Is Joe's contract really that bad? Who could the Hawks get?

[monsterblock]

i mean, what does Joe's contract prevent the Hawks from doing?

if Joe signed a $90 million, 5 year contract, it would give no cap space (if cap is set at $58 million)

if Joe signed a $90 million, 6 year contract, it would give a $1.8 million cap space

so could the Hawks sign a player that could turn the whole team around with $1.8 million, and who is that player?

[Jamaaliver]

My biggest concerns with JJ and his contract are length and diminishing returns.
6 year committal to a 2nd tier player is unwise. JJ is approaching the end of his prime, but still is due $80 million+.

It made little sense for the ASG to lavish such a contract on a single player when it was Larry Drew's goal to diversify the offense in favor of a more balanced approach. We essentially gave JJ a massive raise & de-emphasized his importance.

From an economics perspective, I think of opportunity cost as well. We could have found a 13-17ppg scorer for massively less money than what JJ is paid.

We also already had scoring SGs on the roster in Jordan and Jamal Crawford. As featured scorers, they easily could have combined for 25+ ppg.

Worse case scenario: JJ walks away, we take a step back without a consistent goto scorer. Don't make the playoffs last year, and end up with a lottery pick where we find a young scorer for a fraction of what JJ makes.

Also, if you take JJ's $20 million off the books, (theoretically) that money could have been spent on a top flight coach which could have helped us with overall improved play. (Rick Adelman, Dwayne Casey, Avery Johnson)

Basically, his contract is a franchise altering event.

But, he will be tradeable in the last half of the contract.
He's still moderately prodcutive, consistent, healthy and a good teammate.
His expiring deal will be sought after in the next couple of seasons. We just need a GM with vision and creativity.

[monsterblock]

My biggest concerns with JJ and his contract are length and diminishing returns.
6 year committal to a 2nd tier player is unwise. JJ is approaching the end of his prime, but still is due $80 million+.

It made little sense for the ASG to lavish such a contract on a single player when it was Larry Drew's goal to diversify the offense in favor of a more balanced approach. We essentially gave JJ a massive raise & de-emphasized his importance.

that is what amnesty is for.... the point is moot

From an economics perspective, I think of opportunity cost as well. We could have found a 13-17ppg scorer for massively less money than what JJ is paid.

We also already had scoring SGs on the roster in Jordan and Jamal Crawford. As featured scorers, they easily could have combined for 25+ ppg.

Worse case scenario: JJ walks away, we take a step back without a consistent goto scorer. Don't make the playoffs last year, and end up with a lottery pick where we find a young scorer for a fraction of what JJ makes.

how is it taking a step backwards when even if Joe got paid $15 million per, it still wouldn't give the Hawks cap space (Deng and Iggy both get about $15 million per)

Also, if you take JJ's $20 million off the books, (theoretically) that money could have been spent on a top flight coach which could have helped us with overall improved play. (Rick Adelman, Dwayne Casey, Avery Johnson)

ASG has never shown themselves to be stingy. it is not a money thing, i think ASG are trying to find the next Scott Brooks, or Rick Carlisle (Which i agree with for a young team, but since the Hawks are vets now, i do think we should go with Sloan)

Basically, his contract is a franchise altering event.

no its not, this is just hiperbole. the only way this makes sense is if Josh walks and Joe's contract consumes his spot and Josh's spot (but then again, their is amnesty)

[ATL Boy]

Right now we could trade him

Manageable Trade: I bet Orlando would be interested in a deal of Joe for Hedo, Richardson, and Reddick as they wanna try anything to keep Dwight in Orlando

Other Trade: Joe for Amare but noone here wants to take any chances on Amare's uninsured contract and knees

Best Case Trade: Joe for Pau Gasol was thrown around this board a few times but I doubt Lakers do that.

[HMFFL]

that is what amnesty is for.... the point is moot

What makes you believe that the ASG are actually going to be willing to amnesty Joe Johnson and pay him basically for not providing us with a service?

ASG has never shown themselves to be stingy. it is not a money thing, i think ASG are trying to find the next Scott Brooks, or Rick Carlisle (Which i agree with for a young team, but since the Hawks are vets now, i do think we should go with Sloan)

Do you really believe that the ASG are trying to find the next Scott Brooks or Rick Carlisle? The ASG have given me no indications of that at all. They have been cheap when it comes to the Coaching staff, it appears that it's up to Rick Sund if he wants to return (free money for him if he does) next season, and the ASG have done nothing but pasted on quality Coaches/Management options.

[HMFFL]

Right now we could trade him

Manageable Trade: I bet Orlando would be interested in a deal of Joe for Hedo, Richardson, and Reddick as they wanna try anything to keep Dwight in Orlando

Other Trade: Joe for Amare but noone here wants to take any chances on Amare's uninsured contract and knees

Best Case Trade: Joe for Pau Gasol was thrown around this board a few times but I doubt Lakers do that.

I think a number of teams would be interested in Joe Johnson, but will the ASG let him go, and focus on finding a less expensive talent at the 2? Michael Jordan is starting to become desperate, buy season tickets next season, and get the following season for free. Charlotte desperately needs a face for the franchise. As cheap as Jordan is, I doubt any borderline star free agents intend on signing there, so Joe Johnson would be a good option for him.

Toronto: No borderline star will sign with them.
New York: If Amare Stoudemire is it, I would pass, but include Iman Shumpert, and I think things become more interesting.
Brooklyn: If Deron Williams decides he won't sign an extension, we must pursue a S&T, and see if he would be interested.
Dallas: Cuban is going to get desperate if he Deron Williams won't sign with Dallas. He already pursued a S&T for Joe Johnson during the past. They have very little to offer that's appealing.
Golden State: I would take Andris Biedrins, Richard Jefferson, and a future pick for Joe Johnson.
LA Lakers: I doubt LA would be interested. If so, they probably would want Joe Johnson and Josh Smith for Pau Gasol, Metta World Peace, and future pick(s). We could probably get them to include Jordan Hill.

[monsterblock]

Do you really believe that the ASG are trying to find the next Scott Brooks or Rick Carlisle? The ASG have given me no indications of that at all. They have been cheap when it comes to the Coaching staff, it appears that it's up to Rick Sund if he wants to return (free money for him if he does) next season, and the ASG have done nothing but pasted on quality Coaches/Management options.

if that is the case then other organizations should be held to the same standard, so by your logic it was cheap for:

Cavs signing Mike Brown
Pistons signing Carlisle
Thunder signing Brooks
Heat for signing Spoelstra
Bulls signing Thibs
Hawks for signing Woodson
Pacers for signing Vogel

your logic is just very weak

[Jamaaliver]

that is what amnesty is for.... the point is moot

<sigh>

I don't mind you debating the merits of my contribution to the conversation, but you have to at least provide logical reasoning behind your dissension.

RE: Amnesty
Right now, our payroll takes up the majority of our profits. So amnestying our highest paid player for $20 million/year and then going out and spending an additional $20 million/year for a negligible increase in production is unlikely.

Basically, we amnesty Joe who avg 19 ppg and 4 apg and bring in Deron Williams who avg 25 ppg and 10 apg (which is pretty unlikely)....we just spent $40 million for an extra 6 ppg and an extra 6 apg.

WHEN Joe signs with another team, it'll be a contender who pays him the minimal amount. We'll be on the hook for the remainder of his salary. He's guaranteed to get his money from us, so there would be no reason for a team to pay him top money.

So basically, we just paid $20 million+ per year for 6 ppg and 6 apg extra from Deron Williams. And we just paid Joe an additional $19 million dollars to avg 18 ppg for the Lakers.

As long as Joe is producing at an All Star rate, amnestying is not an option.

Monsterblock, you willing to pay $40 million for an extra 7 points per game?

[Jamaaliver]

Jamaaliver wrote:
Basically, his contract is a franchise altering event.

no its not, this is just hiperbole. the only way this makes sense is if Josh walks and Joe's contract consumes his spot and Josh's spot (but then again, their is amnesty)

JJ currently has the largest contract in the history of the franchise. Ever.

Come November, he will be the highest paid player in the city of Atlanta.

His contract was so burdensome, that the ASG subsequently was forced to sell the Atlanta Thrashers to Winnipeg. Why? Because JJ's contract was actually more than than the entire Thrasher's Payroll.

That is not hyperbole. Signing JJ altered the fortunes of the franchise and the Atlanta sports landscape.

[Jamaaliver]

From an economics perspective, I think of opportunity cost as well. We could have found a 13-17ppg scorer for massively less money than what JJ is paid.

We also already had scoring SGs on the roster in Jordan and Jamal Crawford. As featured scorers, they easily could have combined for 25+ ppg.

Worse case scenario: JJ walks away, we take a step back without a consistent goto scorer. Don't make the playoffs last year, and end up with a lottery pick where we find a young scorer for a fraction of what JJ makes.

how is it taking a step backwards when even if Joe got paid $15 million per, it still wouldn't give the Hawks cap space (Deng and Iggy both get about $15 million per)

Arron Afflalo scored 16 ppg this year and made $8million.
Lou Williams scored 15 ppg this year and made $5million.
Jamal Crawford scored 14 ppg this year and made $5million.
Nicholas Batum scored 14 ppg this year and made $2million.
Jordan Crawford scored 15 ppg this year and made $1.1million.

There was better value out there than paying a guy $20 million for 20 ppg. One guy was on our roster & provided relatively similar offensive production but made 5% of JJ's salary.

I'd have rather let JJ walk away for nothing and risk Jamal and Jordan filling in.
That's why we have a draft. To get younger, cheaper players to replace old expensive ones.

[monsterblock]

that is what amnesty is for.... the point is moot

<sigh>

I don't mind you debating the merits of my contribution to the conversation, but you have to at least provide logical reasoning behind your dissension.

RE: Amnesty
Right now, our payroll takes up the majority of our profits. So amnestying our highest paid player for $20 million/year and then going out and spending an additional $20 million/year for a negligible increase in production is unlikely.

Basically, we amnesty Joe who avg 19 ppg and 4 apg and bring in Deron Williams who avg 25 ppg and 10 apg (which is pretty unlikely)....we just spent $40 million for an extra 6 ppg and an extra 6 apg.

WHEN Joe signs with another team, it'll be a contender who pays him the minimal amount. We'll be on the hook for the remainder of his salary. He's guaranteed to get his money from us, so there would be no reason for a team to pay him top money.

So basically, we just paid $20 million+ per year for 6 ppg and 6 apg extra from Deron Williams. And we just paid Joe an additional $19 million dollars to avg 18 ppg for the Lakers.

As long as Joe is producing at an All Star rate, amnestying is not an option.

Monsterblock, you willing to pay $40 million for an extra 7 points per game?

when did i ever say amnesty Joe NOW?!?!?!

i always said that Joe will make 3 more all stars and to amnesty him in his 5th or 6th year.

but if the ASG have the extra cash, then they could amnesty Joe when ever they want, the ASG has never shown themselves to be stingy. it is their money, not mine.

[monsterblock]

Jamaaliver wrote:
Basically, his contract is a franchise altering event.

no its not, this is just hiperbole. the only way this makes sense is if Josh walks and Joe's contract consumes his spot and Josh's spot (but then again, their is amnesty)

JJ currently has the largest contract in the history of the franchise. Ever.

Come November, he will be the highest paid player in the city of Atlanta.

His contract was so burdensome, that the ASG subsequently was forced to sell the Atlanta Thrashers to Winnipeg. Why? Because JJ's contract was actually more than than the entire Thrasher's Payroll.

That is not hyperbole. Signing JJ altered the fortunes of the franchise and the Atlanta sports landscape.

you are really grasping as straws if you are literally saying "it is Joe's fault that the Thrashers left"?!?!?!

less dumber people know that the Thrashers left, BECAUSE NOBODY WENT TO THE GAMES. their is a reason why hockey in the south struggle.

and you are just dumb in a special way if you think Joe has an influence on the Falcons and Braves

[monsterblock]

From an economics perspective, I think of opportunity cost as well. We could have found a 13-17ppg scorer for massively less money than what JJ is paid.

We also already had scoring SGs on the roster in Jordan and Jamal Crawford. As featured scorers, they easily could have combined for 25+ ppg.

Worse case scenario: JJ walks away, we take a step back without a consistent goto scorer. Don't make the playoffs last year, and end up with a lottery pick where we find a young scorer for a fraction of what JJ makes.

how is it taking a step backwards when even if Joe got paid $15 million per, it still wouldn't give the Hawks cap space (Deng and Iggy both get about $15 million per)

Arron Afflalo scored 16 ppg this year and made $8million.
Lou Williams scored 15 ppg this year and made $5million.
Jamal Crawford scored 14 ppg this year and made $5million.
Nicholas Batum scored 14 ppg this year and made $2million.
Jordan Crawford scored 15 ppg this year and made $1.1million.

There was better value out there than paying a guy $20 million for 20 ppg. One guy was on our roster & provided relatively similar offensive production but made 5% of JJ's salary.

I'd have rather let JJ walk away for nothing and risk Jamal and Jordan filling in.
That's why we have a draft. To get younger, cheaper players to replace old expensive ones.

Jordan Crawford is a scrub in DC but i do like Jamal, as much as you want to push your agenda, Jamal/Jordan at SG or Joe at SG doesn't get the Hawks out of the second round, so with everything still being the same, the point again is moot.

i wanted the Hawks to get Wesley Matthews, but i don't like it when people call the ASG cheap, it doesn't make any sense, i hate just hate hyperbole and propaganda which is what we get with people who have agendas and don't know facts.

whether you like Joe or not, 15 million per is a fair price for him and 1.8 million in cap doesn't get the Hawks a center.

[Jamaaliver]

[you are really grasping as straws if you are literally saying "it is Joe's fault that the Thrashers left"?!?!?!

less dumber people know that the Thrashers left, BECAUSE NOBODY WENT TO THE GAMES. their is a reason why hockey in the south struggle.

and you are just dumb in a special way if you think Joe has an influence on the Falcons and Braves

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2011/06/09/how-joe-johnson-unwittingly-ran-the-thrashers-out-of-town/

Mark Bradley writes: Owing to his new contract, [JJ] makes $20 million a year. The sale of the Thrashers will bank a net $110 million for the Spirit, which is $10 million less than they paid to keep Johnson through 2016. As simplistic as it may be to say that one basketball player had a direct effect on a hockey team … well, check those numbers.

Let's just say I'm not the only person to come to that conclusion.

Again from an economics standpoint, the city was making additional money from having a 4th sports franchise in town. The biggest influx being the hotel tax, parking fees, sales tax, Marta fees, income tax on employees working those extra home games at Phillips arena.

Those taxes could have helped to ease the burden on a new outdoor stadium the Falcons are seeking or even renovations for the Georgia Dome next door. That's millions in lost income over the next few years since the Thrashers have gone.

The ASG sold the Thrashers less than a year after signing JJ to the richest contract in franchise history.

There are wide ranging effects to every major decision a million dollar company makes.

[Jamaaliver]

Jordan Crawford is a scrub in DC but i do like Jamal, as much as you want to push your agenda, Jamal/Jordan at SG or Joe at SG doesn't get the Hawks out of the second round, so with everything still being the same, the point again is moot.

i don't like it when people call the ASG cheap, it doesn't make any sense, i hate just hate hyperbole and propaganda which is what we get with people who have agendas and don't know facts.

whether you like Joe or not, 15 million per is a fair price for him and 1.8 million in cap doesn't get the Hawks a center.

1. I actually REALLY like JJ as a player. And market value for him is around that amount. But when he doesn't sell tickets as a top flight player (like Josh who makes less $$$) or put up top flight numbers (like Wade or Lebron who each make less $$$), and there are guys who put up similar numbers for much less money, it just goes to show how overpaid he is.

2. Jamal/Jordan at SG doesn't get us out of the 2nd round. We both agree here. But if we're saving $17million and getting the same result, it's a big deal. It's NOT a moot point. That $17 million could be used in scouting, coaching, other positions of need (like Center) or amenities that could attract Free Agents.

3. The ASG as cheap: eh. IDK. Obviously they have limits on payroll because they have limited income, they spent a fortune on legal fees the last decade with the Belkin fiasco. They overpay players, but then hire the cheapest HC on the market. They frequently sell draft picks (1st and 2nd rounders) for cash to offset operating costs. They even put off getting the HD message Boards in Philips arena fixed until the AJC brought attention to it. They aren't so much cheap as poor. Very, very poor.

[pja123]

This was mentioned earlier, but I think the Warriors (with new management looking to make a splash) would strongly consider swapping RJ/Biendrins/Thompson for Johnson. That deal makes sense for both sides. Warriors get an all-star wing player to pair with Curry and Bogut. Hawks save some money and get a rebuilding piece in Thompson.

[evildallas]

i mean, what does Joe's contract prevent the Hawks from doing?

if Joe signed a $90 million, 5 year contract, it would give no cap space (if cap is set at $58 million)

if Joe signed a $90 million, 6 year contract, it would give a $1.8 million cap space

so could the Hawks sign a player that could turn the whole team around with $1.8 million, and who is that player?

Yes, it is that bad because of the potential luxury tax next year. Because of that it is unlikely that the Hawks can afford to resign Josh Smith. It also means that they likely can't trade Josh Smith for someone to play center like Pau Gasol.

[td00]

I'm in the same think tank that says the ASG isn't cheap....they are just poor at making decisions.

No one has mentioned Marvin and that disastrous leverage he was given.

I can see why the ASG signed Joe, but by far the better decision would have been to roll with JC1 and JC2.

Someone tell me who has improved since LD has taken over......I don't see anyone and LD lucked into having Teague on the roster.

LD isn't a leader; he's a caretaker who won't hold his players accountable....pat them on the butt and tell them there's always tomorrow.

One of the 3 captains has to go to move forward, and truthfully, I don't care what you get for them. Your goal should bed to free up salary to bring in more overall quality or you keep the roster cheaper and hire a real leader.

The ASG will do neither as they let Sund sit around on vacation and dwell on if he has a 33rd year in him to play solitaire.