When Did Kobe Pass Dr.J On Your Rankings And Why/How?

[AshyLarry]

the moment kobe won mvp he leap frogged him

[Rebuilding Year]

He's not better than the Doc, but I tend to weight peak too heavily.

[C-izMe]

Kobe's 06 regular season isn't even a Top 3 offensive season for a wing player for this decade and that was his absolute best scoring season.
He couldn't even lead his supporting cast out of the first round that year despite having a 20/11/5 Odom at his side.
I take that as a pretty big black mark on his career especially since that was supposed to be his Peak.

09 Lebron
09 Wade
03 TMac
Were all easily better offensive seasons.

In no way, shape, or form are those seasons easily better offensively. Maybe better but only slightly.

Comments on the season you listed.
2001 - not even close to being the best player on his own team.

He still came up big when they needed him.


[/quote]2003 - not even close to being the best player on his own team + choked against the Spurs which is the reason why they failed that year in the post season. [/quote]
Nice to know you consider 32/5/4 on 53TS against one of the best defenses ever choking.

2007 - couldn't lead team past first round of the playoffs

Yes he have up on his team which is a big no no.

2008 - choked in the Finals.

You can't be serious. He didn't play great but putting up 26/5/5/3 on 51TS against the (possible) greatest modern defense isn't choking. Nice to know that you, the champion of Shaq, Pau, Odom, and everything not Kobe can bash Kobe for this series while ignoring what his supporting cast did (pretty easy to do when they do nothing).

Putting up gaudy stats is nice but when your a sidekick or choke in the playoffs it kind of makes it all less impressive.
Kobe also tended to statpad against weaker teams ala Wilt.
I just can't see Erving choking the way Kobe did with some of those ridiculously stacked supporting casts.

Kobe is a great player and you can argue for him over the Doctor but posting those stats is not the way to do it.

BTW no offense but Kobe's Prime/Peak is not even close to being Top 10 All-Time.
Calling it one of the best ever is a bit of a stretch.

Your hate of Kobe is getting pretty strong and while I'm not the biggest Kobe fan ignoring that he is one of the greatest ever (and close to a top 10 peak/definetly a top 10 prime). Nice to know you ignore when Kobe played amazing to win two Finals series and Dr. J's first few years in the NBA when he didn't play too well (I consider it nearly as bad as the Kobe, destroyer of teams era).

I do my GOAT list on levels and Kobe is on the same level as Dr. J. Last time I listed them I had Kobe at 10 and Dr. J at 11. Those rings without Shaq did it for me.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't get why people are bringing up Dr.J not being the best player on his team when he won. It was his 12th or 13th season as a professional by the time he had won the NBA championship, why should he be the best player on his team?

[JingoWolf]

Nice to know you consider 32/5/4 on 53TS against one of the best defenses ever choking.

Kobe in 03 may have had nice "series stats" against the Spurs but lets look deeper.
In the first two games of that series he averaged 32ppg on 40%FG / 47%TS with a 13%TOV.
Both of those games were losses and a big reason was because Kobe was playing me-first Hero-Ball.
To put emphasis on him playing Hero-Ball he averaged 1.5apg in those two games.

In Game 6 (the game they got eliminated in) he had his worst game of the series put up 20/6 on 50%TS wasting an Epic (31pt 61% shooting) performance by Shaq.

I guess it's not fair to put all the blame on him but the facts are he had a bad series and had he played better they probably would have beaten the Spurs and then coasted to the Title.

I think Shaq sucked in 97 because he played badly against the Jazz in elimination.
I may like Shaq but I wont make excuses for him.
If you play badly and your team loses you deserve the blame.

[C-izMe]

Shaq didn't have the greatest serie either. If I remember correctly he missed the end of a close game 1 loss because he fouled out. Kobe played bad but I Shaq helped to contain Duncan they would've won. I wouldn say either of them choked (I consider it choking when you are either well below what was expected of you or you are solely the reason for your teams lost). They just didn't play good enough to win.

[JingoWolf]

Shaq didn't have the greatest serie either. If I remember correctly he missed the end of a close game 1 loss because he fouled out. Kobe played bad but I Shaq helped to contain Duncan they would've won. I wouldn say either of them choked (I consider it choking when you are either well below what was expected of you or you are solely the reason for your teams lost). They just didn't play good enough to win.

Fair enough.
I don't completely disagree with what you're saying although I do feel Kobe and some untimely injurys plus really bad play by Horry were the 3 main reasons they lost.

Shaq didn't guard Duncan that much in that series although he did try sometimes and unfortunately for him Duncan was just on fire and could not miss.

Shaq overall I felt had a great series especially considering he was going against Peak Duncan and DRob.

[kasino]

its not close, no other 2nd option, as a few called Kobe(I call him 1b), produced like 3peat Lakers Kobe
If 09/10 Gasol produced the same as he done on those teams he would not be talked about as equal to Shaq
Kobe's repeat years are better than his 3peat which are exceptional

Some have said a replacement of Kobe on the 3peat with another star sg would result in the same fashion. I would argue a prime DRob/Moses/Ewing or Heat Shaq would net the same outcome

But the stigma of Kobe keeps a few from seeing him on par with the likes of Duncan/Shaq

[JingoWolf]

But the stigma of Kobe keeps a few from seeing him on par with the likes of Duncan/Shaq

It might be the fact that Duncan/Shaq produced at much higher level in the playoffs, were far more consistent and were the best player on the majority of their teams/title teams while Kobe is the exact opposite.
The truth is although Kobe was a great, great player it makes no sense to say he was equal or close to a Shaq who was simply a much better player, produced a much higher level and had a much bigger impact on the court.
Shaqs playoff production over his best 13 years is better then Kobe's Peak Production.

01 Kobe was great and played at a level only a select few guards can match but 00 and 02 Kobe was not such a unique player.

00 Kobe = 21 / 4.5 / 4.5 on 51%TS
02 Kobe = 26 / 6 / 4.5 on 51%TS (48%TS Prior to the Finals)

Again... he was great those years but I wouldn't say he was better or significantly better then say 92 (Prime Pippen) in 00 or 02.

2009/2010 Gasol was significantly better then 00 or 02 Kobe however I dont disagree with you thinking 06 Shaq/Moses/DRob could have probably replaced him.

[AnaheimRoyale]

Some have said a replacement of Kobe on the 3peat with another star sg would result in the same fashion. I would argue a prime DRob/Moses/Ewing or Heat Shaq would net the same outcome

That's true, peak Dr J would probably have seen the Lakers win at least 5 titles.

[Black Feet]

Some have said a replacement of Kobe on the 3peat with another star sg would result in the same fashion. I would argue a prime DRob/Moses/Ewing or Heat Shaq would net the same outcome

That's true, peak Dr J would probably have seen the Lakers win at least 5 titles.

Ya replace Shaq with an all time great and the Kobe lead Lakers would dominate for a decade.

[JingoWolf]

Ya replace Shaq with an all time great and the Kobe lead Lakers would dominate for a decade.

Maybe Duncan although thats a big maybe since he was a couple of Tiers below Shaq as an offensive anchor/force.

Kareem, Wilt, Young Hakeem etc... would never put up with Bryants selfishness on the offensive end and him disrespecting their own HoFame coach.
They also lost in 03 and 04 primarily due to Kobe's poor play so they'd lose those years regardless of who he played with.

Bryant only is satisfied winning if he is the "clear alpha/star" so I doubt he could make it work longterm with any of those big names.
His Ego/Arrogance was always his biggest flaw and had he listened to Phil and continued to defer and play into the team concept in 03 and 04 that Dynasty never would have died.

[Black Feet]

Ya replace Shaq with an all time great and the Kobe lead Lakers would dominate for a decade.

Maybe Duncan although thats a big maybe since he was a couple of Tiers below Shaq as an offensive anchor/force.

Kareem, Wilt, Young Hakeem etc... would never put up with Bryants selfishness on the offensive end and him disrespecting their own HoFame coach.
They also lost in 03 and 04 primarily due to Kobe's poor play so they'd lose those years regardless of who he played with.

Bryant only is satisfied winning if he is the "clear alpha/star" so I doubt he could make it work longterm with any of those big names.
His Ego/Arrogance was always his biggest flaw and had he listened to Phil and continued to defer and play into the team concept in 03 and 04 that Dynasty never would have died.

Lol, maybe Duncan? Are you crazy? Kobe/Duncan duo is a perfect fit. That duo would absolutely destroy the league. Kobe only had problems with your boy Shaq, actually Shaq is the one have to worry about leaving your team in the dust and not committing himself 100% to basketball. If Shaq had Kobe's work ethic he would have been GOAT.

[JingoWolf]

Kobe only had problems with your boy Shaq, actually Shaq is the one have to worry about leaving your team in the dust and not committing himself 100% to basketball. If Shaq had Kobe's work ethic he would have been GOAT.

I don't see how Duncan is better then Shaq, especially when comparing Primes.
Shaq did nothing but support Kobe in his early years telling him it was ok when he failed against Utah and calling him the best player in the world in 01.

I feel Kobe's jealously/ego is what made him start to play outside the offense and not listen to PJ/Shaq in 03 and when they complain to him he responded by giving them the cold shoulder.

Shaq also only had problems with Kobe from 93-06.

Kobe and Gasol/Bynum have always had a iffy relationship and the team unity really didn't show up this year.
Everyone on the team seems so isolated except for maybe Kobe/Artest which is weird...

I agree with the bolded though.

[Black Feet]

Kobe only had problems with your boy Shaq, actually Shaq is the one have to worry about leaving your team in the dust and not committing himself 100% to basketball. If Shaq had Kobe's work ethic he would have been GOAT.

I don't see how Duncan is better then Shaq, especially when comparing Primes.
Shaq did nothing but support Kobe in his early years telling him it was ok when he failed against Utah and calling him the best player in the world in 01.

I feel Kobe's jealously/ego is what made him start to play outside the offense and not listen to PJ/Shaq in 03 and when they complain to him he responded by giving them the cold shoulder.

Shaq also only had problems with Kobe from 93-06.

Kobe and Gasol/Bynum have always had a iffy relationship and the team unity really didn't show up this year.
Everyone on the team seems so isolated except for maybe Kobe/Artest which is weird...

I agree with the bolded though.

Duncan isn't as good as Shaq offensively but he is a much better defender. Kobe and Gasol/Bynum have a great relationship, team unity wasn't great this year because of the new coach and lack of bench. Just because Shaq and Kobe didn't get along doesn't mean the same thing would happen with any other player.

[AnaheimRoyale]

Duncan is better, but then you'd be winning more titles because Duncan is better than either Shaq or Kobe, not because Kobe is better than Dr J.

[MisterWestside]

Duncan isn't as good as Shaq offensively but he is a much better defender.

Eh, Shaq's superior offense cancels out what Duncan does on defense.

The two are neck and neck as players though.

[An Unbiased Fan]

In 2006, Kobe passed alot of people in my rankings. The run he had from 2006-2010 is rather ridiculous when you think about. He basically averaged 30/5/5 on 55% TS, in both the regular season & playoffs, broke half the modern scoring records around, had 2.731 MVP shares, 2 rings/2 Finals MVPs, 5 All-NBA 1st teams, 5 All-D 1st teams. You can make a good case that he should have won 3 straight MVPs from 2006-2008.

[ThaRegul8r]

Shaq also only had problems with Kobe from 93-06.

Yeah, I mean, 13 years, that's nothing.

[MisterWestside]

You can make a good case that he should have won 3 straight MVPs from 2006-2008.

I would love to see it.

Dirk rightfully won the award in 2007, and Paul was robbed in 2008. Kobe's best case for the award was in 2006.