Gasol talk - Sam (pg 1), Thonus (pg 10)

[League Circles]

Brewer is far more skilled than Butler. However, the impact of that skill (man defense,team defense and ball pressure) is not going to win you or lose you games in the regular season as it pertains to the talent differential between Butler and Brewer.

In the playoffs, it becomes more pronounced.

I disagree. I think Jimmy is likely to do everything Ronnie can do, but better. Ronnie is an elite wing defender and straight up sucks at everything else that Thibbs can't coach (Thibbs can teach Jimmy to run the baseline too). Jimmy is every bit as good in on ball D, but shows more potential on offense, is more athletic, and has better shot mechanics by far.

Korver's skill on the other hand will directly translate into games won. Replacing him will be much more difficult than compared to Brewer. We will have to do it with volume....we cannot match it with percentage makes.

Korver just won't be a good fit without Rose IMO. As I said, if he weren't going to be a 30-something UFA after this year, I'd like to keep him. He's not a long-term solution, and won't improve.

I do think that if there is no Dwight trade to be made or any other obvious upgrade, then we will go with CJ, Lucas, Hinrich, Korver on our roster.

I'll probably vomit if Kirk is brought back. Just an FYI. I just don't see what possible role there is for him here. He's another guy that at this point in his career, can only contribute alongside an elite player like Rose as a standup shooter. We can and should look for a better piece than him. A Kirk signing will really gross me out.

Regarding Nocioni:
I have'nt been following him in Philly and Sactown...how is he doing? If his heart is not in the US, then he wont be able to help. If he is engaged, he is a really good basketball player...will be able to help us at SF if Deng needs time off.

Noc got cut by Philly because they couldn't use him behind Iggy, Young, Brand, etc. He only played 8 games for them I think. He's tough, can shoot the three, and can be a serious upgrade of Scal IMO. Hell to this day he still has career numbers in points and boards/36 and shooting %s that meet or exceed Deng's. He's not on the same planet defensively, but at least he's a good teammate, knows Deng, Rose, Noah, some of the coaches, the FO, and would hopefully come very cheap. I'd only sign him for the vet min or at most the BAE. I mean even he is much more versatile than Korver. He also gets under peoples skin which can help against the better opponents.

[League Circles]

I'm sorry but Gar/Pax need to be fired if they try to replace good rotation players with late draft picks and d-league talent while not upgrading the rest of the roster. I fail to understand how making the roster worse is an offseason plan unless we're getting legitimate young talent that will put us in a better place for the future. Those moves don't do that.

Who are the good rotation players? Schved is a better talent than Korver or Brewer. That's an upgrade IMO. Then you hope that someone out of Nocioni, #29 (Doron Lamb?), Jimmy Butler, and a d league guy is better than Ronnie. You've got 4 guys. It's not unrealistic to think that 1 out of 4 can play well enough to be better than Ronnie. And btw, there are lots of important rotation players in the league who played in the d league. That's exactly what we need to be doing - trying to find actual good players late in the draft and in the D league, foreign FAs, etc.

[dice]

I would expect Rose, Hamilton, Deng, Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Asik, Butler, MMLE PG, vet min SF, vet min PG, and the #29 pick as your 2012 - 2013 Chicago Bulls. Korver, and Watson, may be back, if they are willing to re-sign, at about 1/2 of they would get, if extended, instead of the vet min guys, but if not, they should get good players, on minimum salary contracts.

That would put the Bulls way into the tax, even with 2 minimum salary guys, and the $500K that Korver is due, even if he is not kept, unless Asik, or Hamilton is dropped.

i think that's reasonable. can't see hamilton amnestied though (hope we wouldn't waste it on him, anyway). and management has already said they'd match asik. that butts us up against the tax threshold even w/o picking up any options or adding new players: i've been suggesting for some time that the most likely scenario is paying the first tier of the tax (75.31 mil), which would break down as follows:

60.17 starters
5.00 omer
3.20 cj
2.16 taj
1.07 jimmy
0.86 #29
2.56 three vet mins

that's 13 roster spots totaling 75.02 mil (290K to spare!). i suppose it's possible we'd use the mmle to replace cj, but his option would cost approximately the same. kinda unfair that he'd be back over korver, but that's the way it goes

boozer amnesty = keeping korver and adding full MLE w/o paying ANY tax? a guy can dream

[cot2]

For you guys that do not like Kirk, if he accepted the home town discount, and signed for the MMLE, not only would I expect that he would start at PG, for most, if not all, of the season, but I would expect that he would also be the starting SG next season, when they pay off Hamilton his $1M to walk, backed up by this year's pick #29. I bet you like it less now?

[League Circles]

Eric Gordon is sitting there without a contract for next season, in the aftermath of failed in-season negotiations with the the Hornets. Because of the Hornets' ownership situation and speculation that Gordon doesn't want to be there regardless, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to think he'll be somewhere else next season. Now, if he's sign-and-traded, the Hornets will want value, but I think we can give it, and I think we'd be a destination he'd like. You san say it's not realistic all you want, but after Dwight, I think he's the best available non-draft acquisition we could make.

I think Eric would be a good piece, though I think he and his fit here are a little overrated. Nonetheless, the Hornets have a new owner now - there really isn't any "ownership situation", and I don't think they'll care that their building block doesn't want to be there when they match an offer sheet for him. The only things we can offer that I think they'd value are Noah, maybe Taj, and the Bobcats pick. I doubt they'd do the deal for Noah. They have Okafor who is underrated IMO. What they need is Gordon, and what they'll have is Gordon IMO.

If any team is willing to part with a pick in the 6-10 range for Luol, i think you do it. If that GS trade people are talking about in the draft/trade threads(Deng for Jefferson+#7) is possible, I think you do it. If it's possible to even make a lesser deal to move up to the 18-20 range and take Dion Waiters or Tony Wroten, I think you do it.

The only guy I'm pretty sure I'd trade Luol for in the draft is Robinson, and he'll go top 4. I don't think we can trade up, because nobody wants to use their cap space for one year rentals of Korver, Brewer, RIP or CJ, and we're not trading Taj for a middling pick IMO.

I just think you have to do what it takes to put legit #2 and #3 options next to Derrick, and I think you have to be a little more aggressive to do that.

The thing is, dealing a #3 guy like Deng for a pick from #6-#10 is much more likely to return a guy who is, after a couple years, a #4, #5, or #6 option than a #2 guy.

[cot2]

I would expect Rose, Hamilton, Deng, Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Asik, Butler, MMLE PG, vet min SF, vet min PG, and the #29 pick as your 2012 - 2013 Chicago Bulls. Korver, and Watson, may be back, if they are willing to re-sign, at about 1/2 of they would get, if extended, instead of the vet min guys, but if not, they should get good players, on minimum salary contracts.

That would put the Bulls way into the tax, even with 2 minimum salary guys, and the $500K that Korver is due, even if he is not kept, unless Asik, or Hamilton is dropped.

i think that's reasonable. can't see hamilton amnestied though (hope we wouldn't waste it on him, anyway). and management has already said they'd match asik. that butts us up against the tax threshold even w/o picking up any options or adding new players: i've been suggesting for some time that the most likely scenario is paying the first tier of the tax (75.31 mil), which would break down as follows:

60.17 starters
5.00 omer
3.20 cj
2.16 taj
1.07 jimmy
0.86 #29
2.56 three vet mins

that's 13 roster spots totaling 75.02 mil (290K to spare!). i suppose it's possible we'd use the mmle to replace cj, but his option would cost approximately the same. kinda unfair that he'd be back over korver, but that's the way it goes

boozer amnesty = keeping korver and adding full MLE w/o paying ANY tax?

You have to add $500K for Korver, even if he walks, there are no tiers this upcoming season, but the tax starts at $70.04M, unless it goes up.

[League Circles]

For you guys that do not like Kirk, if he accepted the home town discount, and signed for the MMLE, not only would I expect that he would start at PG, for most, if not all, of the season, but I would expect that he would also be the starting SG next season, when they pay off Hamilton his $1M to walk, backed up by this year's pick #29. I bet you like it less now?

The MMLE wouldn't be a discount for Kirk, it would be a surcharge. He'll be very lucky to get $3 million from anyone IMO. He sure as hell wouldn't be better at PG, for this team, in our system, over CJ anyway IMO.

[Stop It]

I'll pass up on gasol if we have to trade Deng. What's up with Josh Smith? I remember he wanted out during the season. That's the PF we should go after we don't need another soft and old pf.

[dice]

there are no tiers this upcoming season, but the tax starts at $70.04M, unless it goes up.

sham has tax at 70.307 for this year. and i was under the impression that this year's #s are locked in for next year as well

didn't know there were no tax tiers for next year. guess there's an outside chance we'll keep korver after all

[cot2]

there are no tiers this upcoming season, but the tax starts at $70.04M, unless it goes up.

sham has tax at 70.307 for this year. and i was under the impression that this year's #s are locked in for next year as well

didn't know there were no tax tiers for next year. guess there's an outside chance we'll keep korver after all

You are correct, the $70.04, was a typo, meant to type $70.40, which is still a little off. The number can not go down, from last year's number, but can go up, once they do the calculations. The main point of my post was to include Korver's $500K buyout, if he is not on the roster. Once they past the tax, I do not think small amounts matter that much, as much as not starting the repeater clock, but Gasol at about $20M a season is way too much to swallow.

[Synciere]

Why do the Lakers take the Deng/Rip deal? I'm not understanding how that deal helps them much at all. Does Rip have some sort of buyout to his contract?

The only Gasol deal I see working starts with Deng/Taj IMO....

Maybe I'm just being silly.

[bullsnewdynasty]

I'm sorry but Gar/Pax need to be fired if they try to replace good rotation players with late draft picks and d-league talent while not upgrading the rest of the roster. I fail to understand how making the roster worse is an offseason plan unless we're getting legitimate young talent that will put us in a better place for the future. Those moves don't do that.

Who are the good rotation players? Schved is a better talent than Korver or Brewer. That's an upgrade IMO.

So you want to pay more than $3 million per year for an undrafted international player? Korver and Brewer are good rotation players and helped the Bulls win a lot of games. Ask Utah fans if they're content with the wing players they were left with after they got rid of those two.

Then you hope that someone out of Nocioni, #29 (Doron Lamb?), Jimmy Butler, and a d league guy is better than Ronnie. You've got 4 guys. It's not unrealistic to think that 1 out of 4 can play well enough to be better than Ronnie. And btw, there are lots of important rotation players in the league who played in the d league. That's exactly what we need to be doing - trying to find actual good players late in the draft and in the D league, foreign FAs, etc.

Nocioni has been terrible for a while. Anything good you get out of late 1st round picks should be considered a bonus, not expected. Bulls are trying to win championships, and you don't do that by bringing in d-league players. We're not the Wizards. You still didn't solve any of the problems this team has.

[Rerisen]

They are each elite at one dimension of the game and deficient in most other dimensions.

Good coaching can make use of one elite dimension, and in fact, often easier than in a guy like Rip, whose main dimension is scoring and he's kinda bad at it.

Because it's impossible that other factors influenced how we played with RIP vs them?

There are stats that correct for this, and he still comes out worse.

Obviously the FO thought RIP would be more important, and Thibbs went to RIP late. IMO you read too much into RIP not finishing games during the regular season.

But Thibs didn't go to Rip late. When he finally went to him vs Philly in the playoffs at the end of games, it was only because Rose was out and Rip obviously had a chance to create more offense than Korver on his own. But he's not particularly good at it, which is worrying for next year while Rose is out.

It wasn't chemistry or 'saving him' either, because Thibs had both Rose and Rip late in the year the last handful of games, which was the time to start putting him in to close if he was going to use him that way for the playoffs. There was no indication that was his plan. His plan was to continue to use Korver at the end, as he did in Game 1 vs Philly despite Hamilton shooting great that game.

Not sure what you mean here. How does missing Rose make Hamilton and Boozer - the two guys who can score at decent volume - a bad thing? How does Korver, who can't score unless Rose spoon feeds him and scores very low volume as it is, help that? That's why I want a guy, who can, you know, dribble. Enter Schved and co.

Korver can score fine in the regular season, even without Rose (if not quite as good). Not like we are playing Philly and Miami every game. In losing Korver, we are losing our most efficient scorer. That won't be easy to replace on a team that already struggles in that area.

We can make vague arguments about complex player interactions leading to better shots, but the reality is that most player's efficiency does not change that much year to year, unless you are talking about adding a Steve Nash level playmaker.

Who on this board is talking about entrusting offense to Pargo or Lucas?

We better start talking about it. If while Rose is out, Boozer and Hamilton are your top options, then our PGs are going to be shooting a lot again. Because both those guys score primarily out of the system. Unless the PG is Kirk Hinrich, then we'll struggle to score 90 points every game.

[frosty23]

We got him eventually!!!

[kodo]

It's amusing that it's 3 years later and some of these players are still on our wish list or were already on the roster.

You could get two players for someone like Noah to replace Noah and get a guard. Maybe Atlanta with a sign and trade for Kirk Hinrich and Marvin Williams; Charlotte for B.J. Augustin, Gerald Henderson and B.J. Mullens, Houston with some package including Kyle Lowry and Courtney Lee; New Orleans for Trevor Ariza, Jarrett Jack and one of their lottery picks; Denver with Wilson Chandler and Andre Miller or Arron Afflalo; Minnesota with Luke Ridnour, Derrick Williams and maybe Anthony Randolph or Wes Johnson, though they’d need something back like the Bulls’ No. 1 pick.

The Bulls front office move like an iceberg. It takes them years, but they usually get their man.
They've been targeting Gasol for years. Mirotic for years. McDermott for years.