Raptors NBA Draft Thread: Austin Rivers (NOH)

cookieman · Post #101 » by **cookieman** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 2:41 pm

I like Rivers, and it's cool that he measured out 6'5", but I see him as a PG in the future. Like a Steph Curry. He has better playmaking ability than he's given credit for, and if he ends up backing up Nash for a year or two, I believe he can be special.

Two things I want out of this draft - breakdown ability from the perimeter and a real leader who wants the ball and takes big shots. Rivers can potentially provide both.

Post #102 » by **theSkinny** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 4:41 pm

He could for sure cookie, I like him a lot as a prospect..but am so so on him here.

Post #103 » by **Undefeated** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 4:44 pm

You know what, if Austin Rivers truly stands at 6-foot-5 in shoes, then you can count me in as a believer. He's still a fair bit undersized for his position at SG, but I guess he makes that up with his above-average 6'7" wingspan. Now that the talks about whether or not he's a PG or a SG are out of the way making it one less thing to worry about my problem still lies within how the Raptors will incorporate him into the offense because he's just so ball-dominant. The skills are obviously there, but when it's time to start putting a premier on building the offense around as a team I don't see how Rivers will have a productive role. Of course if he continues to work on his 3-pt shooting by hitting those corner-3s, then he'll be invaluable. But he's not the type of scorer to play off of the ball. He needs the ball in his hands at all times because his offense is basically a "feel" offense. When he shoots, he needs to be playing with his handles before he can step into a jumper. He can't catch-and-shoot for the quick short pull-up and to a lesser degree spot-up.

Then there's the concern about his ability to make plays on the ball and off the ball. He's a capable and willing passer, but that's just as much as Bargnani being a capable passer making those bullet interior look-the-other-way pass once every blue moon. And he never moves as soon as he passes of the ball. This is something every player learns in HS; never stay in the same spot for more than 2 seconds. Westbrook's critics always bring up that he's a ball-hog as the numbers in the assists column holds that narrative, but we don't realize how often he sets those off-the-ball pin-down screens to free up Durant and Harden. Those indirect "screen-assist" creates tons of quality looks for his teammates. I just wish Rivers would have shown some of those off the ball plays like Bradley Beal has. I can understand him not always being a pass-first because that's not how he sees the game, but what happens when his shots aren't dropping? Is he going to continue to hoist up shots without any regards for his surrounding shooting the team out of the game? It could potentially happen as we've seen it happen sometimes at Duke. And there are times where he'll shoot the lights out from the field making tough, contested fallaways. I'm not sure I can support a player who has that love-hate feeling on a game-to-game basis after going through with Bargnani for 6 years with the same emotions.

If the Raptors want this type of prospect, then Tony Wroten Jr. is the guy who is currently projected to go much lower, but with the similar skillset with better court-vision. It's good that Rivers has that alpha male confidence because confidence can take your game leaps and bounds, but it's harmful when you have false confidence which I see from Rivers. Until his skills actually reach where his confidence is at, that's when he'll start to play smarter and effectively.

lucky777s · Post #104 » by **lucky777s** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:01 pm

I was surprised by Rivers measurements and it really has me leaning from Lamb to Rivers. There is just no question about the desire and competitiveness with Rivers and you get the nice ballhandling that I liked about Lamb over a Beal or Barnes. Plus he can play spot minutes at PG and potentially be a starting PG.

I would strongly consider Rivers at 8. His size makes him more flexible to use in different spots than Lillard as well.

ty123 · Post #105 » by **ty123** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:08 pm

If Rivers wants to suceed at the next level, he needs to be able to run the PG position. Sort of like a Westbrook. Doesn't jump as high but has almost as good a first step. If he's playing SG it will be a disaster. He's not 6'5. No one plays in 2 inch shoes. He's 6'4 with shoes on.

Kid Canada · Post #106 » by **Kid Canada** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:15 pm

His size is fine for a SG. I am a duke fan and I preferred Lamb over Rivers up until after the combine. Lamb doesn't have the killer instinct that Rivers has. We need someone who can nail a game winner.

Post #107 » by **Undefeated** » Sat Jun 9, 2012 5:18 pm

ty123 wrote:If Rivers wants to suceed at the next level, he needs to be able to run the PG position. Sort of like a Westbrook. Doesn't jump as high but has almost as good a first step. If he's playing SG it will be a disaster. He's not 6'5. No one plays in 2 inch shoes. He's 6'4 with shoes on.

If we're expecting Rivers to create for others left and right, then I think we might be left disappointed. What I think Rivers needs to do is improve his decision-making. If he can learn to pick his spots instead of forcing passes, drives, and shots, it'll be a lot more tolerable to watch. Making smart reads and not forcing anything and I'd be satisfied with Rivers.

Post #108 » by **Double Helix** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:56 pm

I posted this list of guys before in the Dion Waiters thread but when you look at how weak the SG spot is and you look at how few staring caliber 6'7 SGs there are at the moment... Doesn't 6'5 Austin Rivers with his 6'7 wingspan become more appealing?

Quick list of notable combo guards and 2s around 6'5 and under...

Dwyane Wade
James Harden
Rodney Stuckey
OJ Mayo
Monta Ellis
Marcus Thornton
Tyreke Evans
Marco Bellinelli
JJ Reddick
Wesley Mathews
Randy Foye
Courney Lee
Jordan Crawford
Ben Gordon
Iman Shumpert
JR Smith
Chauncey Billups
Ray Allen
Eric Gordon
Brad Beal
Lou Williams
Manu Ginobili
Kevin Martin
Jamal Crawford

Here are some notable SGs/combo guards standing closer to 6'7 or so.

Joe Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Evan Turner
Nick Young
John Salmons
Jeremy lamb (due to wingspan)

So, not only is the SG spot very weak at the moment it's also not as big as it once was. When you look at how weak it is and what other teams are running out at the 2 spot... Any chance Rivers can guard those guys at an acceptable degree (most SGs on that list aren't amazing defenders) and expose those other offensively when he starts putting on more muscle? With the exceptions of Wade, Evans, Ellis, Kobe, Lou, Ginobili and Harden... who else on that list has Rivers ball handling skills/penetration skills? Doesn't that make him special in the league?

I look at this list and wonder... If he can guard the 2... who could he be better than? Quite a few of the names are starting SGs because there just isn't enough special talent to go around. What if this kid makes a big step forward next year (the kind of year he might have had had he stayed in school) in terms of development and ends up being a cross between Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry while being able to play the 2 full time? Wishful thinking? Absolutely but the fear of passing that up and watching that develop on another team is pretty scary to me. If he didn't have such a good head on his shoulders and access to so many great mentors I'd be less fearful but I think the kid has more to show and part of the reason I'm intrigued is because I'd hate to see that show on some other team. Exciting 6'5 players with breakdown ability and alpha mentalities aren't as easy to find as it seems. He'd need to improve a lot but he is only 19.

DreamTeam09 · Post #109 » by **DreamTeam09** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:11 pm

Rivers at 6'5 200lbs as a rookie can be an everyday starting sg. Hes already better than oj mayo b4 even playing a game so his floor should be around that level lol. He prolly has the nodd over lamb ri now in my books.

SwiftyV · Post #110 » by **SwiftyV** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:45 pm

ty123 wrote:If Rivers wants to suceed at the next level, he needs to be able to run the PG position. Sort of like a Westbrook. Doesn't jump as high but has almost as good a first step. If he's playing SG it will be a disaster. He's not 6'5. No one plays in 2 inch shoes. He's 6'4 with shoes on.

2 inches in shoes? What are you talking about. He was 6'3.5 without shoes and was 6'5 in shoes...he didn't gain 2 inches, he gained the normal 1.5.

WHY does he need to run the PG position to be successful? Why can't he be a pure SG? He is a decent shooter and great at driving..I have no idea why people are making this assumption that he must be able to play PG at the next level. Yet, Beal, another short SG, doesn't need to?

Post #111 » by **Double Helix** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:46 pm

SwiftyV wrote:
ty123 wrote:If Rivers wants to suceed at the next level, he needs to be able to run the PG position. Sort of like a Westbrook. Doesn't jump as high but has almost as good a first step. If he's playing SG it will be a disaster. He's not 6'5. No one plays in 2 inch shoes. He's 6'4 with shoes on.

2 inches in shoes? What are you talking about. He was 6'3.5 without shoes and was 6'5 in shoes...he didn't gain 2 inches, he gained the normal 1.5.

WHY does he need to run the PG position to be successful? Why can't he be a pure SG? He is a decent shooter and great at driving..I have no idea why people are making this assumption that he must be able to play PG at the next level. Yet, Beal, another short SG, doesn't need to?

As highlighted above... there are a lot of 6'5 and under scoring guards in the league these days. And the lack of quality SGs that are at the ideal height of 6'6 or 6'7 has allowed this new wave of smaller guards to come in and take their place. Teams want talent at those spots, not a bunch of Joey Graham types who are tall and built like trucks but have less talent.

HolyMage110 · Post #112 » by **HolyMage110** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:07 pm

why not consider to move back and actually draft rivers?
the guy did pretty good in his interviews and i feel like he can actually be a great leader for a team
even though he may have trouble with assisting, he could learn to do so
im not saying that WE SHOULD DRAFT RIVERS, but we should maybe consider him

MEDIC · Post #113 » by **MEDIC** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:26 pm

This guys makes more sense for this team than Lillard does. If we're going to draft a combo guard, at least draft one that has the proper size to play the 2.

Plus, the guy is 2 years younger than Lillard & had a much better freshman season than Lillard did (in a better conference).

JPHolling · Post #114 » by **JPHolling** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:47 am

HolyMage110 wrote:why not consider to move back and actually draft rivers?
the guy did pretty good in his interviews and i feel like he can actually be a great leader for a team
even though he may have trouble with assisting, he could learn to do so
im not saying that WE SHOULD DRAFT RIVERS, but we should maybe consider him

with a player like rivers, its really hard to judge what range he belongs in because of his potential, could be taken anywhere from 8th-14th, (unlikely taken by the bucks) so what draft pick do you target to trade down to? and what asset will you get in return? and is that asset worth the risk of a team selecting him before?

If raptors select Rivers, i dont feel its really a reach. This time last year (like many players in this draft) was considered the top overall pick in some mocks.

HolyMage110 · Post #115 » by **HolyMage110** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:51 am

JPHolling wrote:
HolyMage110 wrote:why not consider to move back and actually draft rivers?
the guy did pretty good in his interviews and i feel like he can actually be a great leader for a team
even though he may have trouble with assisting, he could learn to do so
im not saying that WE SHOULD DRAFT RIVERS, but we should maybe consider him

with a player like rivers, its really hard to judge what range he belongs in because of his potential, could be taken anywhere from 8th-14th, (unlikely taken by the bucks) so what draft pick do you target to trade down to? and what asset will you get in return? and is that asset worth the risk of a team selecting him before?

If raptors select Rivers, i dont feel its really a reach. This time last year (like many players in this draft) was considered the top overall pick in some mocks.

i totally agree with you
at this point, i think lamb is starting to fall and austin is going up
austin has a better motor than lamb for sure

i wouldnt mind if the raps actually draft him
hes a great player and has potential
He seems like hes really mature and could lead to high basketball IQ
idk why alot of guys are hating on him

Blasphemy · Post #116 » by **Blasphemy** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:06 am

Raps fan's needs to realize that Austin Rivers will be our PICK, enough with the Jeremy Lambchop love.

Live Free · Post #117 » by **Live Free** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:44 am

McFurious1 · Post #118 » by **McFurious1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:00 pm

I'm on the Austin Rivers train like what the kid brings to the table and franchise.

team edward · Post #119 » by **team edward** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:26 pm

Lamb comes across as more of a burned out pothead than my first year roomie, and that guy was the biggest burned out pothead I've ever known. If we're building a culture of driven, hardworking young players with a chip on their shoulder, based on what I've seen Rivers is a far better fit. But this is all speculation - just give them both the caliper test, and see who comes out on top...

Post #120 » by **Double Helix** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:07 pm

I'm less on the train than I was before after looking at his max vert reach (Jrue Holiday territory) and strength scores. Still not fully jumping off because the talent is there but I think I would have been more firmly on board had he tested more like other SGs and less like PGs.

It seems like every player at 8 has significant question marks. Lillard may have the least but he's the oldest and played in the worst conference. Somebody will hit a homerun or 2 from 8-15 in this draft but it may end up just being a lucky pick based on who was already taken ahead of them.

If still on the Board by our pick what are the chanches we draft him?