Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 12

[tdotrep2]

are we not planning to work out any prospects? I'm reading that a whole bunch of teams are doing as such.

[N1QUE24]

Hornets held a workout with Rivers, Lamb, Zeller, Terrence Jones and others..

They have interviews here:
http://www.nba.com/hornets/2012_draftcentral.html

[Indeed]

are we not planning to work out any prospects? I'm reading that a whole bunch of teams are doing as such.

It is a long summer, isn't it? The playoffs isn't even over, and the draft measurement isn't out until end of this week.

I would suggest to review the measurement before we decide who should be included.

[neurotik]

With a few weeks to go I decided it was time to try and better quantify what I expect/hope for at 8 in a draft like this with some minimum requirements, some traits that I consider very positive in prospects, and some negatives that concern me about prospects. I was surprised (but not entirely) to see at the end of this that Jared Sullinger, if his measurements checked out, seemed like the best bet to succeed and be an above average player at his position with a minimum risk of busting. However, I determined that because of the glut of PFs here in Toronto and the amount of good-to-great PFs currently in the NBA at the moment... from a supply and demand perspective... Lamb edged him out for me.

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS AT 8

ELITE PER/Advanced metrics
Lillard
Waiters
Sullinger

SOLID PER/Advanced metrics
Lamb
PJIII

-----------------------------------------------------------

POSITIVES I VALUE

Clearly defined position and the body/athleticism to play it a special level
Lillard
Lamb
Sullinger (PF if his measurements check out)

Resume indicating above-average defensive potential
Waiters

Elite specialty of some kind that the player can fall back on and carve out a niche with while developing. A single trait that best defines the player.
Lillard (Efficient inside/out scoring potential)
Waiters (Iso machine)
Lamb (Good scorer that can fit into many different systems/team structures)
Sullinger (Classic 20/10 type on good efficiency)

Upside based on freakish size/build/athleticism that reminds me of a star
PJIII

Above average maturity/coachability for age
Lamb
Lillard
Sullinger

Intensity/competitiveness
Lillard
Sullinger
Waiters


NEGATIVES THAT CONCERN ME

Being significantly older or playing in a weaker conference than other pospects
Lillard

Tweener issues due to lack of height/skills/athleticism to play a clearly defined position
PJIII
Waiters

Lack of passing from a guard position or lack of rebounding/shot blocking from a power position
Lamb (Passing for a SG)
Sullinger (Blocking)
PJIII (Blocking)
Lillard (Passing for a PG)

Potentially negative attitude concerns that may be disruptive
Waiters

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSIONS

Lamb has 3 positives I value, a solid PER and 1 negative that worries me.

Lillard has 4 positives I value, an elite PER, and 2 negatives that worry but all of my knowledge from him and his positives comes from playing against inferior competition so that that knocks him down a little.

Sullinger has 4 positives I value, an elite PER, and 1 negative that concerns me.

Waiters has 3 positives I value, an elite PER, and 2 negatives that concern me.

PJIII has 1 positive I value, a solid PER, and 2 negatives that concern me.

------------------------------------------------------------

FINAL THOUGHTS

When I break it down like that I'm a little surprised (but not really) to see that my brain is telling me that if Sullinger measures out well that he would be the best mixture of upside and low-risk at 8. However, because of the glut at PF and the amount of good-to-great PFs currently in the NBA I give Lamb the edge ever so slightly. Lillard and Waiters are essentially tied in my judgment as a result of me not being impressed with Waiters attitude while also not being impressed with Lillard's opponents. PJII comes in last as a result of all having only 1 positive I value and 2 negatives that concern me.

I think you're making the mistake that most GM's live to regret once they make it. Basically, you're acknowledging Sullinger is the BPA in your opinion, and still will pass on him due to team needs/glut.

[DA_SCOUT]

Anyone wanna post the raptors part for Mock Draft 6.0? Thanks in advance

[BillyGM]

http://www.nba.com/hornets/video/2012/0 ... TS-2119403

[Double Helix]

I think you're making the mistake that most GM's live to regret once they make it. Basically, you're acknowledging Sullinger is the BPA in your opinion, and still will pass on him due to team needs/glut.

It's a little more complicated than that for me. I acknowledge our own personal glut primarily to highlight the fact that the PF position has quickly become one of the most efficient/well stocked position in the league. According to PER, there are 30 PFs with PERs of 17.0 or more.

There's less than 7 SGs with PERs of 17.0 or higher. Many of the best are in their mid 30s.

So, due to supply and demand, I choose the player that has less supply and high demand due to scarcity. An impact old school SG. There are reasons why we find it hard to imagine trade scenarios where Bargnani or Davis where we get good value back. Other teams are pretty content with the PF options that they have. Meanwhile, you float out a SG with a PER of 16-17 and you'll have plenty of scenarios where teams would gladly accept that as an upgrade over what they have.

[JN]

Potentially negative attitude concerns that may be disruptive
Waiters
[/color]

As a Syracuse fan I am just really, really confused as to the basis of this concern. I have witnessed far too many kids with attitude issues the last 10-12 years and Dion Waiters has done nothing to belong in that group. Kids like Deshaun Williams, Josh Wright, Fab Melo, Billy Edelin, Deshaun Wright, Mark Konecny, Eric Devenforf, Paul Harris, Louis McCroskey. As I said, at Syracuse unfortunately, negative attitudes are far too common recently.

Please explain why you chose to isolate Waiters from this group of prospects an attitude that is not impressive.

Is it because he wanted to transfer at the end of his first year and was disappointed with playing time? After all Syracuse had established starters in Scoop Jardine and Brandon Triche who were both good college guards, and they had recruited a top 15 recruit in Michael Carter Williams, and arguably a top 50 recruit in Trevor Cooney.

Nothing wrong with the kid who was disappointed with PT and was looking to transfer given the above. And what did Waiters do? He committed himself harder to the game - he realized it was not so easy. Lost a good 15 pounds, and made himself alot stronger. How is any of this evidence of a negative attitude?

He came back to Syracuse and it was a clear from early practices that he had improved himself to being Syracuse's best guard. But he accepted the fact that Boehiem likes to keep things the way they are. and he wasn't going to change a good starting backcourt from the year before on a 3 seed.

And so he accepted a sixth man role. Never complained about it (and even if some claimed he did ... so what). As the season progressed it was clear he was one of the five guards in America, but he essentually accepted his role. His teammates accepted that he was the go to guy at the end of games. Boeheim truly respected how Waiters accepted and responded to this role. Not sure how any of this shows any negative concerns about attitude.

IMO, the fact that he accepted a sixth man role that Boeheim put him in, when he should have clearly been starting, shows that he has a very good attitude and is indeed quite coachable.

[DA_SCOUT]

I agree with JN, nothing should be mentioned about Waiter and bad attitude. It shouldn't even be considered.

[Double Helix]

Posted the above on a phone. Sorry about the crap writing.

[neurotik]

I think you're making the mistake that most GM's live to regret once they make it. Basically, you're acknowledging Sullinger is the BPA in your opinion, and still will pass on him due to team needs/glut.

It's a little more complicated than that for me. I acknowledge our own personal glut primarily to highlight the fact that the PF position has quickly become one of the most efficient/well stocked position in the league. According to PER, there are 30 PFs with PERs of 17.0 or more.

There's less than 7 SGs with PERs of 17.0 or higher. Many of the best are in their mid 30s.

So, due to supply and demand, I choose the player that has less supply and high demand due to scarcity. An impact old school SG. There are reasons why we find it hard to imagine trade scenarios where Bargnani or Davis where we get good value back. Other teams are pretty content with the PF options that they have. Meanwhile, you float out a SG with a PER of 16-17 and you'll have plenty of scenarios where teams would gladly accept that as an upgrade over what they have.

But I sill think you're overlooking a major thing that you've acknowledged.

Sullinger's and Lamb's downside/their probability of becoming below average PER players.

I think that Lamb will most likely become a passive, below average to average guard on a team like the Raptors. On the other hand, I think that regardless of what team Sullinger goes to, he will be an above average scorer, rebounder, and a great locker room guy.

Also I forgot to mention in my previous post, you really should add a "Motor or lack there of" category to your list (or perhaps include it with the attitude concerns).

[Double Helix]

Potentially negative attitude concerns that may be disruptive
Waiters
[/color]

As a Syracuse fan I am just really, really confused as to the basis of this concern. I have witnessed far too many kids with attitude issues the last 10-12 years and Dion Waiters has done nothing to belong in that group. Kids like Deshaun Williams, Josh Wright, Fab Melo, Billy Edelin, Deshaun Wright, Mark Konecny, Eric Devenforf, Paul Harris, Louis McCroskey. As I said, at Syracuse unfortunately, negative attitudes are far too common recently.

Please explain why you chose to isolate Waiters from this group of prospects an attitude that is not impressive.

Is it because he wanted to transfer at the end of his first year and was disappointed with playing time? After all Syracuse had established starters in Scoop Jardine and Brandon Triche who were both good college guards, and they had recruited a top 15 recruit in Michael Carter Williams, and arguably a top 50 recruit in Trevor Cooney.

Nothing wrong with the kid who was disappointed with PT and was looking to transfer given the above. And what did Waiters do? He committed himself harder to the game - he realized it was not so easy. Lost a good 15 pounds, and made himself alot stronger. How is any of this evidence of a negative attitude?

He came back to Syracuse and it was a clear from early practices that he had improved himself to being Syracuse's best guard. But he accepted the fact that Boehiem likes to keep things the way they are. and he wasn't going to change a good starting backcourt from the year before on a 3 seed.

And so he accepted a sixth man role. Never complained about it (and even if some claimed he did ... so what). As the season progressed it was clear he was one of the five guards in America, but he essentually accepted his role. His teammates accepted that he was the go to guy at the end of games. Boeheim truly respected how Waiters accepted and responded to this role. Not sure how any of this shows any negative concerns about attitude.

IMO, the fact that he accepted a sixth man role that Boeheim put him in, when he should have clearly been starting, shows that he has a very good attitude and is indeed quite coachable.

I appreciate and acknowledge the fact that you have your finger on the pulse of Syracuse basketball a lot more than I do. That said... it's not like I just made this up. There were some reports and some scouts have similar concerns to this day. Also, in interviews he seems a little immature or something in interviews. I can't quite put my finger on it. I have an interview clip at the bottom. Comparing the way he interviews to Lillard is pretty striking.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-01-10/s ... im-boeheim

I know he addressed it by saying this:

So perhaps it's possible his earlier character issues can be attributed to immaturity. After all, he won't turn 21 until Dec. 1.

"I'm not a bad kid. And I can play defense," NBA.com quoted Waiters as saying. "A lot of people judge me, but they don't know me. I'm a good kid. I've never been in trouble. I've never been arrested. I don't hang around bad people. I was immature when I came to school. I was overwhelmed. But I put in the work to get better.

"Coach and I didn't bump heads all season. I'm very coachable. I just needed a little room to grow. I came to Syracuse a boy. I left as a man."

But when I see him give interviews he still seems to give off a bit of an attitude to me. Maybe it's just the way he speaks or the perma-smirk/glare he's got but I can see it rubbing some people the wrong way.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIMtWe5K4Q[/youtube]

[Double Helix]

Edit. Duplicate post.

[Al_Oliver]

That's last year's news man. The "issue" was in his freshman season... and DMC and Waiters aren't even close. DMC was a freshman acting a fool and continued it in his NBA career. What we have with Waiters is quite different in that he has already played another season without any drama.

[Marlo Stanfield]

To all who want Lillard; stop sniffing those bath salts. The guy will be mediocre in the NBA. He's never faced real competition and the NBA will be not just one level up like most guys who come out of division 1 schools, but two or more levels. I need you to trust me on this one, say NO to Damien Lillard. I wouldn't mind him if we're picking 20 or late, but at 8? C'mon son... c'mon.

[JN]

I appreciate and acknowledge the fact that you have your finger on the pulse of Syracuse basketball a lot more than I do. That said... it's not like I just made this up.

Agreed - I know you did not make it up, its out there in various sources. I just wonder if those sources are just scratching the surface and putting too much emphasis on first year issues, without noting the way he challenged himself to grow as a player in the past year.

[Al_Oliver]

To all who want Lillard; stop sniffing those bath salts. The guy will be mediocre in the NBA. He's never faced real competition and the NBA will be not just one level up like most guys who come out of division 1 schools, but two or more levels. I need you to trust me on this one, say NO to Damien Lillard. I wouldn't mind him if we're picking 20 or late, but at 8? C'mon son... c'mon.

Sorry, that's pretty ignorant man. Paul Milsap probably had the same questions. Same as Rodney Stuckey. Kurt Thomas went to TCU. There are lots of players who make the league and produce out of smaller schools.

[Marlo Stanfield]

To all who want Lillard; stop sniffing those bath salts. The guy will be mediocre in the NBA. He's never faced real competition and the NBA will be not just one level up like most guys who come out of division 1 schools, but two or more levels. I need you to trust me on this one, say NO to Damien Lillard. I wouldn't mind him if we're picking 20 or late, but at 8? C'mon son... c'mon.

Sorry, that's pretty ignorant man. Paul Milsap probably had the same questions. Same as Rodney Stuckey. Kurt Thomas went to TCU. There are lots of players who make the league and produce out of smaller schools.

For every Paul Millsap, Rodney Stuckey and Kurt Thomas there are 100 no name busts we've never heard of. As a matter of fact, don't even include Millsap and Thomas in there. Both of them were the leading rebounders in the country the years they came out. Rebounding is the most translatable NBA skill, and people knew they'd at least get guys who would be solid on the glass. People will probably think I'm lying, but I thought Millsap would be good in the NBA. I didn't know how good, but I was surprised he dropped.

[DA_SCOUT]

To all who want Lillard; stop sniffing those bath salts. The guy will be mediocre in the NBA. He's never faced real competition and the NBA will be not just one level up like most guys who come out of division 1 schools, but two or more levels. I need you to trust me on this one, say NO to Damien Lillard. I wouldn't mind him if we're picking 20 or late, but at 8? C'mon son... c'mon.

Sorry, that's pretty ignorant man. Paul Milsap probably had the same questions. Same as Rodney Stuckey. Kurt Thomas went to TCU. There are lots of players who make the league and produce out of smaller schools.

Agreed. Lillard is going to be good, watch him play. I forget who said it, but he looks like Kobe out there (weaker conference or not). He has a lot of skills which are transferable to the NBA. I'd gamble on Lillard anyday at 8.


By Kobe I mean, the Kobe of his Conference.

[DG88]

To all who want Lillard; stop sniffing those bath salts. The guy will be mediocre in the NBA. He's never faced real competition and the NBA will be not just one level up like most guys who come out of division 1 schools, but two or more levels. I need you to trust me on this one, say NO to Damien Lillard. I wouldn't mind him if we're picking 20 or late, but at 8? C'mon son... c'mon.

Some project Lillard to go as high as 6 and as low as 13. He wouldn't be rated so highly if scouts didn't think his skill would be transferable to the NBA. You thought process is like many on this board that make ignorant posts