over (and noting that he was a willing passer off whatever he created).

To bring it back to the team I know, the Bulls, it became clear that Derrick Rose based offense produced the best offense for the Bulls. And going to him more was always good. The Bulls were the best 4th quarter differential team in the league last year (not sure this year) when they did rely on Rose the most heavily.

But obviously you can't do that all game, because the player will get massively fatigued by the end. Additionally, when you do have to pass off to your supporting cast, they will have no rhythm to make a shot, since they haven't been seeing the ball all game.

I mean this was just as true back when MJ was winning titles. When the Bulls needed to go on a run, they went to Michael, over and over. And they threw out, what he called, "that triangle stuff". Hard to argue with the results. But until it was 'Jordan time' the triangle was much better for saving his energy, keeping everyone else involved, and obviously keeping the defense guessing, so they actually had to defend something different than the same player going at them every time.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#416 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 7:46 am

mysticbb wrote:The Nuggets just tied a series without HCA against the Lakers. No idea, but they were expected to have +1.2 at that point, while each team is winning their home games to make it 3-3. They are now at +3.7 for the series. What do you expect?


I wasn't talking about what I expect. But rather conventional analysis of the flaws of superstar lacking teams. I don't know, seems like they don't win titles outside the 04 Pistons.

I'm not an authority on the Nuggets or Lakers, but L.A. certainly doesn't impress me this year.

It was actually last year though when the Nuggets looked truly ferocious numbers wise, post Melo. Did they live up to those season numbers in the postseason? They only got 1 game vs OKC.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#417 » by ElGee » Fri May 11, 2012 4:54 pm

Instead of quoting your last few posts, a few things to chew on that i will try and bring back to Rose:

-FT shooting late. As usual, very astute observation, but my statement was already adjusting for intentional free throws. They go way up even if we remove intentional free throws.

-I have done a lot of research on clutch. This is the latest post, and in it are the 2010 clutch offenses: http://www.backpicks.com/2012/05/08/are ... he-clutch/ You will see almost no correlation between star-driven and "running the offense" teams. In another post, I examine teams over all 11 years we have PBP data and I would say there is a small correlation, or in lay terms, you're slightly more likely to see a good clutch offense have notably good offensive players on it.

-The Scott Skiles teams could have bumbled away leads for other reasons. Or maybe they didn't bumble away leads as much as you think. Do you know that there was a Bulls team that was one of the best clutch shooting teams of the decade?

It's quite possible the team wasn't bumbling away leads consistently, but instead, you *remembered* when they lost leads and attributed it to them bumbling them away. In reality they may have simply over-performed in the first half relative to their opponents and been regressing to the mean in the second. When a really outmatched team gets a lead in the NCAA Tournament over a 1-seed, I don't think they are going to "bumble it away BECAUSE they have the led," I think "it's only a matter of team because they can't keep playing like this." Again, basically no basketball writer on earth is aware of the large variance across the course of a game and so they write the causality of their stories very differently.

For this Bulls team, in this series, fatigue could have done that. The Bulls were *short-handed,* as they were without 2 of their starters. Asik, for example, looked exhausted in G6 (40 mp, a season high, from a 15 mpg player).

-The closing thing isn't just Kobe and Melo. It's the idea that you don't need an isolation scorer and you don't need to be deviating from your offense too much...at ANY point in the game.

-You mention OKC and Denver, but that series last year went like this in 4th q and Final 5 minutes:
G1 21-21, 9-7 OKC
G2 25-23 OKC, 11-11
G3 26-21 OKC, 16-14 Den
G4 33-32 Den, 16-15 OKC
G5 28-21 OKC, 18-10 OKC

Game 5 was really the only game of 5 where OKC won "because" of those final minutes. OKC also had a 148 ORtg in the final 3 of close games (28 points on 19 possessions) - so Denver's defense was arguably a bigger issue.

-Teams don't win titles without superstars because of the distribution of talent. It's hard to build a good team with just equally good players across the board because of draft, salary, roster structure.

Yet just in the last 8 years alone, we've seen the 04 Pistons, 05 Pistons (tight G7, Robert Horry swings the series) and 10 Celtics (tight G7, Perkins injury perhaps swings the series, Ron Artest saves LA). The 76 Celtics, 78 Bullets, 79 Sonics, and 89-90 Pistons all qualify to me. I'm aware some of those teams had big names, but within those seasons, I do not believe they qualified as what you are referring to as a superstar (led by a huge impact player).

Bringing all these points back to the Bulls and this discussion, I'd say that
*Rose's absence hurts Chicago's offense, period
*Teams really aren't losing many playoff games "because" of late offensive gaps
*The divide between needing a closer and having a balanced team is greatly, greatly exaggerated
*Natural Basketball variance needs to be accounted for when spinning stories out of a few games. With HCA, I would make the Bulls favorites over Philly knowing they didn't have Rose. I think even with the G1 injury, Chicago wins the series a good portion of the time. Heck, if there's no foul call on the final play are we even having this discussion?

This is not an indictment on Rose, but it needs to be accounted for when we analyze what's happening on the court.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#418 » by Rerisen » Fri May 11, 2012 6:10 pm

Sort of interesting that, like the original topic before this, you are seeing things more at a league-wide birds eye view, while I would prefer a more rubber meets the road, team by team analysis.

Looking at the Golden State Warriors last year they had several players more efficient than Monta Ellis, their lead scorer. This would suggest to me they should want to run their normal offense late, and provided they can get their guys the same shots as normal, it would be much more effective than giving it to Monta over and over to go for what would probably usually end up in a low percentage jump shot.

Now last year’s Bulls on the other hand (he was rarely healthy this year), they had only two players that scored more efficiently than Derrick Rose. Joakim Noah, an opportunity scorer, who actually got much of his ‘opportunity’ off Rose attacking and dumping off, or off Rose missing a layup and him offensive rebounding it. Then second Kyle Korver, who can score only by being set up, and with Derrick Rose by the far the primary guy on the team that could set him up.

In the Bulls case, it just seems a no brainer to go to Rose attacking (to score or pass) late as a preferred method of best case offense. As opposed to say, what they did earlier in games, having him come down, dump the ball off to Noah, while Rose did some mostly useless off ball routes that rarely amounted to anything, or for waiting for Deng to come around a screen trying to get open for a 20 footer, or dumping it down to Boozer, on the rare off chance his man bites on his pump fake, and he can roll to the rim instead of shooting a low % fade-away jumper.

So two different teams, two totally different prescriptions I would have for the value of superstar offense late in a game.

This is a classic problem of how much to value shot creation ability. It is entirely variable based on the needs of a team, and the ability of a team to produce alternate offensive outside of that shot creator, and if they do it at better or worse levels.

Is our prescription for the 01 Sixers offense going to be less Iverson and more Aaron McKie and Tyrone Hill? I think not, the Bulls are setup closer to that than people think.

Chicago was 19th in the league in TS% as a team this year, but 5th overall offensively, the gap bridged mostly on their dominant offensive rebounding. The best way to take advantage of that offensive rebounding, was for Rose to collapse defenses and get up a shot close to the rim.

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When I was a bigger baseball fan I remember arguments over clutch, and believe Bill James being one of the first to throw cold water on the whole idea that clutch existed (I think he may have backtracked some recently, becoming at least more open minded). But saying essentially, this or that guy just got hot for one whole year in these small sample situations, and look next year, he might suck.

In basketball though, I think of clutch as something different. Merely the ability to maintain, or close to, your standard level of play, when many players around you are wilting to varying degrees under the pressure. Perhaps performing above your average consistently is not really possible outside extraordinary cases, but that most will suffer for the pressure certainly seems to happen, in turn elevating the value of those who don’t lose their cool.

Going back to my example of the Skiles era Bulls, one reason they fell often late in games (when they did fail - I’ll leave off saying they were bad there always without the hard data) was their regular offense stymied because Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich were terrible clutch players for like 3 years in a row. They were shooting like 25-40% in clutch situations, something awful every year. Now that was two of the top 3 options on the team. The result of this was that late offense was turned over to the one ‘clutch’ player, Ben Gordon, as he tried to play pseudo-superstar in a role over his head.

Ben did pretty damn well for himself actually. Especially his rookie year, 20 games double digit 4th quarter scoring. So to the extent those teams were good in the clutch, it was primarily on Ben Gordon hero ball. That is not my hazy memory, but the stats of the primary offensive players involved. But still as a one man show, without the other top options contributing much, and teams knowing the gameplan, they would double and harass Gordon and he would fall short a lot of the times too - more as the years went on. Yet with Deng and Hirnich being so... bet-wettery (oh and Nocioni likewise) I just cannot see where the Bulls were any better off continuing trying to run their system offense late in those games, as opposed to Gordon hero mode. In fact their failure to, is likely what led the coach to abandon it.

So, I don’t think we can just assume that in lieu of superstars closing games, every team could perform their offense equally as well in those situations as they do in the rest of the game.

Maybe what the data is showing at a larger level, is just too many team's with less than the best star scorers (whether Monta Ellis, Melo, Kobe) getting the ball too much late, and not enough Micheal Jordan's, and LeBron's James, actually being successful to push up the data. And yes also, Derrick Rose, I believe.

Not because Derrick Rose is as good as those players, but because the Bulls have a critical weakness outside of him at playmaking, that goes beyond mundane searching for answers like fatigue. Luol Deng cannot create offense off the dribble in the first quarter and he also can't in the 4th quarter. If you watch the Bulls without Derrick, they have no choice but to run their system offense late, and they try to... and it disintegrates too often late in tight or pressure packed games, especially vs better defenses, for it to not be understand, at least in large part, as being a symptom of deficiency in a specific area of offensive skill - shot creation.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#419 » by Dr Positivity » Fri May 11, 2012 6:44 pm

I agree that part of what a 4th quarter go to player or clutch guy means, is the value of a pecking order and "This is exactly what we do every close game" type of mentality, which creates consistency in the playoffs and prevents mental meltdowns like MEM G1 this year. I don't know how anyone could say a go to player isn't important after that series. The effect of emotional leadership and pulling together the troops is real. Leadership is key in every situation of groups of people working towards a goal, whether it's in sports or not

Also as an analogy - I've been watching a lot of NHL playoffs this year, and one of my pet peeves is the "goalie won the series" excuse, and the overrating of the goalie in general. Basically a lot of times the "hot goalie" in the playoffs comes down to a team dominating the play and locking down defensively, forcing the opponent into a 30-35 low % 20 foot shots that are stopped every time, and then their high Save % making people go "Whoa, he stole the game!", or likewise a goalie with bad stats getting blamed for submarining his team when he lets in 3-5 goals a game that he had literally no chance of stopping. Save % and goals against average are basically as context related as like RBIs in baseball - a goalie this year on St. Louis (Brian Elliott) set the all time highest save % and highest goals against average since 1940 and honestly, he's not even a reliable starting talent, to give an idea of how misleading those stats are. He was a scrub the first 5 years of his career and then he sucked in the playoffs this year to nobody's surprise when the defense in front of him went from all time great in the RS to "mental collapse". I feel the same way about the 'The only thing that matters is who has the better goalie!' comments that ElGee does if he hears someone say scoring in the last 5 minutes is the only thing that matters. However, what really does matter is the mental aspect. What I respect is when I see an analyst saying that a top goalie changes the entire confidence of the team in front of him and emotional energy and that his best job is to make the timely stops more than anything. To prevent the backbreakers if the team is doing good and to stand tall when they're bad - and a team knowing they have that type of talent in goal may be the most important thing. That's sort of how I feel about having a top scorer and proven "end of games" player. Mentally more than anything IMO it's a huge hole when a team doesn't have a pecking order to close out games.
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Re: Talk Me Down: How is Deng not MVP of the Bulls? 

Post#420 » by ChiCitySPORTS#1 » Fri May 11, 2012 7:47 pm

lol this thread..

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