Raptors NBA Draft Thread: Harrison Barnes

[fredericklove]

I mean, if you're happy taking a guy who didn't really improve from year 1 to year 2, why take a good athlete with pretty good size like Barnes when you could take PJIII, a freakishly athletic, higher upside guy?

now you're saying he didn't improve? wow, now I question whether you actually watched the whole season or just the tourney. PJ3, you mean the guy w/ an even higher bust potential? I know its hard to have toughness but softness is all he will ever have.

[fredericklove]

Those 64th blah blah crap are just there as rankings, its because due to team's system play designs, he rarely gets to use these pnr/coming off screens that much because the teams don't run pnr and screens over and over for him. The team uses their PG to run every plays more often than pnr and screens plays run for Barnes. So now we really clearly see it from your emphasize, you hardly watch any unc games, cos so far all you're doing is using stats to hide the true fact that you don't watch a lick of UNC games hence the reason why u keep throwing out the stats as your observations.

[Ell Curry]

I mean, if you're happy taking a guy who didn't really improve from year 1 to year 2, why take a good athlete with pretty good size like Barnes when you could take PJIII, a freakishly athletic, higher upside guy?

now you're saying he didn't improve? wow, now I question whether you actually watched the whole season or just the tourney. PJ3, you mean the guy w/ an even higher bust potential? I know its hard to have toughness but softness is all he will ever have.

I didn't see that many UNC games before the tourney. Like 6-7 including the ACC tourney. But if he improved so much, why didn't it translate statistically? He played with similar teammates and coaches. Barnes improved a bit (got to the line a good deal more, improved his steals rate slightly (to average), hit slightly higher percentage on his 3's), though failed to improve his 2pt shooting, passing, rebounding or blocks.

I'm not a big PJ3 guy, unless he realizes he has to be a 4 and suddenly develops a motor and hunger inside, or the Raps think he can be Bosh offensively with his face-up game, handle and shooting. I'm just saying that he's a freakish athlete, so it's easier to excuse him not figuring out how to dominate as a 20 year old than it is in a guy generally seen as a good but not great athlete. With Barnes, you're betting on his ability to remake his game at a higher level, since doing what he did for UNC isn't good enough to be a star, so his lack of significant improvement is a concern, since it suggests he may not have that ability to adjust. With PJ3, you're betting on him eventually taking his freakish natural gifts and learning how to make them work for him.

[tcee]

I mean, if you're happy taking a guy who didn't really improve from year 1 to year 2, why take a good athlete with pretty good size like Barnes when you could take PJIII, a freakishly athletic, higher upside guy?

now you're saying he didn't improve? wow, now I question whether you actually watched the whole season or just the tourney. PJ3, you mean the guy w/ an even higher bust potential? I know its hard to have toughness but softness is all he will ever have.

I didn't see that many UNC games before the tourney. Like 6-7 including the ACC tourney....

you can bet on barnes to bring his established skills (defense, footwork, clutch mentality, ability to read pick and roll) to the nba, because those skills are more soft skills than hard skills. these things seem to be very underrated, when everyone cares about handles and shot making, which can be blown out of proportion in the ncaa. granted, that can work against barnes too, by saying that even against inferior opponents he had mediocre stats. however, the things mentioned before, the soft skills, you can almost absolutely count on to be brought to the next level. don't think you can say the same for prospects like pj3. at the end of the day, we'd be very very very lucky to have him drop to the 8th spot.

[Ell Curry]

If you can't create for others with the pick and roll, you're probably not going to be that efficient running it, unless you're a lights out scorer, and Barnes hasn't shot the ball consistently well enough like, say a Durant or Kevin Martin (both of whom had way higher TS%) did in college. That's why Derozan running the pick and roll wouldn't/doesn't win the Raptors games.

how is not creating for others w/ pnr end up labeled as inefficient with it? You're talking in a point guard emphasize where they need to use pnr to create for others, but for scores, you run pnr to lead a 2nd defender in, or to lead an oncoming screen to help you create a switch in defender to either get your iso with the mismatch advantage, or to mislead the defender so that you can get your space off. So really? You use the "create for others" in a wrong emphasize, don't make the same mistake next time.

You did this again, stop using Demar as example, using him isn't going to help explain why Barnes won't work well w/ pnr in the NBA, its totally different player with different game. Demar doesn't really know how to use pnr, and rarely uses it well.

And you using TS% to dictate Barnes' game, thats a waste of valuable time, we're talking about game style, using these type of stats in a college context w/ college system/ college style isn't going to relate anything to the NBA level., and especially you're using Durant's legendary college freshman season, Kevin Martin on the other hand is a phenomenal offensive player. Bringing up Durant, Martin, or a point guard mentality w/ pnr aren't ideal comparison on Barnes' case.

1. Whether or not you're a scorer, passing ability matters. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't for non-PG's when they are the ball handler in a pick and roll. Black holes are a bad thing. Players who can pass are a good thing, no matter what position they play.

2. I haven't seen any evidence that TS% doesn't correlate decently from college to pros. Look at this: http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.com/2 ... a-players/

This post discusses "six players who I believed were “substantially similar” to Tobias Harris in terms of (1) height (6’7”.75) (2) weight (223) (3) reach (8’7”.5) and (4) strength (12 reps) and then examined how the college numbers produced by those players translated to the NBA.

The six players from the Draftexpress “Measurement History” files whom I believed were the most similar to Tobias Harris were: Carmelo Anthony, Damion James, Danny Granger, Caron Butler, Cartier Martin, and Jeff Green." Barnes is listed at 6'8, 223 and those SF's all seem like reasonable comparisons.

Their TS% translated similarly: "The six were also remarkably similar in their TS% decline, with each being around 14.6% less efficient in their rookie season than they were in college (Anthony being the outlier at 7.5%). Even if Barnes is a similar positive outlier and declines at the rate Anthony did (rather than at the worse rate the other 5/6 guys did) , he'll still post a true shooting percentage around .491. Here are the 10 NBA players who shot closest to that this season:

Jason Maxiell, DET
Steve Blake, LAL
D.J. Augustin, CHA
Daniel Gibson, CLE
Ekpe Udoh, GS/MIL
Joel Przybilla, POR
Manny Harris, CLE
Donte Greene, SAC
Raymond Felton, POR
C.J. Watson, CHI
Marreese Speights, MEM

That's a horrifying list. Again, Barnes is a 20 year old kid who was seen as an NBA superstar just 80 games ago. He could outperform his college stats, even. But that's an incredibly rare thing to do and a massive, massive risk for an organization to take at the 8th overall spot in a deep draft, right?

[deeps6x]

Do not want.

I was going to vote for zero percent, but for some reason, that isn't an option.

I don't care if we are drafting 11th. Give me Lamb, Marshall or Lillard over Barnes. Bleh. Just thinking about the Raptors drafting him leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[lander]

So is there any other prospect that's inspired 17 pages of debate on here. Since Barnes is proving already to be a contentious topic without being on the Raptors well then its safe to say that he will undoubtedly be on our team come next season, seeing as how most on here hate our players.

[C_Money]

So is there any other prospect that's inspired 17 pages of debate on here. Since Barnes is proving already to be a contentious topic without being on the Raptors well then its safe to say that he will undoubtedly be on our team come next season, seeing as how most on here hate our players.

I think people are talking about him so much because he's the type of one dimensional player that BC loves acquiring and alot of us are tired of seeing that s***. He's got "BC guy" written all over him.

[fredericklove]

So is there any other prospect that's inspired 17 pages of debate on here. Since Barnes is proving already to be a contentious topic without being on the Raptors well then its safe to say that he will undoubtedly be on our team come next season, seeing as how most on here hate our players.

I think people are talking about him so much because he's the type of one dimensional player that BC loves acquiring and alot of us are tired of seeing that s***. He's got "BC guy" written all over him.

Do you not understand the term 2-way? Or heck, do you understand basketball? How's he 1 dimensional?

[CoachJReturns]

I think everyone needs to lower their expectations of this guy. He might be a starter, but he'll never be a star. NEVER. I'm not trying to say that like I'm some all knowing basketball god, but let's face it he has not shown anything one would call special at the collegiate level. He had some clutch ability as a freshman, but if he can't even dominate in college and has very unremarkable athleticism, ball handling and passing, how can he possibly be more than an average starter? I know he can shoot, which is good. We lack shooters. But since he has little ball handling ability, what are the odds he can create his own shot at the next level? He needs to be in a Bruce Bowen role on offense. A guy who plays with other scorers and therefore gets left alone in the corners to make the quick catch and shoot 3. To do that he needs to play with far better scorers who can create and draw attention as well as being willing to move the ball around quickly. Raptors ball movement is slow like molasis. Even our pass first point guard holds onto the ball too long. Barnes may be a solid piece for a team, but I don't think this is a very good place for him to land. Unless you think a good destination for him is a place where he can be a chucker if he chooses to. We've always been a land of opportunity for chuckers.

[deeps6x]

If you can't create for others with the pick and roll, you're probably not going to be that efficient running it, unless you're a lights out scorer, and Barnes hasn't shot the ball consistently well enough like, say a Durant or Kevin Martin (both of whom had way higher TS%) did in college. That's why Derozan running the pick and roll wouldn't/doesn't win the Raptors games.

how is not creating for others w/ pnr end up labeled as inefficient with it? You're talking in a point guard emphasize where they need to use pnr to create for others, but for scores, you run pnr to lead a 2nd defender in, or to lead an oncoming screen to help you create a switch in defender to either get your iso with the mismatch advantage, or to mislead the defender so that you can get your space off. So really? You use the "create for others" in a wrong emphasize, don't make the same mistake next time.

You did this again, stop using Demar as example, using him isn't going to help explain why Barnes won't work well w/ pnr in the NBA, its totally different player with different game. Demar doesn't really know how to use pnr, and rarely uses it well.

And you using TS% to dictate Barnes' game, thats a waste of valuable time, we're talking about game style, using these type of stats in a college context w/ college system/ college style isn't going to relate anything to the NBA level., and especially you're using Durant's legendary college freshman season, Kevin Martin on the other hand is a phenomenal offensive player. Bringing up Durant, Martin, or a point guard mentality w/ pnr aren't ideal comparison on Barnes' case.

1. Whether or not you're a scorer, passing ability matters. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't for non-PG's when they are the ball handler in a pick and roll. Black holes are a bad thing. Players who can pass are a good thing, no matter what position they play.

2. I haven't seen any evidence that TS% doesn't correlate decently from college to pros. Look at this: http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.com/2 ... a-players/

This post discusses "six players who I believed were “substantially similar” to Tobias Harris in terms of (1) height (6’7”.75) (2) weight (223) (3) reach (8’7”.5) and (4) strength (12 reps) and then examined how the college numbers produced by those players translated to the NBA.

The six players from the Draftexpress “Measurement History” files whom I believed were the most similar to Tobias Harris were: Carmelo Anthony, Damion James, Danny Granger, Caron Butler, Cartier Martin, and Jeff Green." Barnes is listed at 6'8, 223 and those SF's all seem like reasonable comparisons.

Their TS% translated similarly: "The six were also remarkably similar in their TS% decline, with each being around 14.6% less efficient in their rookie season than they were in college (Anthony being the outlier at 7.5%). Even if Barnes is a similar positive outlier and declines at the rate Anthony did (rather than at the worse rate the other 5/6 guys did) , he'll still post a true shooting percentage around .491. Here are the 10 NBA players who shot closest to that this season:

Jason Maxiell, DET
Steve Blake, LAL
D.J. Augustin, CHA
Daniel Gibson, CLE
Ekpe Udoh, GS/MIL
Joel Przybilla, POR
Manny Harris, CLE
Donte Greene, SAC
Raymond Felton, POR
C.J. Watson, CHI
Marreese Speights, MEM

That's a horrifying list. Again, Barnes is a 20 year old kid who was seen as an NBA superstar just 80 games ago. He could outperform his college stats, even. But that's an incredibly rare thing to do and a massive, massive risk for an organization to take at the 8th overall spot in a deep draft, right?

You are correct sir!

Don't do it BC. PJIII, Marshall, Lillard and Lamb are all better risk/reward players at that level. Even Sullinger - who we definitely do not need - would be a better pick.

[DG88]

I think everyone needs to lower their expectations of this guy. He might be a starter, but he'll never be a star. NEVER. I'm not trying to say that like I'm some all knowing basketball god, but let's face it he has not shown anything one would call special at the collegiate level. He had some clutch ability as a freshman, but if he can't even dominate in college and has very unremarkable athleticism, ball handling and passing, how can he possibly be more than an average starter? I know he can shoot, which is good. We lack shooters. But since he has little ball handling ability, what are the odds he can create his own shot at the next level? He needs to be in a Bruce Bowen role on offense. A guy who plays with other scorers and therefore gets left alone in the corners to make the quick catch and shoot 3. To do that he needs to play with far better scorers who can create and draw attention as well as being willing to move the ball around quickly. Raptors ball movement is slow like molasis. Even our pass first point guard holds onto the ball too long. Barnes may be a solid piece for a team, but I don't think this is a very good place for him to land. Unless you think a good destination for him is a place where he can be a chucker if he chooses to. We've always been a land of opportunity for chuckers.

This, everytime I've watched Barnes I've never come away impressed by what he brings. If he's available I believe BC would pick him. He's ok in the triple threat but outside of that I don't see him being anything more than what Alan Anderson gave up at the end of the season.

[lander]

So is there any other prospect that's inspired 17 pages of debate on here. Since Barnes is proving already to be a contentious topic without being on the Raptors well then its safe to say that he will undoubtedly be on our team come next season, seeing as how most on here hate our players.

I think people are talking about him so much because he's the type of one dimensional player that BC loves acquiring and alot of us are tired of seeing that s***. He's got "BC guy" written all over him.

Lol Barnes is not one dimensional. I'm not saying that he'll be some saviour if we pick him, but this ridiculous idea that he's some 3pt chucker that can't play defence needs to stop right here. Simply put if we were to pick Barnes we would get a replacement for Bargnani. Barnes can do the things that we wish Bargs could do, play defence at his position, rebound for his position and hit a **** game winner. I can understand not liking him as a player, personally I don't suffer from that, but please don't push this misconception that he's one dimensional. He's always in his college career been considered the guy that’s good at a lot but great at nothing. He's never been considered one dimensional which is why most say he's like a Loul Deng and if the people who are paid to have a professional opinion on him think he's like one of the best defenders in the league well then he's obviously not one dimensional.

[lander]

I think everyone needs to lower their expectations of this guy. He might be a starter, but he'll never be a star. NEVER. I'm not trying to say that like I'm some all knowing basketball god, but let's face it he has not shown anything one would call special at the collegiate level. He had some clutch ability as a freshman, but if he can't even dominate in college and has very unremarkable athleticism, ball handling and passing, how can he possibly be more than an average starter? I know he can shoot, which is good. We lack shooters. But since he has little ball handling ability, what are the odds he can create his own shot at the next level? He needs to be in a Bruce Bowen role on offense. A guy who plays with other scorers and therefore gets left alone in the corners to make the quick catch and shoot 3. To do that he needs to play with far better scorers who can create and draw attention as well as being willing to move the ball around quickly. Raptors ball movement is slow like molasis. Even our pass first point guard holds onto the ball too long. Barnes may be a solid piece for a team, but I don't think this is a very good place for him to land. Unless you think a good destination for him is a place where he can be a chucker if he chooses to. We've always been a land of opportunity for chuckers.

This, everytime I've watched Barnes I've never come away impressed by what he brings. If he's available I believe BC would pick him. He's ok in the triple threat but outside of that I don't see him being anything more than what Alan Anderson gave up at the end of the season.

Alan Anderson really????????? So he'll be like a 29 year old D leaguer

[Undefeated]

I think everyone needs to lower their expectations of this guy. He might be a starter, but he'll never be a star. NEVER. I'm not trying to say that like I'm some all knowing basketball god, but let's face it he has not shown anything one would call special at the collegiate level. He had some clutch ability as a freshman, but if he can't even dominate in college and has very unremarkable athleticism, ball handling and passing, how can he possibly be more than an average starter? I know he can shoot, which is good. We lack shooters. But since he has little ball handling ability, what are the odds he can create his own shot at the next level? He needs to be in a Bruce Bowen role on offense. A guy who plays with other scorers and therefore gets left alone in the corners to make the quick catch and shoot 3. To do that he needs to play with far better scorers who can create and draw attention as well as being willing to move the ball around quickly. Raptors ball movement is slow like molasis. Even our pass first point guard holds onto the ball too long. Barnes may be a solid piece for a team, but I don't think this is a very good place for him to land. Unless you think a good destination for him is a place where he can be a chucker if he chooses to. We've always been a land of opportunity for chuckers.

Please stop with the overrrating of yo-yo handles. Barnes' handles are good enough that he doesn't turn the ball over when he turns the corner off of the pick and attacks the interior defense. Barnes wouldn't get all the way to the rim with sloppy handles when there are mutiple defenders sliding over trying to reach or swipe the ball out of his hands. He's got a good safety ball-handling skills that he doesn't turn the ball over. And there are other ways to score like using screens to force a switch which Barnes has done plenty of times when UNC ran a high screen-and-roll or side screen-and-roll. If there's a mismatch, Barnes can use his speed to beat the big man off the dribble. If there isn't a switch, Barnes can easily shoot over the top of the defense after calling for a screen. Just a few examples, but it's not that black and white when it comes to creating offense for himself.

[C_Money]

I'm talking about one dimensional offensively. He's a catch and shoot guy. Good for pick 15-25 but not at 8. His defense is also overrated. I don't see this guy being able to guard the top 3's in the NBA because he moves around like a box. No agility whatsoever. I think it was Mufasa or somebody who called him a stretch PF like Channing Frye and I would agree with that.

[lander]

I'm talking about one dimensional offensively. He's a catch and shoot guy. Good for pick 15-25 but not at 8. His defense is also overrated. I don't see this guy being able to guard the top 3's in the NBA because he moves around like a box. No agility whatsoever. I think it was Mufasa or somebody who called him a stretch PF like Channing Frye and I would agree with that.

How can it be overrated when a lot people on here are acting like he's Jose on defence. If anything I think Barnes has gone from being overrated coming out of high school (when he was compared to future HOFs like Kobe), to being severely underrated now that he's being apparently compared to D-leaguers.

Anyway I don't want to argue the same regurgitated argument about Barnes. I will gladly wait to see his Rookie season unfold and then we can revisit this topic. If we get him we will be lucky. I see him being possibly the second best prospect in this draft, unless of course Drummond lives up to his potential in which case nobody can compete with that not even Anthony Davis.

Oooh well if Mufasa said it must be true. Seriously Barnes IS NOT A 4. NO WAY, NO HOW. He's a SF plain and simple he can play spot minutes as a 2 maybe but no way is he a four. There's nothing about his game that suggests he is a four. Mufasa also irrationally disliked JV last year if I recall correctly he called JV a stiff. Some of us watch these prospects if we have access to a way to see them play, others just go off of scouting sites and Realgm.

[fredericklove]

I'm talking about one dimensional offensively. He's a catch and shoot guy. Good for pick 15-25 but not at 8. His defense is also overrated. I don't see this guy being able to guard the top 3's in the NBA because he moves around like a box. No agility whatsoever. I think it was Mufasa or somebody who called him a stretch PF like Channing Frye and I would agree with that.

Now that's when you know you're wrong if you start to agree w/ Mufasa lol. And he's not just catch and shoot guy, and he can play defense, but that's all you always say anyways, same statement over and over again without any depth, but why even bother right? You ignore things so there's no point for us to bring in topic about what Barnes can do other than catch and shoot cos the past 4-5 pages have been talking about other areas of his offensive repertoire.

[Dr Positivity]

I've been rewatching some UNC games to make a video for Barnes and one thing I'll say is that he is extremely smooth. I think he's a great athlete even though he doesn't have a first step. Fluidity is a huge part of athleticism. I would predict 18 pts 6 rebounds on a weak efficiency because he seems to be pretty in love with his midrange jumpshot game. He took a lot of fadeaways and "fancy" shots in the games I watched.

Ell Curry brought up a comparison yesterday I like and have used before - I could see him being a SF Nick Young type. Young to me is pretty smooth and can shoot but doesn't have quite the speed or explosion to be an attack the paint player, so he ends up with a lot of herky jerky jumpshots. More intelligent version of Young maybe. I see Barnes having a better career than half the guys taken top 20. My problem is I can't buy the upside like some other prospects

[Relentless88]

I've been rewatching some UNC games to make a video for Barnes and one thing I'll say is that he is extremely smooth. I think he's a great athlete even though he doesn't have a first step. Fluidity is a huge part of athleticism. I would predict 18 pts 6 rebounds on a weak efficiency because he seems to be pretty in love with his midrange jumpshot game. He took a lot of fadeaways and "fancy" shots in the games I watched.

Ell Curry brought up a comparison yesterday I like and have used before - I could see him being a SF Nick Young type. Young to me is pretty smooth and can shoot but doesn't have quite the speed or explosion to be an attack the paint player, so he ends up with a lot of herky jerky jumpshots. More intelligent version of Young maybe. I see Barnes having a better career than half the guys taken top 20. My problem is I can't buy the upside like some other prospects

He does have good balance, which should help his ability to finish in the NBA. Again, it's his upside that seems limited right now. I don't really have any doubts that he'll be a solid player/starter, but I'm not sure if he'll ever emerge as an all-star type talent.

Of course at #8, I'm not expecting the Raptors to draft an all-star.