First Round Playoff Thread

[Wooderson]

James Jones is the only guy on Miami shooting > 30% from 3. And he's 4-11 for the series.

They need someone to step up and hit a few outside shots, as a way to score more points, and more importantly to stretch the Celts defense out.

[Newz]

To add to the post above, as I said earlier in the thread, Boston is now focusing on James because of Wade's lack of production.

This has stopped the Heat from giving James the ball at the top of the key because they know how much attention it will draw. Normally that attention is a good thing because James is a terrific passer. But that ability to pass out of doubles/triples is now meaningless because their spot up shoots are shooting sub-30%.

This has lead to the Heat trying to move LeBron to the post, to use him as a screen/roll type guy, etc. LeBron, if you actually watched the games, didn't get a ton of touches in the 4th last night. They allowed Wade to handle up top and used James as more of a decoy because they knew with James up top it would lead to the same thing... open shots for guys not making open shots.

Unless you are one of those insane people who think LeBron should shoot even when double/triple teamed.

[Wooderson]

realistically though, that masseuse died at bosh's house and lebron didn't even resurrect her.

what a bitch

No happy ending there.

[ajb905]

And perhaps they win those games and others if LeBron had been more assertive when the game was on the line. We can play this game all day long. As I posted earlier, when the Heat win it's because of how great LeBron is. When they lose, it's because the talent around him didn't get it done.

That isn't what people are saying at all. People know LeBron should be more assertive at the end of the games. I myself have said that the Dallas series last year is primarily on LeBron's shoulders since he played way below the level he is capable of playing at.

But when he comes out and does stuff like 30/9/6 on a 57% TS% and you say he needs to do more... you realize you're saying he needs to put up numbers like 36/11/8 or something absolutely insane that pretty much no other player in the history of the NBA has put up, right?

Newz is right on with his string of posts. We latch on to big plays in the 4th quarter of close games as fans and then that play gets put on the pedestal while seemingly the rest of the game gets ignored. The closer role in baseball is overvalued as too much leverage is put on those last 3 outs when those other 24 are just as vital.

[Wooderson]

* In addition, Miami is looking for LeBron to carry them the first three quarters... then carry them in the fourth was well. No other player has this burden. Not Kobe, not Durant, not anyone on the Celtics, not Wade. LeBron can't take time off, he can't stop dominating the entire game or they lose.

This is a big point. He's averaging an insane 46 minutes a game this series, while being asked to do more than any player in the league while on the floor. Spo is running him into the ground.

[jerrod]

realistically though, that masseuse died at bosh's house and lebron didn't even resurrect her.

what a bitch

No happy ending there.

[Newz]

* In addition, Miami is looking for LeBron to carry them the first three quarters... then carry them in the fourth was well. No other player has this burden. Not Kobe, not Durant, not anyone on the Celtics, not Wade. LeBron can't take time off, he can't stop dominating the entire game or they lose.

This is a big point. He's averaging an insane 46 minutes a game this series, while being asked to do more than any player in the league while on the floor. Spo is running him into the ground.

When I fully explain myself no one really has answers or explanations. The only thing that guys like Europa want to turn to is 4th quarter stats (during the games that support what he is saying at least) and that they just know LeBron doesn't have that killer instinct.

It's funny too, because guys like Europa know a lot about basketball. It's just when it comes to James, most logic gets thrown out the window.

Could you imagine he Kevin Durant and LeBron were switched... and LeBron had throw away that pass to the Spurs, but then LeBron got bailed out by a miracle three by like Mike Miller? Good lord, people would be screaming about that for years.

[europa]

LeBron James isn't like "most other guys." He's the league MVP and a three-time MVP. He's considered to be the best player in the game today and is arguably one of the most talented players to ever play the game. When you're at that level, the expectations change. The bar is raised. You're asked to do more. That's just the way it is. If asking a three-time MVP to step up in the fourth quarter of a close game with the series potentially on the line is asking too much of him, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate LeBron James' place in the game. I guess I don't understand why it's considered illogical for LeBron James to step up and make big plays when his team needed them last night in the fourth quarter. Wade had no trouble doing it. Pierce had no trouble doing it. KG and Rondo did it. But apparently, it defies logic to ask LeBron James to do the same even though he's viewed as being a better player than all of those guys.

[midranger]

realistically though, that masseuse died at bosh's house and lebron didn't even resurrect her.

what a bitch

No happy ending there.

Where was Travolta?

[Newz]

LeBron James isn't like "most other guys." He's the league MVP and a three-time MVP. He's considered to be the best player in the game today and is arguably one of the most talented players to ever play the game. When you're at that level, the expectations change. The bar is raised. You're asked to do more. That's just the way it is. If asking a three-time MVP to step up in the fourth quarter of a close game with the series potentially on the line is asking too much of him, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate LeBron James' place in the game. I guess I don't understand why it's considered illogical for LeBron James to step up and make big plays when his team needed them last night in the fourth quarter. Wade had no trouble doing it. Pierce had no trouble doing it. KG and Rondo did it. But apparently, it defies logic to ask LeBron James to do the same even though he's viewed as being a better player than all of those guys.

Again completely ignoring my overall post and putting words into my mouth.

It's getting to the point where it's not worth discussing anymore Europa. You're right, I think it's crazy to ask LeBron to do things in the fourth quarter. That's what I've been getting at all along, he should be excused.

I can play that game too! Oh Europa, every time the Heat lose it's all LeBron's fault. He's overrated, he should never win the MVP, he might not even be a top five player in the league. He's not very talented and he should score every point in the fourth quarter or he sucks.

That's what you're saying... right? Because that's how you are approaching what I'm saying.

[Bernman]

Why can't fans keep all these thoughts in their head at the same time?

Lebron is the most productive player in the NBA, but his value diminishes a little because he freezes in close games. Wade is one of the top 5 most productive players in the NBA, but his value is elevated a little more for ability to perform in crunch time. They are of about equal value to the Heat. Neither are near a perfect player. The Heat's poor supporting cast necessitates that they are near perfect to beat great TEAMS. Boston is a great TEAM. They deserve credit for that being the case and as a result beating the Heat. Everybody on the Heat deserves some degree of flack for not composing a great TEAM and thus losing to one in the Celtics.

[Newz]

Why can't fans keep all these thoughts in their head at the same time?

Lebron is the most productive player in the NBA, but his value diminishes a little because he freezes in close games. Wade is one of the top 5 most productive players in the NBA, but his value is elevated a little more for ability to perform in crunch time. They are of about equal value to the Heat. Neither are near a perfect player. The Heat's poor supporting cast necessitates that they are near perfect to beat great TEAMS. Boston is a great TEAM. They deserve credit for that being the case and as a result beating the Heat. Everybody on the Heat deserves some degree of flack for not composing a great TEAM and thus losing to one in the Celtics.

I agree with most of this, though I disagree about Wade at this particular time as in these playoffs he has not been even remotely close to as valuable as James. If Wade played at the level we are used to seeing him at in the playoffs? Then yeah, I could see that.

I can keep the thoughts perfectly clear and I agree with pretty much everyone that James needs to be more assertive at the end of games in most cases. I just don't think that diminishes how great he is or how big of an impact he has on basketball games.

[europa]

Newz, you said my point lacked logic. All I've said is that I don't believe it's asking too much of LeBron to step up with the game on the line. If you agree that isn't asking too much then I'm not sure why you would claim my point lacks logic since that's the one I've been making all along.

I guess for me it boils down to this - I'd trade some of LeBron's first-quarter brilliance for some fourth-quarter magic.

[WRau1]

LeBron should've went to Chicago.

[InsideOut]

I'd say James is asked to do more for his team than any player in the game except for maybe Wilt. MJ/Bird/Magic didn't need to carry their teams for the first 3 quarters and then also dominate in the 4th (Dream came close). I think this fact is either ignored by or escapes most James haters.

I also agree with the point or 4th quarter production being overblown. It seems for some a guy can suck for 3 quarters but then come up big for the last 5 minutes and that some excuses the fact he sucked for the other 36 minutes and that if he didn't suck for 36 minutes that game wouldn't even have been close in the 4th quarter.

If anyone questions James and winning look at Cleveland with James then look at them the year after he left. They went from winning 66 then 61 to winning 19.

[Newz]

Newz, you said my point lacked logic. All I've said is that I don't believe it's asking too much of LeBron to step up with the game on the line. If you agree that isn't asking too much then I'm not sure why you would claim my point lacks logic since that's the one I've been making all along.

I guess for me it boils down to this - I'd trade some of LeBron's first-quarter brilliance for some fourth-quarter magic.

Because I'm explaining to you why this might be happening and explaining his overall impact on the game. You keep dismissing every argument I have as "But Wade did stuff! AND SO DID RONDO AND KG! AND PAUL PIERCE HIT A SHOT!".

That's not a very good argument, especially opposed to what I'm saying and what I'm laying out.

To me it comes off as something that is partially true. It's something you believe in and I think you REALLY, REALLY (like REALLY) dislike LeBron James. So no matter what I say, you aren't going to budge on it. You don't really want to listen to reasons or about how he impacts the game... or about how Boston is being smart by taking him out of the game.

All you want to see is just "LeBron James didn't have a great 4th quarter, that's all that matters".

[Newz]

I'd say James is asked to do more for his team than any player in the game except for maybe Wilt. MJ/Bird/Magic didn't need to carry their teams for the first 3 quarters and then also dominate in the 4th (Dream came close). I think this fact is either ignored by or escapes most James haters.

I also agree with the point or 4th quarter production being overblown. It seems for some a guy can suck for 3 quarters but then come up big for the last 5 minutes and that some excuses the fact he sucked for the other 36 minutes and that if he didn't suck for 36 minutes that game wouldn't even have been close in the 4th quarter.

If anyone questions James and winning look at Cleveland with James then look at them the year after he left. They went from winning 66 then 61 to winning 19.

This.

[europa]

The Heat's poor supporting cast necessitates that they are near perfect to beat great TEAMS.

I'd also say this was obvious to everyone when this whole thing began. Plenty of folks talked about how the Heat would struggle to build quality depth because of how much money they were paying LeBron, Wade and Bosh. So LeBron signed up for this. That's why the supporting cast argument doesn't carry any weight with me. Don't orchestrate a scenario, sign up for the scenario, brag about how great the scenario is going to be and then bitch about the most obvious flaw in the scenario's plan that was evident all along.

Note - I'm not saying LeBron is doing that but plenty of his supporters do.

I think Woj nailed it. I think the Heat believed the league would roll over for them. That hasn't happened and they don't (to this point) have answer for it.

Also, no one is questioning LeBron's greatness. NO ONE. All some of us are saying is that for a player who is so great, doing more in close games should come more frequently than it has to this point. And when you are that great, you're going to be criticized when you come up short in that regard. That's part of the deal if you're a league MVP and want to be placed in the GOAT discussion.

[Newz]

The Heat's poor supporting cast necessitates that they are near perfect to beat great TEAMS.

I'd also say this was obvious to everyone when this whole thing began. Plenty of folks talked about how the Heat would struggle to build quality depth because of how much money they were paying LeBron, Wade and Bosh. So LeBron signed up for this. That's why the supporting cast argument doesn't carry any weight with me. Don't orchestrate a scenario, sign up for the scenario, brag about how great the scenario is going to be and then bitch about the most obvious flaw in the scenario's plan that was evident all along.

Note - I'm not saying LeBron is doing that but plenty of his supporters do.

I think Woj nailed it. I think the Heat believed the league would roll over for them. That hasn't happened and they don't (to this point) have answer for it.

Also, no one is questioning LeBron's greatness. NO ONE. All some of us are saying is that for a player who is so great, doing more in close games should come more easily than it has to this point. And when you are that great, you're going to be criticized when you come up short in that regard. That's part of the deal if you're a league MVP and want to be placed in the GOAT discussion.

What?

So when the Heat lose and it's primarily because their supporting cast isn't playing well... and because Wade is playing below a level he is capable of... and because Bosh is hurt... Then people say that, because it's true... that's people "bitching" about it? How about it's just common sense for anyone who watches basketball?

When LeBron was a free agent I was saying Chicago was the best place for him and most people were all about Miami because they would have two other stars.

You are taking people stating things that are pretty much a fact and then passing it off as bitching.

I'm not here defending LeBron James. I could really care less if he wins a ring. I'd still prefer that SA wins it all, to be honest. I'm just talking basketball and giving my opinion.

[europa]

The point is LeBron and Wade both need to be near perfect as Bern said because the depth simply isn't there. But anyone with half a brain knew from Day 1 the depth wouldn't be there so there would always be a huge amount of pressure placed on LeBron and Wade (and Bosh to a lesser degree). That's the deal and these guys all signed up for it. Of course it matters that Bosh is hurt and Wade has struggled at times. But it also matters when LeBron doesn't do more in the fourth quarter of close playoff games.