First Round Playoff Thread

[Newz]

Also, bringing up players with similar production when talking about LeBron isn't really relevant. No one in the NBA produces at his level right now.

Only Ws matter in the postseason and it's the responsibility of the best player to get his team those Ws. Great production and no rings = Karl Malone. Lebron is a rich man's Dominique Wilkins.

The best player is responsible, right? Production isn't that big of a deal?

So then why do you love Kevin Durant so much? You know who made the big shots for OKC in the last series, right? James Harden. He "did it when it mattered" more so than Durant. Does that mean Harden > Durant?

[europa]

Durant was a monster against the Spurs. He shot better than 52% from the floor in four of the final five games. His fourth-quarter explosion in Game 4 was amazing (16 straight points at one stretch). I also think the 3 he hit right before the first half ended was the turning point of Game 6. Durant was the driving force behind OKC's win over the Spurs. I don't know how anyone could dispute that. San Antonio simply could not defend him.

[Nebula1]

Harden was huge obviously, but OKC is Durant's team without question.

The NBA is unique in that it's a superstar and his crew going as deep as they can with a coach as the eyes in the sky. It's a team sport, no doubt, but it boils down to a superstar leading his squad against another superstar and his squad. Other than that Pistons team, all the past champions have that dude. That dude gets buckets and gets Ws. That's how the NBA works.

Lebron showed to be that dude last night and I look forward to the clash with Durant.

[Newz]

Durant was a monster against the Spurs. He shot better than 52% from the floor in four of the final five games. His fourth-quarter explosion in Game 4 was amazing (16 straight points at one stretch). I also think the 3 he hit right before the first half ended was the turning point of Game 6. Durant was the driving force behind OKC's win over the Spurs. I don't know how anyone could dispute that. San Antonio simply could not defend him.

None of that production matters. All that matters is Harden hit two big shots 24 seconds before the game ended.

Production means nothing, remember?

[Newz]

Harden was huge obviously, but OKC is Durant's team without question.

The NBA is unique in that it's a superstar and his crew going as deep as they can with a coach as the eyes in the sky. It's a team sport, no doubt, but it boils down to a superstar leading his squad against another superstar and his squad. Other than that Pistons team, all the past champions have that dude. That dude gets buckets and gets Ws. That's how the NBA works.

Lebron showed to be that dude last night and I look forward to the clash with Durant.

Nope, not about a superstar and his squad.

All it's about is the best player getting his team Ws. Harden made the big shots when the game was on the line.

Harden > LeBron/Durant
Robert Horry > Kobe/Shaq

[europa]

Durant was a monster against the Spurs. He shot better than 52% from the floor in four of the final five games. His fourth-quarter explosion in Game 4 was amazing (16 straight points at one stretch). I also think the 3 he hit right before the first half ended was the turning point of Game 6. Durant was the driving force behind OKC's win over the Spurs. I don't know how anyone could dispute that. San Antonio simply could not defend him.

None of that production matters. All that matters is Harden hit two big shots 24 seconds before the game ended.

Production means nothing, remember?

Who said that? I know I never said that.

[Newz]

Durant was a monster against the Spurs. He shot better than 52% from the floor in four of the final five games. His fourth-quarter explosion in Game 4 was amazing (16 straight points at one stretch). I also think the 3 he hit right before the first half ended was the turning point of Game 6. Durant was the driving force behind OKC's win over the Spurs. I don't know how anyone could dispute that. San Antonio simply could not defend him.

None of that production matters. All that matters is Harden hit two big shots 24 seconds before the game ended.

Production means nothing, remember?

Who said that? I know I never said that.

That post isn't directed at you, even though it was in response to your post.

I know Durant is their best player and the primary reason they are as good as they are. I'm simply making a point that production means a lot. Those 'big shots' don't decide everything. They aren't even a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[mattg]

Lebron has been "that dude" his entire career. It doesnt take one of the best playoff performances in history to become "that dude". I've never seen a player and his scoring ability written off so much. James is a 27ppg guy on his career and better in the playoffs.

[aboveAverage]

Saw the game last night. No way do the Heat ever lose if LeBron plays like that. I've never seen him so motivated and committed to win. You could see it in his eyes last night, that he was not losing that game. If he could string that together, watch out.

[Newz]

Great production and no rings = Karl Malone.

Also, quotes like these are ridiculous. You realize you are battling your own argument, right?

Yes, Karl Malone never won a ring. He's still one of the top five players to ever play his position and one of the best players to ever play in the NBA.

Kevin Garnett is a good example of this as well. Was he any less great before he won a ring? Sure, a lot of people had ridiculous arguments about how he couldn't carry terrible teams to victory... but he was the same player in Minnesota as he was in Boston.

[Nebula1]

Garnett took a step up in greatness when he went to Boston. There was greater pressure and expectations and they met them. If Lebron and the Heat do the same, it will elevate Lebron's greatness in the same fashion.

[Newz]

Garnett took a step up in greatness when he went to Boston.

False. His supporting cast took a step up and thus they could achieve more as a team.

It is mind boggling how people think champions are individual accomplishments.

[mattg]

Garnett took a step up in greatness when he went to Boston. There was greater pressure and expectations and they met them. If Lebron and the Heat do the same, it will elevate Lebron's greatness in the same fashion.

In terms of legacy, then yeah a title adds to greatness. But you don't honestly think that a player gets more impactful on the court when he wins a championship?

[Ayt]

In addition to that, I would say I wouldn't trust LeBron as a GM after he retires. If he made those moves in Cleveland and then chose Miami over Chicago... he has a pretty bad track record.

The Bulls didn't exactly look like a superpower in the making at that point.

[Ayt]

Like I said, I think it's very difficult to figure out the best way to handle a superstar. Magic forced out a head coach in LA and that ended up working out great. Jordan would berate his teammates and often ridicule them. Kobe tried to get Bynum traded. LeBron was an enormous douchebag in Cleveland. But when you have players like that you often bend over backwards to appease those players because they're superstars. So yes I say in retrospect because if LeBron was still in Cleveland I'm willing to bet they'd still be bending over for him and not bothering to ask for any lube.

Which just reinforces the idea that the GM there was incompetent. I don't see how what you typed above is an indictment of LeBron in any way. Where is the proof he even meddled that much while with the Cavs?

[InsideOut]

Also, bringing up players with similar production when talking about LeBron isn't really relevant. No one in the NBA produces at his level right now.

Only Ws matter in the postseason and it's the responsibility of the best player to get his team those Ws. Great production and no rings = Karl Malone. Lebron is a rich man's Dominique Wilkins.

So Karl Malone's team couldn't beat maybe the best player on maybe the best team ever and you think that is a slight to Karl Malone? All it means is Karl Malone didn't play for maybe the greatest team ever. But using your KG logic if Karl Malone left the Jazz and won a title by signing with the Bulls (like KG to Boston) then he becomes a great player. That type of logic is beyond my comprehension.

I see you just won't answer my question of if you value production over rings so I'll consider it ducked.

[Sigra]

If you had 1st pick to put a team together to win a title next season who here wouldn't take James with that 1st pick?

I'd take Kevin Durant

I would take Dwight Howard

[Nebula1]

I value rings over production, obviously. But you slanted the question to be about signing players, which is a nonsense angle. Like I said before, I would rather win a championship with poor production than lose with good production.

And yes, it's a slight against Malone that he couldn't defeat Jordan's Bulls. It also elevated Jordan's greatness that he never lost a Finals and was that dude.

[Nebula1]

Garnett took a step up in greatness when he went to Boston. There was greater pressure and expectations and they met them. If Lebron and the Heat do the same, it will elevate Lebron's greatness in the same fashion.

In terms of legacy, then yeah a title adds to greatness. But you don't honestly think that a player gets more impactful on the court when he wins a championship?

Garnett elevated his game when he got to Boston. By default, playing with better players elevates your game (at least it should) and he was the galvanizing force that earned them a title. So yes, I'd say he had a greater impact on the floor because situationally the pressure was higher every game and therefore the demand on his game was higher.

[Ayt]

I always come back to this article.

Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

Chicago called heads in a 1979 coin flip with Los Angeles for the No. 1 pick in the NBA college draft. It came up tails.

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/ ... 3_1_lakers

What Magic would have done is worse than leaving via free agency, IMO.

Also, I think it is an interesting thought experiment to imagine if LeBron (after two years in college) was the one drafted back then instead of Magic. Playing with a 32 year old Kareem (and the rest of the very good players back then) would have been an excellent opportunity compared to the garbage he was stuck with for so long.