When Did Kobe Pass Dr.J On Your Rankings And Why/How?

AnaheimRoyale · Post #61 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 6:54 am

2008 was a wacky MVP year, but one thing is clear, Kobe didn't deserve it. The front runner all year was KG. Then he got hurt, and voters said "yeh, we can't give it to the guy who played 66 games" so they searched around and said "Kobe, he hasn't got one yet!", ignoring the fact that KG had been front runner until recently, without any of Kobe's stat power, because of how he was helping his team win. Paul was doing even more than KG that year (this was pre-surgery, so the guy was even faster than he is now), and got jobbed because people gave Kobe the seniority nod. More ridiculous still, Lebron was disqualified because despite having better stats and a worse team than Kobe his team "didn't win 50 games", even though they won 45, and went 0-7 in games Lebron missed. Unbelievable. The only reason Kobe's team even won more than Paul was because he got Pau Gasol, and they then went on a tear to close the season with Pau.

ShaqsLakers · Post #62 » by **ShaqsLakers** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 6:58 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:2008 was a wacky MVP year, but one thing is clear, Kobe didn't deserve it. The front runner all year was KG. Then he got hurt, and voters said "yeh, we can't give it to the guy who played 66 games" so they searched around and said "Kobe, he hasn't got one yet!", ignoring the fact that KG had been front runner until recently, without any of Kobe's stat power, because of how he was helping his team win. Paul was doing even more than KG that year (this was pre-surgery, so the guy was even faster than he is now), and got jobbed because people gave Kobe the seniority nod. More ridiculous still, Lebron was disqualified because despite having better stats and a worse team than Kobe his team "didn't win 50 games", even though they won 45, and went 0-7 in games Lebron missed. Unbelievable. The only reason Kobe's team even won more than Paul was because he got Pau Gasol, and they then went on a tear to close the season with Pau.

This. There was never a year were Kobe was clearly the best player in the league.

MisterWestside · Post #63 » by **MisterWestside** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 7:43 am

Asianiac_24 wrote:IMO, it is fair to hold CP3's team record against him in 08 because he had a a good supporting cast.

So that means you also disqualify Kobe for the award. After all, having Gasol/Odom/a healthy Bynum/still productive Derek Fisher in the lineup is a good supporting cast...

Mo26 · Post #64 » by **Mo26** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 8:48 am

Except for the fact that the Lakers were the most injury-riddled team in the league while the Hornets had amazing health....and Kobe still led his team to the better record. CP3 has no case.

Mo26 · Post #65 » by **Mo26** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 8:52 am

SDChargers#1 wrote:People do realize that the year Dr. J won his title in the NBA, he wasn't even the best player on his own team as well.

Dr. J averaged a very good 21/7/4 on 56.6% TS

Moses Malone averaged 25/15 on 57.8% TS

Then in the playoffs,

Dr. J averaged 18/8/3 on 50% TS

Moses Malone averaged 26/16 on 59% TS

Dr. J wasn't even as good as Kobe during the first title year in that season. Yet people give Kobe **** for playing with Shaq.

The most disrespected and discredited superstar in history. It's ridiculous.

MisterWestside · Post #66 » by **MisterWestside** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 8:55 am

Mo26 wrote:Except for the fact that the Lakers were the most injury-riddled team in the league while the Hornets had amazing health....and Kobe still led his team to the better record. CP3 has no case.

So you absolutely agree that Dirk was MVP in 2007 then, and Kobe had no case. Good to know.

Mo26 · Post #67 » by **Mo26** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 8:59 am

If it was a "best player in basketball" award he would have it in 2006,2007, and 2008. Yup.

MisterWestside · Post #68 » by **MisterWestside** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 9:12 am

Mo26 wrote:If it was a "best player in basketball" award he would have it in 2006,2007, and 2008. Yup.

But we're talking about MVP. And Dirk had the best record. So how was Kobe possibly the MVP when he couldn't even get the best record? And yet you hold CP3's record against him?

Ah, I got it now. You're a Kobe homer. You contradict your "criteria" for greatness to suit Kobe's needs. Got it.

ShaqsLakers · Post #69 » by **ShaqsLakers** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 9:21 am

Mo26 wrote:If it was a "best player in basketball" award he would have it in 2006,2007, and 2008. Yup.

Lebron was already a better basketball player the Kobe ever was '06-'08

AnaheimRoyale · Post #70 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 9:35 am

Kobe wasn't even better than Lebron in 08. In 09 and 10 Lebron hit another gear and left Kobe in the dust.

ShaqsLakers · Post #71 » by **ShaqsLakers** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 9:38 am

AnaheimRoyale wrote:Kobe wasn't even better than Lebron in 08. In 09 and 10 Lebron hit another gear and left Kobe in the dust.

This. The league felt sorry for Kobe and gave him MVP in '08. Lebron, CP3 and KG were all clearly better.

Mo26 · Post #72 » by **Mo26** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:39 am

MisterWestside wrote:
Mo26 wrote:If it was a "best player in basketball" award he would have it in 2006,2007, and 2008. Yup.

But we're talking about MVP. And Dirk had the best record. So how was Kobe possibly the MVP when he couldn't even get the best record? And yet you hold CP3's record against him?

Ah, I got it now. You're a Kobe homer. You contradict your "criteria" for greatness to suit Kobe's needs. Got it.

What are you talking about?I never said Kobe should have been MVP in 2007. Obviously, team record plays a big part, which is why Kobe was so deserving in 2008. Took the most injury-riddled team in the league to #1 seed in the toughest conference ever. Beast.

And how can YOU accuse anyone of being a homer. :lol:

SMH.

Warspite · Post #73 » by **Warspite** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:42 am

C-izMe wrote:I find that this argument is split between people who value the ABA as much as the NBA and people who don't. I personally don't know how to feel because (arguably) four of the best 5 players playing basketball were in the ABA (Kareem, Dr. J, Artis Gilmore, Moses Malone who wasn't quite there yet, and George Gervin) and they had other greats like Connie Hawkins for example. At the same time the numbers were obviously inflated due to their break neck pace and wide range of talent. If there are any posters who were alive in the days of the ABA I would like to know if the ABA and NBA were equals.

Pace in the ABA was the same as the NBA. In fact theres a bigger varience from slowest to fastest team in 2007 than there was in the NBA/ABA of 1975. The fact is that about 30 of the top 50 players in the world played in the ABA in 6-9 team league.

For the most part if you treat the ABA and NBA like we currently do the Western and Eastern conferances you get a pretty close estimation of the 2 leagues. The big differance is that the wing players played in the ABA and the bigs played in the NBA.

The ABA played much more of a modern game. They had a 3pt line for example.

People who attack DrJ for the most part do so from ignorance or with a dubius agenda. Facts for the honest open minded players

1. DrJ was traded to the 76ers on opening day of 1976-77 season. He didnt have a training camp, preseason nor did his coaching staff/front office to design an offense or team around him.

2. He was traded to a team with an allstar SG, SF, PF (former MVP). Much like LBJ going to the Heat with Bosh, Wade and Joe Johnson. Its only logical for LBJ to have a stat drop off playing with Wade, Bosh and Joe Johnson. As long as his team is successfull LBJs stat drop off should be lauded. DrJ of course took his team to the NBA Finals.

IMHO the ABA was the better league of the 2 during DrJs peak. It had fewer teams and more allstar talent. The dilution argument doesnt hold any weight when you consider Kobe played in a 30 team league while there were never more than 24 professional teams in the 70s and of course this is the same time frame in which the baby boomers were playing professional sports. So you had more young men playing basketball than you do today.

The Infamous1 · Post #74 » by **The Infamous1** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 1:02 pm

This isn't really close, especially if we're talking about strictly NBA careers. By the end of Bryant's career this will be laughable(as it is now)

microfib4thewin · Post #75 » by **microfib4thewin** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 2:21 pm

If you want to decide the MVP by team record, then KG would have won in 08. If you want to decide by how great the individual player was, then CP3(21.1/4/11.6/2.7 STL) or Lebron(30/7.9/7.2) would have won it.

As for 06 and 07, that depends on how much you value scoring at average efficiency. Take 06, Kobe was shooting 45% from the field, the Lakers was shooting 45%, and the league was also shooting at 45% overall. You can certainly argue that his efficiency is higher than the league average because he draws fouls very well, but how much value do you put on a player who draws fouls very well but is otherwise just a high volume shooter who doesn't shoot better than the league average? In 07, he curbed his usage and the Lakers still have the same offensive rating as last year. While there are variables such as roster changes as well as games missed due to injury, it is questionable just how much Kobe's volume shooting benefits his team.

Kobe and Dr J is very close, and the only reasons people put Kobe way ahead is because of '5 rings' and 'ABA'.

Post #76 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 3:12 pm

Drawing fouls is just as important as the ability to shoot 3's in affecting efficiency relative to fg%. If you are getting 3 points per shot attempted at 45% that's a HUGE advantage over a player getting only 2 points per shot . . . even if the player getting 2 points per shot shoots 55%!

It's about getting points per possession, not so much about how you get them.

MisterWestside · Post #77 » by **MisterWestside** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 3:14 pm

Mo26 wrote:I never said Kobe should have been MVP in 2007.

You still didn't admit that Dirk deserved the award though, instead you started talking about giving Kobe a award for "best basketball player" :lol:

Dirk WAS the best basketball player that year regardless of your ever-changing criteria.

And no, I'm no homer. I don't keep changing the goalposts so my favorite player comes out on top :lol:

SMH.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #78 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 4:04 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
Mo26 wrote:I never said Kobe should have been MVP in 2007.

You still didn't admit that Dirk deserved the award though, instead you started talking about giving Kobe a award for "best basketball player" Dirk WAS the best basketball player that year regardless of your ever-changing criteria.

And no, I'm no homer. I don't keep changing the goalposts so my favorite player comes out on top SMH.

Kobe was the best player in 2007, but that's not even what the MVP is based on. Kobe was more valuable to the Lakers than Dirk was to the Mavs in 2007. Kobe pretty much had to do everything for that team, and did it at a historic level. The only reason Dirk won was because of the Mavs record that year.

MisterWestside · Post #79 » by **MisterWestside** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 4:14 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:The only reason Dirk won was because of the Mavs record that year.

I thought that's what Kobe fans advocate though :lol:

How could Kobe have been better when Dirk "won" more?

Or does that rule only apply when it favors Kobe?

An Unbiased Fan · Post #80 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sat Jun 2, 2012 4:20 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:The only reason Dirk won was because of the Mavs record that year.

I thought that's what Kobe fans advocate though How could Kobe have been better when Dirk "won" more?

Or does that rule only apply when it favors Kobe?

Again, the Celtics had the best record in 2008, so I would be pushing KG for MVP if it were about best record. You're all over the place bro.