When Did Kobe Pass Dr.J On Your Rankings And Why/How?

[An Unbiased Fan]

I penalized CP3 for choking away HCA down the stretch. That's more about play in critical games than record. I also pointed out that Paul had a healthy team with an All-Star David West, and Chandler as the defensive anchor. Peja gave them 17 PPG on 58% TS, and Mo Pete was great from long distance.

In contrast, Bynum played only 35 games for LA, and Pau only played 27 games. Think about that. Odom was a decent starter at 14/10, but that's a far cry from David West, and more on par with Peja. After that, you have Fisher as the only other guy with double digit scoring. Sorry, but I don't think a bench of Walton, Sasha, Farmar, Vlad Rad, as that good.

Kobe was the MVP

Forget 2008, what about 2007. Dirk didn't "choke" away HCA that season, so how does Kobe get a good case for MVP when Dirk was sitting on top of the West? And Kobe was at the 7 seed?

Kobe was the offensive & defensive anchor in 2007. He was also putting up crazy performances just to get LA into the post-season.

MVP is all about a player's team impact relative what he had to work with, IMO. Dirk wasn't a bad choice for MVP at all, and I rarely bring up this debate. BUT, I feel Kobe was the very definition of MVP from 2006-2008. Both he and Shaq, IMO, got jobbed due to changing criteria every year.

Like Elgee said, narrative plays the biggest role in who gets it. Kobe was just lucky that his lack of MVPs was so glaring, because the media was looking for any reason not to give it to him. I remember 2 weeks left in 2008, when the media(and realgm for that matter), proclaimed that whoever won the West should get MVP. Which is silly considering again, that Kobe only had Bynum for 35 games, and Pau for 27.

It's rather comical how some people don't think Kobe has earned his MVPs(including Finals), All-NBA/All-D selections, and rings. Dude is 16 years deep in the league, and people still continue with this nonsense.

[JingoWolf]

Kobe was the offensive & defensive anchor in 2007.

Please stop saying that.
Kobe was never a defensive anchor or anything close to that.
It is just so ridiculous to say or even imply that.

Offensive anchor yes... defensive anchor no and that isn't debatable.
He was a very good/elite m2m defender when he was young and playing off of Shaq but after 03 he was no longer even an elite defender imo let alone a friggen defensive anchor...

Even if you want to say he was still a great m2m defender in the late 00's that doesn't make him a defensive anchor.

Mutombo.
Duncan.
KG.
Kareem.
Robinson.
Young/Prime Shaq.

Those were defensive anchors.

I don't think any non PF/C was ever a defensive anchor but if they were it'd be someone like a Rodman, Pippen, Payton.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe was the offensive & defensive anchor in 2007.

Please stop saying that.
Kobe was never a defensive anchor or anything close to that.
It is just so ridiculous to say or even imply that.

Offensive anchor yes... defensive anchor no and that isn't debatable.
He was a very good/elite m2m defender when he was young and playing off of Shaq but after 03 he was no longer even an elite defender imo let alone a friggen defensive anchor...

Even if you want to say he was still a great m2m defender in the late 00's that doesn't make him a defensive anchor.

I say it because it's true, that's how bad it was. Kwame was hurt that year, and LA was playing guys like Cook, Luke, Smush on defense. Bynum was also crap on defense and a foul machine. Kobe was basically free safety all year long, helping on everyone on defense. This was the year where he called out management to get him help because they were running him into the ground.

[JingoWolf]

I say it because it's true, that's how bad it was. Kwame was hurt that year, and LA was playing guys like Cook, Luke, Smush on defense. Bynum was also crap on defense and a foul machine. Kobe was basically free safety all year long, helping on everyone on defense. This was the year where he called out management to get him help because they were running him into the ground.

So he was leaving his man to double team and that makes him a defensive anchor?
Or he was playing off of his man and trying to get steals and that makes him a defensive anchor.

Really not trying to be argumentative but I don't think any version of Kobe was even capable of being a defensive anchor let alone late 00 Kobe who was putting in an insane amount of effort on the offensive end.

There is no defensive metric that shows Kobe even being an above average defender at that time let alone a defensive anchor.

Cmon man... Kobe was no Mutombo, I could maybe accept you trying to say he was a good defender but a defensive anchor... no.
Anyway if you still disagree just leave it be and ill accept your opinion.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I say it because it's true, that's how bad it was. Kwame was hurt that year, and LA was playing guys like Cook, Luke, Smush on defense. Bynum was also crap on defense and a foul machine. Kobe was basically free safety all year long, helping on everyone on defense. This was the year where he called out management to get him help because they were running him into the ground.

So he was leaving his man to double team and that makes him a defensive anchor?
Or he was playing off of his man and trying to get steals and that makes him a defensive anchor.

Really not trying to be argumentative but I don't think any version of Kobe was even capable of being a defensive anchor let alone late 00 Kobe who was putting in an insane amount of effort on the offensive end.

Cmon man... Kobe was no Mutombo, I could maybe accept you trying to say he was a good defender but a defensive anchor... no.

Anyway if you still disagree just leave it be and ill accept your opinion.

Uh, Deke was a center, so of course Kobe wasn't going to protect the paint, that wasn't the focus of LA's defense. This was all LA could do in 2007, because they're frontline was utter crap. Bynum's emergence in 2008 is what changed this, and is why the Lakers were a Top seed out West before they even got Gasol.

[JingoWolf]

I thought the Lakers ran a great offense thanks mostly to Kobe and Odom and thats why they had good records.

I didn't really think their defense was so great.

Obviously not as familiar with that team as you are but thats the general picture I had of those teams.

[microfib4thewin]

07 Lakers defense with Kobe on court: 109.8 per 100 poss
Lakers defense without Kobe: 110.7

He doesn't make a difference, and a defensive anchor wouldn't allow this many points in the first place. We can talk about something else now.

[An Unbiased Fan]

07 Lakers defense with Kobe on court: 109.8 per 100 poss
Lakers defense without Kobe: 110.7

He doesn't make a difference, and a defensive anchor wouldn't allow this many points in the first place. We can talk about something else now.

I already said their defense was crap that year, and that it turned around in 2008 when Bynum finally began playing it. My point if that Kobe's duties on LA consisted of pretty much everything because the rest of the roster consisted of a headcase Odom, Smush, Cook, Luke, and young Bynum. In 2006, Kwame the Def. anchor, but he was hurt in 07'.

[JingoWolf]

Not all teams have a defensive anchor.
Your best defender just doesn't become a defensive anchor in the absence of a real one.

[AnaheimRoyale]

It's not what you were looking for... meh, like I care less. It was the most talented support cast in years, regardless of quibbling about who I mentioned in the same sentence as someone else. Some of these guys you're moaning about were 10th, 11th and 12th men, nobody is overrating their contribution, but for 10th men they were darn useful.

[MisterWestside]

MVP is all about a player's team impact relative what he had to work with, IMO.

Finally, you nail a definition instead of making me think you're simply setting double standards for other players not named Kobe.

Here's the thing though: Kobe played with a great cast in the 2008 season. Bynum first showed the league that he's an all-star caliber player when healthy. When he went down, Pau Gasol came right in and picked up where Bynum left off and more. Odom was playing at a high level as a starter. Fisher was still a productive player. Vujacic's jumper wasn't broken at the time; and he, Turiaf, and Famar provided great minutes off the bench. That roster could compete with any team in the league. I would take Gasol and Odom over Chandler and West, Fisher over Morris Peterson and the Lakers bench over the Hornets bench easily. CP3 was simply more valuable to that team.

[An Unbiased Fan]

MVP is all about a player's team impact relative what he had to work with, IMO.

Finally, you nail a definition instead of making me think you're simply setting double standards for other players not named Kobe.

Here's the thing though: Kobe played with a great cast in the 2008 season. Bynum first showed the league that he's an all-star caliber player when healthy. When he went down, Pau Gasol came right in and picked up where Bynum left off and more. Odom was playing at a high level as a starter. Fisher was still a productive player. Vujacic's jumper wasn't broken at the time; and he, Turiaf, and Famar provided great minutes off the bench. That roster could compete with any team in the league. I would take Gasol and Odom over Chandler and West, Fisher over Morris Peterson and the Lakers bench over the Hornets bench easily. CP3 was simply more valuable to that team.

Except Bynum played only 35 games, and Pau only played 27 games. And lol at Turiaf's 6.6 PPG, 3.9 RPG, as being "great" off the bench. The Hornets were deeper by far.

Meanwhile, CP3 had...

David West - 20.6 PPG/8.9 RPG for 76 games
Peja - 16.4 PPG on 44% 3pt, 58% TS for77 games
Chandler - 11.8 PPG/11.7 RPG for 79 games

[Mo26]

MVP is all about a player's team impact relative what he had to work with, IMO.

Finally, you nail a definition instead of making me think you're simply setting double standards for other players not named Kobe.

Here's the thing though: Kobe played with a great cast in the 2008 season. Bynum first showed the league that he's an all-star caliber player when healthy. When he went down, Pau Gasol came right in and picked up where Bynum left off and more. Odom was playing at a high level as a starter. Fisher was still a productive player. Vujacic's jumper wasn't broken at the time; and he, Turiaf, and Famar provided great minutes off the bench. That roster could compete with any team in the league. I would take Gasol and Odom over Chandler and West, Fisher over Morris Peterson and the Lakers bench over the Hornets bench easily. CP3 was simply more valuable to that team.

Except Bynum played only 35 games, and Pau only played 27 games. And lol at Turiaf's 6.6 PPG, 3.9 RPG, as being "great" off the bench. The Hornets were deeper by far.

Meanwhile, CP3 had...

David West - 20.6 PPG/8.9 RPG for 76 games
Peja - 16.4 PPG on 44% 3pt, 58% TS for77 games
Chandler - 11.8 PPG/11.7 RPG for 79 games

Seriously. CP3's supporting cast was better an far more healthy and he still couldn't finish with a better record.

[Mo26]

But yeah, he definitely was not better than Kobe.

Yes he was, he "won" more. A lot more. Your "empty" stats mean nothing when Dirk was the better winner that season.

No, Kobe was definitely the better player. The big difference here is that Dirk and Kobe are both winners while LBJ is the biggest choker/loser in history.

[Mo26]

I don't care about that, that's just a narrative that people like to bring up as a means to somehow discredit Kobe. Bryant was worthy of the MVP that season and was fine selection.

This. Haters mad. Keep crying, bitches.

[MisterWestside]

Except Bynum played only 35 games, and Pau only played 27 games. And lol at Turiaf's 6.6 PPG, 3.9 RPG, as being "great" off the bench. The Hornets were deeper by far.

Meanwhile, CP3 had...

David West - 20.6 PPG/8.9 RPG for 76 games
Peja - 16.4 PPG on 44% 3pt, 58% TS for77 games
Chandler - 11.8 PPG/11.7 RPG for 79 games

Of course you would just pick one one bench player, and of course you would just look at per game averages. The Lakers bench surpassed the Hornets bench in the per minute advanced metrics. When Bynum was healthy, he was more productive than West or Chandler. Then when Bynum went out, Gasol came in and GAVE the Lakers even better production than Bynum right away, so don't act like the Lakers were missing good play out of the pivot for long periods of time. Kobe played with a well-above average supporting cast.

The "Kobe played with an inferior cast to CP3" angle doesn't fly.

[AnaheimRoyale]

The strength of the Hornets and Lakers in 08 has been (unsurprisingly) misrepresented by Kobe fans here.

The Hornets had 4 guys worthy of being starters in 2008, and some bench players acting as fillers to hide the lack of depth. They had Chandler, who was a very good role playing big to have (not an all-star type talent yet, but certainly very good), D.West, a borderline all-star, and Peja. Peja used to be a top 10 player in 2004, and a plausible MVP candidate (not a winner, but a candidate). He was great back then. He was no longer that guy in 2008, he'd become a shooter with not much else to recommend him. He was still a good starter, but by next year he completely collapsed as a player, and became a bench shooter talent.

The Lakers had the better team. Bynum/Pau in 62 games is better than D.West in 76, you're really overrating West as a player, he was nowhere near as good as Pau, and while Pau was only there 27 games for the Lakers, take a look at the huge tear the Lakers went on once he got there. Prior to that the Lakers had a lower win % than the Hornets. The 24-11 record while Bynum was healthy (as opposed to the much worse record when he was not) is also telling of his value that year. Odom was a better player than Chandler in 08, and Kobe had the benefit of a still good Fisher, contract year Vujanic (who got himself paid based on how well he played), Radmanovic having himself a very solid season, Ariza off the bench, and even the bench warmers were solid, with good seasons from Kwame, Farmer, Turiaf and Walton. The did what they were supposed to do as role players.

Paul had much les depth, and (for the games Bynum/Pau were healthy) less size, and much less star power. Pau/Bynum and Odom eats D.West and young Chandler out of the water for Robin talent too. Depth or star power, Kobe's team is better.

[MisterWestside]

No, Kobe was definitely the better player. The big difference here is that Dirk and Kobe are both winners while LBJ is the biggest choker/loser in history.

What does LBJ have to do with a comparison between Dirk and Kobe in 2007?

[Mo26]

That's what it's all about...to you.

[MisterWestside]

That's what it's all about...to you.

To you, it's all about changing your criteria to keep Kobe on top. In 2007 he won 25 less games than Dirk.

Post your empty Kobe stats from that regular season, Dirk was better because won more. Dirk.

Beast.