When Did Kobe Pass Dr.J On Your Rankings And Why/How?

[LAKERS_1981]

Kobe got over Dr J in 2001 playoffs for me.

Kobe peak was better, he is a better shooter, better carrer, mutch better D.

Kobe was a allstar on 2000 team
Kobe was a superstar , leader on 2001 team and he had epic playoffs
Kobe was a superstar, leader on 2002 team
Kobe was a superstar, leader and best player on 2009 team
Kobe was a superstar, leader and best player on 2010 team

Kobe was just a Pippen on that 2000 team.
But after that he was a alpha dog just like Shaq.

[ElGee]

2008 was a wacky MVP year, but one thing is clear, Kobe didn't deserve it. The front runner all year was KG. Then he got hurt, and voters said "yeh, we can't give it to the guy who played 66 games" so they searched around and said "Kobe, he hasn't got one yet!", ignoring the fact that KG had been front runner until recently, without any of Kobe's stat power, because of how he was helping his team win. Paul was doing even more than KG that year (this was pre-surgery, so the guy was even faster than he is now), and got jobbed because people gave Kobe the seniority nod. More ridiculous still, Lebron was disqualified because despite having better stats and a worse team than Kobe his team "didn't win 50 games", even though they won 45, and went 0-7 in games Lebron missed. Unbelievable. The only reason Kobe's team even won more than Paul was because he got Pau Gasol, and they then went on a tear to close the season with Pau.

KG didn't play 66 games. He played 71...making the whole thing more egregious. I agree it was a career award they gave to Kobe (KG was my MVP, pretty handily), but the narrative shift was "whoever won the brutal, difficult, balanced west." To consider how silly it was, people were saying MVP came down to the Hornets-Lakers game in Staples at the end of the year. I'm not sure if those voters should be stripped of their credentials or simply have their brains researched by science.

[ElGee]

People do realize that the year Dr. J won his title in the NBA, he wasn't even the best player on his own team as well.

Dr. J averaged a very good 21/7/4 on 56.6% TS

Moses Malone averaged 25/15 on 57.8% TS

Then in the playoffs,

Dr. J averaged 18/8/3 on 50% TS

Moses Malone averaged 26/16 on 59% TS

Dr. J wasn't even as good as Kobe during the first title year in that season. Yet people give Kobe **** for playing with Shaq.

What's the point here? The only people who give Kobe flack for playing winning with Shaq are Ring counters. Everyone else is just interested in how well they played basketball.

[Mo26]

You still didn't admit that Dirk deserved the award though, instead you started talking about giving Kobe a award for "best basketball player" Dirk WAS the best basketball player that year regardless of your ever-changing criteria.

No, I don't have a problem with him winning MVP. He fits the established criteria. But yeah, he definitely was not better than Kobe.

And if there was a "best player" award Kobe would have got it.

32/6/5/2/58% TS. 37/5/5/57% TS over the second half of the year. 10 different 50+ point games. 20 40+point games.

Beast.

And no, I'm no homer.

[Mo26]

lol @ KG getting MVP in 08 when his team went 9-2 without him and he only played 33 MPG. Compared to Kobe, who played all 82 games and 40 MPG. Also had better numbers. KG had no case.

lol @ these morons saying Kobe wasn't deserving or it was a "career" award. Bunch of idiots.

[The Infamous1]

Kobe had the most underrated MVP season ever

28/6/5 with All NBA 1st team Defense, Leading the Lakers to the best record(15 game improvement) in the most competitive WCF ever with none of his teammates making the all star team. What MVP's in history can you say that about?

And thats With his starting center Out from February on, One of the biggest no brainer MVP's ever

Bryant was the best player that year and FAR and AWAY the best player in that Postseason also

2008 playoffs
30.1 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.6 apg 48fg% 30%3P 81%FT 58TS% 51eFG%

[Mo26]

Kobe had the most underrated MVP season ever

28/6/5 with All NBA 1st team Defense, Leading the Lakers to the best record(15 game improvement) in the most competitive WCF ever with none of his teammates making the all star game. What MVP's in history can you say that about?

And thats With his starting center Out from February on, One of the biggest no brainer MVP's ever

Bryant was the best player that year and FAR and AWAY the best player in that Postseason also

2008 playoffs
30.1 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.6 apg 48fg% 30%3P 81%FT 58TS% 51eFG%

This. And Pau for only 27 games as well.

[MisterWestside]

But yeah, he definitely was not better than Kobe.

Yes he was, he "won" more. A lot more. Your "empty" stats mean nothing when Dirk was the better winner that season.

You're supposed to award "winners", not stats. Or does this only apply when a player that has better stats is compared to Kobe?

[JingoWolf]

Kobe was never "clearly" the best player in the league.

He had arguments for that title in 06 and 07 and thats it and really only in 06 did he have a strong argument and still Nash was so brilliant that year its hard not say he was the better player.

CP3 was simply a much better player in 08 and led an inferior team to a similar record.
It's a joke that he didn't win the MVP that year.

I dont call a 15/10/5 Odom + some good roleplayers and then a Prime Gasol + more elite roleplayers towards the end of the year a bad supporting cast.
Anything to prop up Kobe though I suppose.

To be fair though giving him the 08 MVP wasn't even 1/10th as bad as some of his more recent 1st team NBA awards and All-D honors.

Building up his legacy makes the league money though so its hard not to blame them.
It's the same reason he was "given" Gasol's 2010 FMVP award.

[MisterWestside]

Again, the Celtics had the best record in 2008, so I would be pushing KG for MVP if it were about best record. You're all over the place bro.

What you said earlier:

You can make a good case that Kobe should have won 3 straight MVPs from 2006-2008.

Except in 2007, Dirk's record was 67-15. Kobe's was 42-40.

If you penailize CP3 for not having a better record than Kobe in 2008, then Kobe should have NO case for winning MVP in 2007. Or 2006.

[MisterWestside]

Kobe was never "clearly" the best player in the league.

He had arguments for that title in 06 and 07 and thats it and really only in 06 did he have a strong argument and still Nash was so brilliant that year its hard not say he was the better player.

CP3 was simply a much better player in 08 and led an inferior team to a similar record.
It's a joke that he didn't win the MVP that year.

I dont call a 15/10/5 Odom + some good roleplayers and then a Prime Gasol + more elite roleplayers towards the end of the year a bad supporting cast.
Anything to prop up Kobe though I suppose.

To be fair though giving him the 08 MVP wasn't even 1/10th as bad as some of his more recent 1st team NBA awards and All-D honors.

Building up his legacy makes the league money though so its hard not to blame them.
It's the same reason he was "given" Gasol's 2010 FMVP award.

I'm just laughing at these posters with their changing criteria. You're not allowed to post the numbers and say that LeBron is a better player (not MVP, PLAYER) than Kobe. Their rebuttal? "Kobe won more that season." "It's about winning, not stats." "Stats are empty/irrelevant/meaningless."

But, in seasons when Kobe wasn't winning jack and was being routinely bounced from the first round of the playoffs, he was still somehow a "better player" than those who won more. AND they post stats to prove their point

[An Unbiased Fan]

Again, the Celtics had the best record in 2008, so I would be pushing KG for MVP if it were about best record. You're all over the place bro.

What you said earlier:

You can make a good case that Kobe should have won 3 straight MVPs from 2006-2008.

Except in 2007, Dirk's record was 67-15. Kobe's was 42-40.

If you penailize CP3 for not having a better record than Kobe in 2008, then Kobe should have NO case for winning MVP in 2007. Or 2006.

I penalized CP3 for choking away HCA down the stretch. That's more about play in critical games than record. I also pointed out that Paul had a healthy team with an All-Star David West, and Chandler as the defensive anchor. Peja gave them 17 PPG on 58% TS, and Mo Pete was great from long distance.

In contrast, Bynum played only 35 games for LA, and Pau only played 27 games. Think about that. Odom was a decent starter at 14/10, but that's a far cry from David West, and more on par with Peja. After that, you have Fisher as the only other guy with double digit scoring. Sorry, but I don't think a bench of Walton, Sasha, Farmar, Vlad Rad, as that good.

Kobe was the MVP

[JingoWolf]

Regular season PER (08)
CP3 : 30
Kobe : 25

Kobe's 08 Regular season was probably not even Top 5 @ his postion for the 00 Decade.

Even if you think Kobe had a worse supporting cast (I don't think he did) CP3 was simply a much, much greater player, playing a level few in the history of the game at his position have ever matched.

No way Kobe deserved that MVP.

[MisterWestside]

I penalized CP3 for choking away HCA down the stretch. That's more about play in critical games than record. I also pointed out that Paul had a healthy team with an All-Star David West, and Chandler as the defensive anchor. Peja gave them 17 PPG on 58% TS, and Mo Pete was great from long distance.

In contrast, Bynum played only 35 games for LA, and Pau only played 27 games. Think about that. Odom was a decent starter at 14/10, but that's a far cry from David West, and more on par with Peja. After that, you have Fisher as the only other guy with double digit scoring. Sorry, but I don't think a bench of Walton, Sasha, Farmar, Vlad Rad, as that good.

Kobe was the MVP

Forget 2008, what about 2007. Dirk didn't "choke" away HCA that season, so how does Kobe get a good case for MVP when Dirk was sitting on top of the West? And Kobe was at the 7 seed?

[RocketPower23]

Regular season PER (08)
CP3 : 30
Kobe : 25

Kobe's 08 Regular season was probably not even Top 5 @ his postion for the 00 Decade.

Even if you think Kobe had a worse supporting cast (I don't think he did) CP3 was simply a much, much greater player, playing a level few in the history of the game at his position have ever matched.

No way Kobe deserved that MVP.

That's their Playoffs PER. Paul's regular season PER was 28, Bryant's was 24. The only year Paul averaged a PER of 30 would be the following year.

If you want to argue that someone else was worthy of an MVP, fair game. To say Kobe didn't deserve it is a hyperbolic statement. Was the media influenced by giving it to Kobe as "career achievement" award; maybe. I don't care about that, that's just a narrative that people like to bring up as a means to somehow discredit Kobe. Bryant was worthy of the MVP that season and was fine selection.

[JingoWolf]

That's their Playoffs PER. Paul's regular season PER was 28, Bryant's was 24. The only year Paul averaged a PER of 30 would be the following year.

Oh... damn you're right.
The gap is still similar though since 08 Kobe had a 24PER not a 25PER.

slightly smaller but still all my points stand the same.

I do feel like Paul was clearly the better and more valuable player that year.

Was Bryant unworthy...? not really but Paul in my eyes had a better case.

[AnaheimRoyale]

KG fans shouldn't get too uppity about it though, because if Duncan hadn't played 69 games in 2004 then KG doesn't win the MVP that year, so it balances out. The 2 guys who should be most annoyed are Chris Paul and Lebron, who were my top 2 candidates (I didn't underrate the Celtics support cast anymore by seasons end).

NB- got the 66 games Duncan missed in 05 mixed up with KG, since both were on my mind. Clearly the point is the same, KG was disqualified from voters mind for the wrong reason (the reason should have been the sudden realisation his support cast was maybe the deepest we've seen for a star since the 80's)... mind you, he still should have beat out Kobe easily.

[ElGee]

NB- got the 66 games Duncan missed in 05 mixed up with KG, since both were on my mind. Clearly the point is the same, KG was disqualified from voters mind for the wrong reason (the reason should have been the sudden realisation his support cast was maybe the deepest we've seen for a star since the 80's)... mind you, he still should have beat out Kobe easily.

While I don't think this outlandish at first glance, do you mean absolute team quality or relative to the league? Have you looked into this in detail?

The Celtics were a good team, no doubt -- +4.4 per 100 in huge minutes without KG -- but KG was MVP because they were a SOLID 70-win+ team with him in the game. That's bonkers dude. (Not saying those numbers exhibit true "values," but just based on them alone as a starting point you have a really good supporting cast going to all-time territory.) They CRUSHED the league with Kevin Garnett on the court,

[AnaheimRoyale]

They were the deepest support cast any star had in years, relative to the competition, and probably just full stop. I guess a few might compare, but those few who do are few and far between, and probably don't have a star as talented as KG. It's hard to overstate that team, the starting 5 was two still in their prime franchise players, a young budding all-star talent PG, K.Perkins (a fantastic big man role player, especially for this team), then off the bench they had a tonne of great role players; Tony Allen, Sam Cassell, Posey, PJ Brown, even guys like E.House, L.Powe and Big Baby knew their roles and excelled in them for limited minutes.

At the time they came together, people didn't realise how good some of these guys were of course (Perkins and Rondo were underrated/unknown, same with Tony Allen who is now validated as an all-defensive player), but in retrospect it's not at all surprising they played so well.

[ElGee]

Hmmm. That's not what I was looking for. :/ I meant have you actually tried to research supporting casts or is this just a blanket impression you have?

And you are either a little off in your memory or are just exaggerating about some of these players.

-Sam Cassell joined the team at the end of the year and was essentially a non factor.
-PJ Brown joined the team at the end of the year, although he was good in the PS
-Big Baby was actually not as far along as Powe at that point in time. Mentioning him here is, well, why are you mentioning him here?
-Powe was a 6-7 offensive pinball who got to the line like crazy in limited minutes and did everything he could to attack while on the court. It's hard to call him a great role player by any stretch given his inconsistent minutes in the lineup and general lack of defensive ability.
-Lumping Eddie House in with these two in frankly bizarre since his shooting/spacing were integral parts of the team at many times and he played many late minutes over Rondo, depending on the matchup
-Rondo at that point in time was so far and away from a "budding all-star talent" I don't even know how to reasonably address this. He was 21 that year and it was toward of the end of 2009 that he really started to come on.

As evidenced by this exchange, most people don't have a very good grasp on individual player ability, yet alone the interactive sum of those parts, which is why trying to evaluate every player on a team and then minus it's best player is a horrible way to infer the impact of said player. The better way is to evaluate the team strengths as a whole -- try to get a gauge on the interactive effects taking place on the team -- and examine each player's performance in that context (or multiple contexts).