First Round Playoff Thread

[Newz]

In a big playoff game with the season on the line, that's absolutely the mindset I think he needs to have.

If your expectation of LeBron is to put up a historic performance every time his team is against the ropes, then you are going to be disappointed. You'd have been disappointed in any player in the history of the league if those are the expectations.

If the Heat lose next game and LeBron does what he normally does (30/8/8 or something like that) then people will say he lost that 'killer instinct' or whatever stupid phrase they want to use... because he didn't basically beat the other team by himself.

Lebron is being held to ridiculous standards that even Michael Jordan wasn't held to. If you look at Jordan's last ring, he didn't even play that well overall against the Jazz. If LeBron was putting up the numbers Jordan was during that series (http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1998/) then LeBron would be considered a total choke artist.

[europa]

My expectations are not that LeBron put up a historic performance in said games so let's eliminate that from the discussion. My expectations are that he plays with the type of determination he showed last night when he left little doubt who the best player in the game was and made certain that he did everything in his power to prevent his team from losing. It's not about the actual production (although last night it was insanely great); it's about the approach to the game. That's what I'm talking about and that's what most people talk about when they point out the flaws in LeBron's game. It's not about the numbers - everyone would acknowledge his numbers are almost always impressive - it's about the approach he has in the games, especially in critical moments.

[InsideOut]

While I think MJ is no doubt one of the best of all time (Wilt is the GOAT as they had to change the rules to slow him down) I feel you could have switched Jordan with a bunch of guys and those Bulls teams still wins all those titles. Pippen was named to 8 straight all defensive teams, 7 all-NBA teams (three 1st team all-NBA) and even finished as high as 3rd in MVP voting. Grant was an all-star and named to 4 all-NBA defensive teams. Rodman was named to 7 all defensive teams and was defensive player of the year twice plus lead the league in rebounding for 7 straight years. Even BJ Armstrong was named an all-star. Then you add in maybe the best coach ever...

That team was so loaded that even after MJ retired they won over 50 games and only two less games than the year before with Jordan. Only the worst call in playoff history (against NY) kept them from potentially playing in another NBA finals. I have no doubt if you add Barkley, David Robinson, Dream, Ewing, Mailman, Drexler and a few other guys to that Jordanless Bulls team they keep right on winning titles. This is not to take anything away form MJ but only to point out it is pretty easy to be a winner when you play for such a loaded up team...just like Bill Russell did.

I guess my point is I don't think there was a single player in the NBA that season that you could have replaced James with and they would have got Cleveland to the finals.

[turbo2k]

It's not about the teammates, it's about LeBron's attitude (for me anyways). But maybe Ayt is right, everyone wants LeBron to be Jordan/Kobe like with the determination and selfishness that can come with it. Maybe he is more along the lines of Bird/Magic.

Edit: But last night was the game that everyone was looking for (not just the output), but the steely eyes, determination, and drive we haven't really seen. And the cherry on the top was his crazy efficiency last night.

[europa]

It's not about the teammates, it's about LeBron's attitude (for me anyways). But maybe Newz is right, everyone wants LeBron to be Jordan/Kobe like with the determination and selfishness that can come with it. Maybe he is more along the lines of Bird/Magic.

I've always thought he was much closer to Magic than he was to Jordan. Then again, I'm of the belief that comparing anyone post-Jordan to Jordan is ridiculous. The only players I would probably compare to Jordan as far as GOAT is concerned would be Kareem, Wilt, Russell and probably Oscar.

[turbo2k]

It's not about the teammates, it's about LeBron's attitude (for me anyways). But maybe Newz is right, everyone wants LeBron to be Jordan/Kobe like with the determination and selfishness that can come with it. Maybe he is more along the lines of Bird/Magic.

I've always thought he was much closer to Magic than he was to Jordan. Then again, I'm of the belief that comparing anyone post-Jordan to Jordan is ridiculous. The only players I would probably compare to Jordan as far as GOAT is concerned would be Kareem, Wilt, Russell and probably Oscar.

I agree, but post-Jordan, that's what everyone's been looking for, the next Jordan. Now is that fair, no, but that's how it is.

[jeremyd236]

In a big playoff game with the season on the line, that's absolutely the mindset I think he needs to have.

If your expectation of LeBron is to put up a historic performance every time his team is against the ropes, then you are going to be disappointed. You'd have been disappointed in any player in the history of the league if those are the expectations.

If the Heat lose next game and LeBron does what he normally does (30/8/8 or something like that) then people will say he lost that 'killer instinct' or whatever stupid phrase they want to use... because he didn't basically beat the other team by himself.

Lebron is being held to ridiculous standards that even Michael Jordan wasn't held to. If you look at Jordan's last ring, he didn't even play that well overall against the Jazz. If LeBron was putting up the numbers Jordan was during that series (http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1998/) then LeBron would be considered a total choke artist.

I agree with what you're saying. But do you really think you should be comparing Lebron in his prime coming off an MVP season to Michael Jordan at age 35?

[europa]

If LeBron was winning his sixth title I think it's highly doubtful anyone would call him a total choke artist regardless of what numbers he was putting up.

[trwi7]

I love all the TV analysts. Oh Boston is going to win game 6, they want it much more than Miami. Now today it's Miami is going to win game 7.

[Wooderson]

MJ 6 rings
Kobe 5 rings
Lebron 0 rings.

Scottie Pippen with Jordan - 6 Rings
Rodman with Jordan - 3 Rings
Prime Shaq with Kobe - 3 Rings
Gasol/Bynum/Odom with Kobe - 2 Rings

LeBron years played with Varaejo or Mo Williams as the second best player on his team? 7 out of 9.

This is really the most pathetic argument in the history of pro sports. The 'rings' argument.

And in the playoffs Mo Williams and the rest of the gang seemingly forgot how to shoot. Mo got outplayed by freaking Rafer Alston in the Magic series (Jameer injured) where LeBron was completely dominant. If you sub LeBron for Kobe that year, Lakers might sweep the playoffs, while Cleveland would have been lucky to get out of the first round.

[Wooderson]

I love all the TV analysts. Oh Boston is going to win game 6, they want it much more than Miami. Now today it's Miami is going to win game 7.

ESPN after Game 2 of the WCF...

"Can the Spurs sweep the postseason?"

Spurs lose 4 straight.

[Newz]

I agree with what you're saying. But do you really think you should be comparing Lebron in his prime coming off an MVP season to Michael Jordan at age 35?

I guess you can compare him to Jordan overall, at any age. I'm not quite sure Jordan was ever held to the standard that LeBron has been held to. I'm not sure any player has been held to the standard LeBron is being held to. People want LeBron to average near a triple double and score 30 points, then he also has to always dominate the 4th and he also has to play almost every minute of every game... then you also have to ignore that Bosh is hurt and that Wade is overall playing like crap. People expect him to be a one man team and to win rings, it's kind of ridiculous.

Before Jordan won a ring, everyone always said he'd never be as good as Magic or Bird. They said he was too selfish, not as good, just cared about being flashy, etc.

Then he got Pippen and an incredibly good supporting cast and he won some rings. Pippen is a legit top 50 player of all-time and so is Dennis Rodman. Jordan didn't only win because he was great, but because he played on a great TEAM. If Jordan played on the Cavs teams that LeBron did, he wouldn't have won championships either... he would have done the same thing as LeBron. He would have stomped the bad teams and then went up against a team like SA or Detroit (back then) and they would have lost.

I have always viewed championships as a team accomplishment and not an individual thing. If you want to talk about championships?

The Lakers were great not because they just had Magic, but because they had Kareem, Worthy and a host of great role players. (Hell, Magic wasn't even the best player on his team for most years because of how great Kareem was)

The Celtics? Bird, McHale, Parish, Johnson.
The Lakers (Again)? Kobe AND Shaq. Kobe, Bynum and Gasol with Odom.
San Antonio? Duncan, Parker and Manu.

I have always viewed players as players and teams as teams... some people have issues with separating the two. Charles Barkley is a great example and I've had this conversation before. I think Barkley was a greater player than Kobe ever was, but 90% of people will scoff at that "cause Kobe got rings".

Give Barkley Kareem and Worthy... give him Pippen and Rodman... then he's winning rings and a lot of them. Same damn thing with LeBron James.

OKC is the new dynasty in the NBA, IMO. But it isn't just because of Kevin Durant. They have the best TEAM in the league.

[jerrod]

I love all the TV analysts. Oh Boston is going to win game 6, they want it much more than Miami. Now today it's Miami is going to win game 7.

ESPN after Game 2 of the WCF...

"Can the Spurs sweep the postseason?"

Spurs lose 4 straight.

what's wrong with that? they just asked the question when the team was 10 wins in with 6 to go

[jeremyd236]

I agree with what you're saying. But do you really think you should be comparing Lebron in his prime coming off an MVP season to Michael Jordan at age 35?

I guess you can compare him to Jordan overall, at any age. I'm not quite sure Jordan was ever held to the standard that LeBron has been held to. I'm not sure any player has been held to the standard LeBron is being held to. People want LeBron to average near a triple double and score 30 points, then he also has to always dominate the 4th and he also has to play almost every minute of every game... then you also have to ignore that Bosh is hurt and that Wade is overall playing like crap. People expect him to be a one man team and to win rings, it's kind of ridiculous.

Before Jordan won a ring, everyone always said he'd never be as good as Magic or Bird. They said he was too selfish, not as good, just cared about being flashy, etc.

Then he got Pippen and an incredibly good supporting cast and he won some rings. Pippen is a legit top 50 player of all-time and so is Dennis Rodman. Jordan didn't only win because he was great, but because he played on a great TEAM. If Jordan played on the Cavs teams that LeBron did, he wouldn't have won championships either... he would have done the same thing as LeBron. He would have stomped the bad teams and then went up against a team like SA or Detroit (back then) and they would have lost.

I have always viewed championships as a team accomplishment and not an individual thing. If you want to talk about championships?

The Lakers were great not because they just had Magic, but because they had Kareem, Worthy and a host of great role players. (Hell, Magic wasn't even the best player on his team for most years because of how great Kareem was)

The Celtics? Bird, McHale, Parish, Johnson.
The Lakers (Again)? Kobe AND Shaq. Kobe, Bynum and Gasol with Odom.
San Antonio? Duncan, Parker and Manu.

I have always viewed players as players and teams as teams... some people have issues with separating the two. Charles Barkley is a great example and I've had this conversation before. I think Barkley was a greater player than Kobe ever was, but 90% of people will scoff at that "cause Kobe got rings".

Give Barkley Kareem and Worthy... give him Pippen and Rodman... then he's winning rings and a lot of them. Same damn thing with LeBron James.

OKC is the new dynasty in the NBA, IMO. But it isn't just because of Kevin Durant. They have the best TEAM in the league.

But Lebron has Wade and Bosh. No, they're not as good as the guys you mentioned, but it's another top 5 and top 25 player.

I don't think Lebron fans should be worried. He's got plenty of time. At his age, Jordan didn't even have his first ring yet. Not that we're comparing the two....

[Wooderson]

I love all the TV analysts. Oh Boston is going to win game 6, they want it much more than Miami. Now today it's Miami is going to win game 7.

ESPN after Game 2 of the WCF...

"Can the Spurs sweep the postseason?"

Spurs lose 4 straight.

what's wrong with that? they just asked the question when the team was 10 wins in with 6 to go

Maybe because the Thunder are a completely different team at home? As well as the fact that the first two series the Spurs played against two of the weakest teams in the playoffs (Jazz and Clips both below average defensively). Wait until the Spurs win one road game against a great opponent before making ridiculous claims like that.

The statements were made as if it was all but assured that the Spurs win the WCF as well as Finals.

The media is no different than realgm. Pure reactionary.

[Newz]

But Lebron has Wade and Bosh. No, they're not as good as the guys you mentioned, but it's another top 5 and top 25 player.

I don't think Lebron fans should be worried. He's got plenty of time. At his age, Jordan didn't even have his first ring yet. Not that we're comparing the two....

Right, but like I said... there are still issues separate team from individual.

What's LeBron doing? What he always does. Putting up unreal stats and dominating a majority of the game.
What's Wade doing? Playing like he's Monta Ellis. (At times this series that's actually an insult to Monta Ellis)
What's Bosh doing? He's been hurt.
What's their cast doing? Not even shooting 30% from 3.

The overall conclusion seems to be that it should fall on LeBron. Why doesn't most of the blame fall on Wade? He's supposed to be a Hall of Famer, he's supposed to be a 'top 5 player' and he's supposed to be this great guy in the playoffs. He hasn't done ****.

The TEAM (the Miami Heat) aren't on the verge of being eliminate from the playoffs because of LeBron James. He's the last reason they are close to elimination. Last year against Dallas? Yeah, that's on him. This year? He's been spectacular.

[trwi7]

I have always viewed championships as a team accomplishment and not an individual thing. If you want to talk about championships?

Thank you. Kobe doesn't win rings without prime Shaq. Kobe doesn't win more rings without Odom, Bynum and Gasol. Kobe doesn't come close to winning a ring with LeBron's supporting cast in Cleveland. Neither does Jordan or anyone else.

I don't think people realize how dominant LeBron has been in this series. He's accounted for 35% of the Heat's points, 26% of their rebounds and 23% of their assists. He has a 59.4 TS% in the series. The rest of the Heat combined (Wade included) have a 50.1 TS%. To give some perspective on that, the Bucks had the worst offense in the league in 2010-11 and they finished with a 51.1 TS%.

LeBron is carrying the Heat right now. Put any other player on the Heat to replace LeBron and have the rest of the Heat play the same way they have and the series is already over with the Celtics in the Finals.

[europa]

We all know it's a team game but when you're a great player, especially one who calls himself "The King," expectations are different. Magic talked about that last night on ESPN. He was asked whether the criticism he got after the 84 Finals was fair and he said it was because that's the deal when you're a great player. For those who don't remember, Magic got KILLED after that Finals series. Care to know what his numbers were in the playoffs that year?

18.2 points per game
13.5 assists per game
6.6 rebounds per game

He did all that but got blasted for not doing more. It was a different era obviously without the Internet and blogs and message boards. Extrapolate that to today and my guess is it would be very similar to what LeBron often hears and has heard in this series. And again, last night Magic said the criticism was fair and he used it to improve in the offseason and get better. He came back the next season and led the Lakers to another title.

Life is different at the top. It just is. Magic understood that.

[Newz]

I have always viewed championships as a team accomplishment and not an individual thing. If you want to talk about championships?

Thank you. Kobe doesn't win rings without prime Shaq. Kobe doesn't win more rings without Odom, Bynum and Gasol. Kobe doesn't come close to winning a ring with LeBron's supporting cast in Cleveland. Neither does Jordan or anyone else.

I don't think people realize how dominant LeBron has been in this series. He's accounted for 35% of the Heat's points, 26% of their rebounds and 23% of their assists. He has a 59.4 TS% in the series. The rest of the Heat combined (Wade included) have a 50.1 TS%. To give some perspective on that, the Bucks had the worst offense in the league in 2010-11 and they finished with a 51.1 TS%.

LeBron is carrying the Heat right now. Put any other player on the Heat to replace LeBron and have the rest of the Heat play the same way they have and the series is already over with the Celtics in the Finals.

This.

[trwi7]

Magic is a friggin' idiot. Sorry, but he is. I don't take anything he says seriously. Fact is LeBron is carrying the Heat. If any star player deserves criticism for this series, it's Wade but once again LeBron is getting the vast majority of it.