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MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins

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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#21 » by SWedd523 » Sat Jun 2, 2012 9:55 pm

Walt Cronkite wrote:Felton at 5 and Ammo at 3 were suspect picks at the time. I think the Felton/May UNC gimmick has gone a long way to make us seem like a joke as far as drafting goes. We also apparently caved to LB and took DJ when we already had an ok pg and needed a big guy, after allegedly telling Brook Lopez we were going to take him. Also we selected Ajinca with a 1st rounder.

We have a reputation as an inept team at drafting for a pretty good reason.


The team got good draft grades from most pundits for the Ammo draft. Of course hindsight is going to make it look bad, but at the time, it wasn't considered suspect. A player like Ammo is going to be controversial anyway.

As for Ajinca, I don't understand how you could factor in a 20th pick as evidence for a bad drafting team. The last 10 20th picks:

Donatas Motiejunas
James Anderson
Eric Maynor
Alexis Ajinca
Jason Smith
Renaldo Balkman
Julius Hodge
Jameer Nelson
Dahntay Jones
Kareem Rush


Not exactly what you'd consider top shelf talent.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#22 » by Kabookalu » Sat Jun 2, 2012 9:59 pm

Walt Cronkite wrote:BRoy is a new one to me. He didn't want to work out for our franchise so we didn't consider him. We've always heard MJ preferred Gay.


Actually it may have been Gay, my mistake.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#23 » by KembaWalker » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:00 pm

I'm not sure why people ever thought he did considering he wasn't even a member of the front office but 2 weeks before that draft. The scouting work/workouts/interviews were already long done before he got there
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#24 » by Walt Cronkite » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:01 pm

I was totally against the Ammo pick, so maybe my memory is faulty, but I feel like the Ammo selection was "graded" as average more often than good. You can factor in the Ajinca pick because it was another first rounder that didn't work.

Would you consider our draft history a good one?

edit: Eh, I guess you're right. ESPN and SI gave us a B+ or something, DX an A. DX had the balls to call Morrison "certainly the best player in the draft". My perspective was tainted by what I was sure would be a regrettable selection.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#25 » by Walt Cronkite » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:04 pm

KembaWalker wrote:I'm not sure why people ever thought he did considering he wasn't even a member of the front office but 2 weeks before that draft. The scouting work/workouts/interviews were already long done before he got there


I was a total MJ homer growing up, but most diehard NBA fans weren't, because his success came at the expense of their club and he was kindof a jerk. Anytime you can throw dirt at someone you've disliked for decades, you do it.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#26 » by SWedd523 » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:15 pm

Walt Cronkite wrote:I was totally against the Ammo pick, so maybe my memory is faulty, but I feel like the Ammo selection was "graded" as average more often than good. You can factor in the Ajinca pick because it was another first rounder that didn't work.

Would you consider our draft history a good one?

I just did a quick search and this is what I got going down the links

From SI:
New boss Michael Jordan is a gambler, so it's not surprising that he rolled the dice on a guy who could be either a huge star or a huge bust. MJ opted for the potential "next Larry Bird" over the raw potential of Gay. After Jordan's experience with Kwame Brown, who can blame him? Morrison is a gifted scorer who should fit well with Gerald Wallace, Emeka Okafor and Raymond Felton, and he'll surely give the 'Cats some much-needed box office appeal. But can the 'Stache defend on the NBA level?
B+

From Yahoo:
Forward Adam Morrison of Gonzaga is a great pickup for Charlotte, who is looking for a few more young pieces to make a solid nucleus for the next dozen or so years. In 2006, expect Morrison to develop into a team leader and a dynamic presence on the Bobcats roster.
2006 NBA Draft Grade: B

From Draft Express:
Charlotte Bobcats

Picks: Picks: Adam Morrison (3); Ryan Hollins (50)

A

The Bobcats made out with what is certainly the best player in the draft right now, as well as possibly the best player down the road as well. Adam Morrison fills their needs perfectly on the wing with his scoring ability and should be a perfect compliment to Gerald Wallace’s versatility to defend either swing position equally well. Morrison’s winning attitude, work ethic and incredibly high skill level will be well appreciated by Charlotte’s staff, so it’s really difficult to see how they could have made out any better here.

Getting anything out of the #50 pick in what appears to be a fairly shallow draft depth-wise would be great, and Ryan Hollins certainly has all the tools to develop into a contributor after some seasoning in the NBDL. Whether that will happen after an underwhelming college career is up for debate, but there is no risk in taking a freakishly long and athletic 7-footer where they did in the draft.

Charlotte has made almost all the right moves over the past few years in terms of the group they’ve assembled at the moment, and could be ready to finally splurge on a free agent or two to add some depth and experience to help make a playoff run.

ESPN Chad Ford:
Bernie Bickerstaff played it safe again and went with the most proven player in the draft. Adam Morrison will score points and he'll draw fans into the arena. The Bobcats continue filling the team with solid players who have good backgrounds -- and with Morrison they may have found their first star.

HoopsVibe:
Analysis: Charlotte gets their scorer and marquee player in Adam Morrison. His intensity, work ethic, and desire to win at all times will make him a starter likely from day one. His defensive issues will be overshadowed some by the presence of Gerald Wallace and Emeka Okafor in the back court. Ryan Hollins is a nice pick up and with some work in the weight room could become a player in the rotation as a shot blocking specialist.

Grade: A-
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#27 » by Walt Cronkite » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:18 pm

Beat you to it with my edit, but the question remains:

Would you consider our draft history a good one?
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#28 » by SWedd523 » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:22 pm

Ajinca was a gamble with the 20th pick. I already listed the last ten 20th picks and there's a definite lack of talent. The average lottery only produces a couple of starters, and it becomes less likely the further down you go.

I wouldn't consider our draft history to be a "good" one, but that's more due to the lack of star power than consistently drafting busts. The two examples I gave earlier have both Minnesota and Golden State drafting far more busts than Charlotte, yet they don't look as bad in comparison because Curry turned out to be great (at least when healthy) and Love/Rubio have been great.

So good? No. But laughably bad? Absolutely not. One star changes everything
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#29 » by Walt Cronkite » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:33 pm

It doesn't matter where Ajinca was picked, only that he was picked.
Okafor/May/Felton/Morrison/Wright/Dudley/Augustin/Ajinca/Henderson isn't a murder's row. There were available stars that we didn't select and draft analysis is weighed heaviest in hindsight, so we look particularly bad.

I'm pretty apathetic about the team these days, so maybe that's where our disconnect is.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#30 » by SWedd523 » Sat Jun 2, 2012 10:45 pm

So even if a 60th pick doesn't work out it's a bad pick?

It definitely isn't a murder's row, it's more average than anything. Far from great but "omgz horrible" either. And I guess if you want to give more credence to hindsight in grading a draft then that's fine, but you don't have the luxury of hindsight when you're making the pick on draft night.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#31 » by Walt Cronkite » Sat Jun 2, 2012 11:02 pm

Sorry, i meant that Ajinca was a first round pick. That's why I included him in what I thought was an obvious list of all of our first round picks. Looking at our picks, I think it's a pretty average collection of players and since we've been bad (maybe I should write "not good" so we don't argue over language? "Not great"?) for so long and built through the draft, I understand why dismissible people with dismissible opinions quickly dismiss our team. Were we to be contracted immediately, the average poster on the GB, another team's fan site, a college basketball fan site, etc. would likely consider our franchise a waste because we've been unmemorable.

You fight a fight I am unwilling to, because dealing with people of such inconsiderate opinions doesn't appeal to me in my free time. This is also why I respect Stun's enthusiasm even if I find a lot of things he writes cringe-worthy. I fully admit I am probably out of the loop with how frustrating it must be to be a Bobcat fan dealing with an average whatever fan that writes/says the things you find frustrating. The NBA fans I run into up here are generally sympathetic to the plight of the Bobcat fan.

We played it safe with most of our draft picks. I think draft analysis is stupid because there are so many uncontrollable variables that people forget about. I hope the worst is behind us, but the point of all of this for me was to admit that I can see where people that think we are bad at drafting are coming from, because I think we've drafted poorly.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#32 » by doc.end » Sat Jun 2, 2012 11:20 pm

SWedd523 wrote:
Walt Cronkite wrote:Felton at 5 and Ammo at 3 were suspect picks at the time. I think the Felton/May UNC gimmick has gone a long way to make us seem like a joke as far as drafting goes. We also apparently caved to LB and took DJ when we already had an ok pg and needed a big guy, after allegedly telling Brook Lopez we were going to take him. Also we selected Ajinca with a 1st rounder.

We have a reputation as an inept team at drafting for a pretty good reason.


The team got good draft grades from most pundits for the Ammo draft. Of course hindsight is going to make it look bad, but at the time, it wasn't considered suspect. A player like Ammo is going to be controversial anyway.

As for Ajinca, I don't understand how you could factor in a 20th pick as evidence for a bad drafting team. The last 10 20th picks:

Donatas Motiejunas
James Anderson
Eric Maynor
Alexis Ajinca
Jason Smith
Renaldo Balkman
Julius Hodge
Jameer Nelson
Dahntay Jones
Kareem Rush


Not exactly what you'd consider top shelf talent.

ibaka, no hindsight needed, ibaka was there
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#33 » by SWedd523 » Sat Jun 2, 2012 11:24 pm

If everybody knew Ibaka was so great... then why was he still there?
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#34 » by doc.end » Sat Jun 2, 2012 11:45 pm

Because his camp went with something like he would prefer to be picked in second round becuase of his contract situation, I don't remember what it was, could be a smokescreen as well. And because people picking the draft are not always the brighest ones, especially when it comes to non-US players some have no clue - which is understandable as transition could be hard for some of those players and you can't tell in advance.

To me, it was obvios from his footage, he is player not to pass on (some may rememeber). I admit I bought into Larry Brown's praise for Lexy after workouts. I hoped Ibaka would indeed made to second orund then, though I was expecting Spurs woudl get him but Sonics were picking ahead of them. Maybe his camp wanted him to fall to San Antonio that would make sense, they are as class oragnization as you can get and have had succes with international players.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#35 » by MPM » Sun Jun 3, 2012 4:32 pm

Choker wrote:I've been hearing rumors for years that Jordan wanted Brandon Roy. And also heard in Washington he wanted Elton Brand and not Kwame Brown, but management pushed for Brown because of marketability.


Re: the Jordan/Kwame thing - it makes for great fodder for internet hacks who get off on endlessly bashing MJ, but David Falk basically confirmed that Jordan wanted Brand in a radio interview several years ago. Falk represents Brand, so I always gave this a lot of credence. In any case, Jordan will forever be tied to Kwa-man. Repeat something long, loud, and often enough and it becomes the truth. Like someone else said though - it doesn't really matter - Kwame was an extremely highly regarded pick at the time - regardless of who's idea it was, picking him at #1 wasn't a reach.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1351 ... lk-says-no
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#36 » by doc.end » Sun Jun 3, 2012 4:59 pm

uhm, bleacher report
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#37 » by MPM » Sun Jun 3, 2012 5:26 pm

doc.end wrote:uhm, bleacher report


true. :)

Was reported elsewhere though - here it is in Dime:

http://dimemag.com/2009/03/maybe-mj-isn ... after-all/

And - of course - I don't really care either way - just bored to tears here watching the Queen's Jubilee on TV. Stirring the pot.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#38 » by fatlever » Sun Jun 3, 2012 5:43 pm

man, we've been through this kwame stuff so many times. it still amazes me that people can blame anyone for that pick.

the options for #1 that year came down to brown, eddy curry, tyson chandler, shane battier and eddie griffin. griffin was the front-runner until he punched a teammate. 3 of those 5 would have been busts equal to kwame. chandler would have been a bust for the first 5 years of his career. it has taken him almost 10 years to play like a #2 pick. how would he have handled the constant ridicule for that first 5 years of his career? battier would have been viewed as a massive bust if he was #1, but gets a pass because he fell to #6.

some like to point to gasol, but NOBODY had gasol on their radar until a few weeks before the draft. most people thought he was a huge reach for atlanta at #3.

it was an awful draft at the top, much like 2006.
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Re: MJ didnt draft Ammo - says bobcats Higgins 

Post#39 » by debo23 » Sun Jun 3, 2012 6:11 pm

Wish I could find this clip of a recent interview of Larry Brown I saw on espn where he defended Jordan saying that everyone was going to take Kwame 1st in that draft... instead I can only find this crap perpetuating the myths

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1MjfC11YRE[/youtube]

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