OT - Would you trade Griffen for Dwight?

[magic04life]

As a Magic fan, I would like to know what Clipper fans think of this. Would you trade Blake Friggen for Dwight Howard?

[azncorruptedo17]

we'd probably have to get turboglu or anderson with the deal... and we'd have to give up bg/dj for it as well.

throw a draft pick and d12 signs an extension, then maybe we have a deal.

we'd have cp3/d12 for at least 5 years.

[og15]

It would at least require Dwight committing long term, and then things could get rolling in such a discussion. Without that, there's zero chance. The trade would be about the defense though, because Blake is arguably already a better offensive player (about equal scoring rate, lower turnovers, higher apg). People were hating on Blake for averaging 19.1 PPG (.533 TS%) in 35.7 MPG in his first post-season appearance, but Dwight averaged 15.3 PPG (.540 TS%, 41.8 MPG) his first time, 18.9 (.589 TS%, 42.1 MPG) his second time and 20.3 (.634 TS%, 39.3 MPG) in the 23 game long playoff run to the finals.

It will depend on a few things:
-how much the FO values Dwight
-what Chris Paul thinks
-what the Magic are willing to add to the mix

The Magic would obviously have to take another player back, and it has to be DJ, but he can't be traded till December without him giving approval. Trading Blake for Dwight only makes sense if DJ goes because $29 million and rising each year for Dwight and a super inferior version of him is idiotic for a team. Also, the Clippers won't be interested in taking back on of Orlando's bad contracts as Orlando is the one's getting a rising star for a player that supposedly doesn't want to be there. Olshey would probably ask for a 1st round draft pick to keep the Clippers flexible in building after loosing two players. Would the Magic be willing to offer that? Who knows?

It could possibly to be something like this at it's baseline:
DeAndre Jordan + Blake Griffin <---> Dwight Howard + 1st Rd Pick

...but of course, as you know, the Clippers won't be offering Blake, and the FO will bid for Dwight, but not with the kind of offers the Magic would get excited about.

[thanumba2clippersfan]

This trade scenario has come up before. I honestly wouldn't trade Blake for Howard. Blake is still growing and getting better. We basically know the type of player Howard is already. Blake has the potential to be a more dynamic scorer than Howard and probably is already. The only thing is Blake will never be the defender that Howard is. Plus Blake is younger. My feeling is I'd rather keep Blake, but that's just me.

[jflipclip]

I would. In a heartbeat.

It's not a realistic scenario though.

[LOJ]

The only way I would do a Blake for Dwight swap is if we can unload all 3 of Mo, DJ, and Butler. Get a third team involved, I don't care. Blake is a dream scenario for the Magic, and they would have to do everything possible to make it happen, we're also not taking any bad contracts.

Basically do what the Nets were trying to do and just strip the team and build it around Howard and Paul for major cap flexibility. Get Jason Richardson who's on a nice contract, and sign Brandon Bass after he declines his option with the Celtics, reunite him with Dwight.

Paul/Bledsoe
Young/Richardson/FA
Barnes/Richardson/FA
Bass/Evans
Howard/FA

[RiversideClips]

Can't/Don't want Howard in a Clip's Jersey; The guy whines like the South of France. W/ Blake, we know what we got and he doesn't seem to be a "crybaby," for me that is huge.
I think we need to trade DJ, he will never be worth the 10 million per season, the Warriors screwed us on that one! We should have let him go to the Bay and used filler, like KMart & Reggie. DJ was on the bench b/c of Foul trouble most of the time.

Guards--- CP3, Chauncey, Bledsoe, Travis Leslie ( start him in Bfield)
We need to get a true #2 Guard
Small Forward --- Caron + someone who will motivate him ( Maybe we move Trey Thompkins to Bfield & have him try the 3, He is long, athletic & has an outside shot! Trey can never play the #4 on the Clips as long as Blake is here)
Blake as the #4 Backed up by Kmart & Reggie
We need a 7ft. center who is Mean I'd wish Kaman would come back for 1/2 the price, but that isn't going to happen.

We have Room for 5-6 additions, any thoughts?

[og15]

The only way I would do a Blake for Dwight swap is if we can unload all 3 of Mo, DJ, and Butler. Get a third team involved, I don't care. Blake is a dream scenario for the Magic, and they would have to do everything possible to make it happen, we're also not taking any bad contracts.

Basically do what the Nets were trying to do and just strip the team and build it around Howard and Paul for major cap flexibility. Get Jason Richardson who's on a nice contract, and sign Brandon Bass after he declines his option with the Celtics, reunite him with Dwight.

Paul/Bledsoe
Young/Richardson/FA
Barnes/Richardson/FA
Bass/Evans
Howard/FA

Jason Richardson is 31 years old, was about as good as Caron last season, isn't much of a defender, and is signed until 2014/2015 (34 years old), well he has a player option that year, but he will likely take it. I think the FO would pass on him, they can get similar impact players for much cheaper out in the market.

You're right though, in a Blake trade, other contracts would have to be unloaded, primarily DJ, but one can't be greedy in a realistic situation. The only other Magic player I would like back is J.J. Redick. I don't really see this trade being too possible though.

If it could somehow work, let's say one get's Dwight/Something for Blake/DJ (Mo Williams will have to be unloaded somehow, 2nd round pick / trade exception to a team under the cap if possible, if not, for a player on a team that just needs a guy to fill in at PG for a year)
1) Go hard after Frye <-> Gomes + Thompkins + Future Pick.
2) Sign Ray Allen (part of MLE, $4M) or Nick Young if he can be gotten for a reasonable price
3) Sign Carlos Delfino ($2-3M)
4) Re-sign Reggie Evans (vet min)
5) 2nd round pick or vet min big

PG: Chris Paul | Eric Bledsoe
SG: Ray Allen | Carlos Delfino
SF: Caron Butler | Carlos Delfino
PF: Channing Frye | Reggie Evans
C: Dwight Howard | ????

How likely is this? Not really likely, but the team has a good spread of shooters along with some guys that can defend adequately. One could also go after Dorell Wright or Anthony Morrow for shooting.

[LOJ]

Jason Richardson is still an ok shooter though, better than Butler, and can still take some guys off the dribble. At 5.6M per season that's reasonable to fill in some salary gaps. JJ's lack of size has always been a turn off for me. He's not Eric Gordon 6'4 either, the guy is little, has no wingspan. Can be a pesky perimeter defender but can't really fully defend any 2's due to lack of size/strength.

[clipper gurl]

I would rather keep Blake.

[og15]

Jason Richardson is still an ok shooter though, better than Butler, and can still take some guys off the dribble. At 5.6M per season that's reasonable to fill in some salary gaps. JJ's lack of size has always been a turn off for me. He's not Eric Gordon 6'4 either, the guy is little, has no wingspan. Can be a pesky perimeter defender but can't really fully defend any 2's due to lack of size/strength.

I just don't like J-Rich, not as a person, but I'm not a huge fan of the older version of J-Rich's game.

Here's their comparison per 36 minutes:

Jason Richardson:
14.2 ppg | 4.4 rpg | 2.4 apg | 1.2 spg | .408 FG% | .368 3PT% | 6.3 3PTA | .502 TS% | 13.3 PER

Caron Butler:
14.5 ppg | 4.4 rpg | 1.5 apg | 1.0 spg | .407 FG% | .358 3PT% | 4.9 3PTA | .501 TS% | 11.7 PER

Basically the same player at different positions last season. J-Rich might have defended slightly better at best, both are 31 years old, Caron has one less year on his contract. J-Rich finishes better, both aren't at the rim much though, and Caron shoots better from mid-range. Do you really want that extra year of J-Rich's contract for marginally better production at best? That's the question you have to ask yourself

Though with that said, I do believe J-Rich could do a better efficiency job than what he did last season. Then again, Caron probably could too I suppose, but still isn't the 3PT shooter than J-Rich is.

Redick, you are correct about, but he would be an expiring contract, and he can shoot the heck out of the ball, but his defense leaves a lot to be desired. He tries, sorta, but, well...

[Angel strike1]

HELLL NO!!!

i cant belive some of you even saying yes tsk tsk tsk.

blake put us on the map. the dude is a stud. remember it was his 2nd year. upside is huge!

D12 is a quitter!!! blake as injured as he was in the playoffs he still dived for balls . he PLAYED.

dont get me wrong d12 for dj and something i would take. no way in hell i am giving up blake!

common now yo..

[LOJ]

Jason Richardson is still an ok shooter though, better than Butler, and can still take some guys off the dribble. At 5.6M per season that's reasonable to fill in some salary gaps. JJ's lack of size has always been a turn off for me. He's not Eric Gordon 6'4 either, the guy is little, has no wingspan. Can be a pesky perimeter defender but can't really fully defend any 2's due to lack of size/strength.

I just don't like J-Rich, not as a person, but I'm not a huge fan of the older version of J-Rich's game.

Here's their comparison per 36 minutes:

Jason Richardson:
14.2 ppg | 4.4 rpg | 2.4 apg | 1.2 spg | .408 FG% | .368 3PT% | 6.3 3PTA | .502 TS% | 13.3 PER

Caron Butler:
14.5 ppg | 4.4 rpg | 1.5 apg | 1.0 spg | .407 FG% | .358 3PT% | 4.9 3PTA | .501 TS% | 11.7 PER

Basically the same player at different positions last season. J-Rich might have defended slightly better at best, both are 31 years old, Caron has one less year on his contract. J-Rich finishes better, both aren't at the rim much though, and Caron shoots better from mid-range. Do you really want that extra year of J-Rich's contract for marginally better production at best? That's the question you have to ask yourself

Though with that said, I do believe J-Rich could do a better efficiency job than what he did last season. Then again, Caron probably could too I suppose, but still isn't the 3PT shooter than J-Rich is.

Redick, you are correct about, but he would be an expiring contract, and he can shoot the heck out of the ball, but his defense leaves a lot to be desired. He tries, sorta, but, well...

I agree, but since in my scenario we unload all 3 of Mo, Butler, and DJ I'm pretty sure we'd have to take SOME salary back, J-Rich's contract isn't so bad, so what if it has an extra year? Butlers contract with less than a year is just a bit too fat for what he brings to the table. Really digs into our flexibility every year.

I never thought you were one to use the per 36 stat, by far my least favorite of the advanced stats.

[og15]

Per 36 is a great comparison stats. I like per 36 when comparing players that we know can play the minutes being talked about (not Mike Sweetney), or used in context. Both Butler and J-Rich can play 36+ MPG, just that their coaches might not have wanted to leave them on that long this past season because of a another player needing minutes, or them sucking at something else. As long as it isn't a stamina issue, then it's all good.

It's a good baseline to compare because minutes = production, and when you get over about 20+ MPG, it's not a situation of a guy who plays few minutes and goes all out and can't sustain his level of play/energy (and usually you see it reflected in high foul rate, etc for some guys like that).

It's useless to say player A is a better scorer than player B because he scores 15 PPG in 37 minutes, and player B scores 12 PPG in 27 minutes.

That is true that if everyone is unloaded, then J-Rich making $6M for a year isn't an issue, don't think it is possible, or that the team would do that. Probably isn't the best rep for a team that they just unload all their guys like that.

I think it's generally best seen in what I call the "fake" MIP's. The guys that didn't actually get better, but just played more, eg: Ryan Anderson, etc.

[krazyclipperfan]

No way u trade Blake for Howard. Blake made this team what it is with his play this year and last year. You don't trade a player that is bring respectability to your team. Even Brand couldnt do that and I don't remember very many people taking about trading him. Blake is still young and has a lot of progress that he can make to. If he does it he can help make this team a champion contender.

[mkwest]

For me, it's not a question of who the better player is or gives us the higher ceiling. Right now, the better player is clearly Dwight. He can anchor a defense and is the best player at his position hands down. His offensive game has not totally been fulfilled, but he's never played with a pass first point guard with the talent of CP3. Surround them with shooters and it's a wrap. For Orlando, getting a player like Blake in return would be one of the best possible trades for them and that is with him looking at a max contract in a year.

The Clippers won't make the trade, because there is so much invested in Blake. Chris Paul is the reason that any free-agent may want to play on the Clippers and Blake is the reason that Chris took a chance on us. He started the franchise turnaround and there is still work left to be done. We know that we can have Blake for at least 4 more seasons, whereas Dwight could walk at the end of the season if he chose to. A bad back can be just as bad if not worse than a balky knee. For these reasons as well as some others, I don't see Blake being moved for Dwight or 99% of the league for that matter.

I would rather keep Blake.

Welcome to the board

[LOJ]

Per 36 is a great comparison stats. I like per 36 when comparing players that we know can play the minutes being talked about (not Mike Sweetney), or used in context. Both Butler and J-Rich can play 36+ MPG, just that their coaches might not have wanted to leave them on that long this past season because of a another player needing minutes, or them sucking at something else. As long as it isn't a stamina issue, then it's all good.

It's a good baseline to compare because minutes = production, and when you get over about 20+ MPG, it's not a situation of a guy who plays few minutes and goes all out and can't sustain his level of play/energy (and usually you see it reflected in high foul rate, etc for some guys like that).

It's useless to say player A is a better scorer than player B because he scores 15 PPG in 37 minutes, and player B scores 12 PPG in 27 minutes.

That is true that if everyone is unloaded, then J-Rich making $6M for a year isn't an issue, don't think it is possible, or that the team would do that. Probably isn't the best rep for a team that they just unload all their guys like that.

I think it's generally best seen in what I call the "fake" MIP's. The guys that didn't actually get better, but just played more, eg: Ryan Anderson, etc.

In this case it's fine, as you explained with your example and how you used it for Butler and Richardson. But I've seen people use it for their favorite young players to prove a point.

When it comes to scoring some things can't really be predicted. Like hot and cold streaks, some guys can score 15 points in 10 minutes then miss the rest of their shots for the game.

[og15]

That is true, which is why you can't use it for one game, for players who only play garbage time, etc, but over a stretch of games, streaks get accounted for, because that same guy can play 25 minutes and have 2 points, and his per minute scoring averages out. If you look at the majority of players when they reach their "height" of performance, they generally fluctuate around the same range of per minute production.

Mk, I agree, that's what I said earlier, it isn't the Clippers that will be offering Blake, the Magic will have to be the ones trying to convince the Clippers to get him. Olshey will make offers for Dwight, but it will be something like DJ and Butler, or Mo, etc.

[madmaxmedia]

This came up in a post earlier in the year.

Straight up (since this is hypothetical anyway), the answer would (unfortunately) have to be yes. Dwight controls one half of the floor with his defense, on the offensive half both are limited but put up good numbers due to their strength and athleticism. You can sometimes push Blake outside his comfort zone and force him to rely on his midrange game (which is raw but developing), Dwight is too strong to push outside.

Blake plus a bunch of guys is exciting 30 win team, Dwight plus a bunch of guys is a playoff team. Adding Chris Paul to the mix obviously improves the prospects for both, but the ceiling with Dwight is higher. I think the Clippers are soon going to discover just how hard it is to try to rise from a 50 win playoff team, to true conference championship contender. That's not to say it can't be done, but the cap is going to be a serious constraint. If you were to have a chance to have TWO guys that are actually worth more than their max contract, you do it.

I won't get into contracts and trade packages since I think the main intent of the question is just comparing the 2 players, not throwing together real trade scenarios. The other aspect is Dwight's health, I'm assuming that Dwight's back is not an ongoing issue going forward (I have no idea about this.)

[illastrate]

I think Blake may have more appeal in attracting FA's than D12. Maybe because D12 has tarnished his image and seems like a primadonna who quit on his team. With Blake, for all the deficiencies in his game, you know you'll always get 100% effort and no complaining to the media or anything.