1st rd pick general discussion #2 overall (Poll Added)

[SWedd523]

You literally got every single one of those players' measured heights wrong.


Rivers is a ball hog with terrible shooting form and horrible team instincts, a weak and lazy defender, and pouts more than a 5 year old. And while he has a quick first step, he's an average athlete and has a small frame.

No thanks

[Eoghan]

Bro. Dave, you know something that I think makes Rivers different, he doesn't seem to be a typical Duke type player and I think his style of play and that Duke system wasn't a good fit for him. Rivers would've excelled even moreso had he played at a scholl that gave him more freedom to do his thing, I think the same is true for Harrison Barnes for that matter. These are two guys who took their talents to system type schools and in cases like that you compromise your individual talent for the benefit of the team in order to win the NCAA tourney.

Very valid points, an insightful counterargument indeed. But I'm still more inclined to agree with SW here. VVV (Although not quite as harshly.)

Rivers is a ball hog with terrible shooting form and horrible team instincts, a weak and lazy defender, and pouts more than a 5 year old. And while he has a quick first step, he's an average athlete and has a small frame.

No thanks

The only way I envision us drafting Rivers is if Cho has some sort of machine that will morph him with Hendo, combining their shooting, athleticism, handle and defense. Gerald Rivers would be a quality starting SG.

[TheKingofSting]

rick has some stuff posted today
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/0 ... close.html

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/0 ... ni_popular

Then Kansas’ chances defaulted to Robinson, and it turned out this tough, if athletically-limited, kid from Washington, D.C., was a difference-maker. He essentially doubled his productivity, to over 17 points and 11 rebounds, his last college season.

The balance: So who would you want? Kidd-Gilchrist, the gifted guy with the incomplete resume and the socially-awkward persona. Or the accomplished power forward with the low ceiling and the brooding persona.

[penquin11]

Whoever wrote that article talked straight out of his ass...

[SWedd523]

Not a good argument to make.

At least according to him, Robinson has the talent to be the #2 pick. Beal isn't even mentioned

[TheKingofSting]

Not a good argument to make.

At least according to him, Robinson has the talent to be the #2 pick. Beal isn't even mentioned

Beal is scheduled to workout for us, Robinson is not.

[captaincrunk]

Oden's injuries were just that: injuries. Ammo had some too.

A bust is a bust. It doesn't matter why.

Of course it matters why. Without extensive medical testing there doesn't seem to be anything you can do to predict an injury, it's just an unfortunate tragedy.

When people talk about it, they seem to point to flashes of brilliance.

I assure you, Robinson had way more flashes of brilliance than Drummond.

And I would say that Quality > Quantity in this regard. That's why one might say Drummond has a higher ceiling.

What's to say he can? Surely there are things that exist that can be said to point to one or the other. I'm asking you which you like to look at.

I'm trying to say nobody, including me, has any clue.

Then don't bother talking about it. You can sit in your corner, cover your ears and scream lullabies while the rest of us talk about the draft picks.

If I were in charge and I was looking at "potential ceiling", the only things I can think of to look at would be intelligence, both in general and in terms of BBIQ, and work ethic.

I would want a guy who wants to put in the time to get better. A guy with fire and determination. A guy who hates to lose. Those types of things.

Because you can't develop unless you work hard. If you're lazy, you can have MJ 2.0 talent and it wouldn't matter.

So wouldn't a "lazy" bust be of a different kind than someone whose injuries caused them to fail?

I know what you're saying and I've lightened up my distaste for Rivers but I just can't ignore the horrible track record of Duke combo guards transitioning to the point in the NBA. Jason Williams bounced out due to injury, JJ Reddick, now Nolan Smith. Really, the best one I can think of in recent memory is Chris Duhon and that's not too appealing.

JJ Redick is better than Chris Duhon.

[Eoghan]

JJ Redick is better than Chris Duhon.

We're talking about in the context of transitioning to point guard. I remember there being talk that Reddick's longevity in the NBA would be tied to being able to run the point some.

[captaincrunk]

JJ Redick is better than Chris Duhon.

We're talking about in the context of transitioning to point guard. I remember there being talk that Reddick's longevity in the NBA would be tied to being able to run the point some.

He does alright with it but yeah that's clearly not what's keeping him in the NBA. Duhon though, ask anyone in Orlando, they think he's crap.

[SWedd523]

Of course it matters why. Without extensive medical testing there doesn't seem to be anything you can do to predict an injury, it's just an unfortunate tragedy.

jusssst like you can't predict a guy would be a bust for any other reason. That's the point. A bust is simply a player who didn't live up to their hype/potential/draft slot.

It doesn't really matter why. Being injury prone is a sad way to go about being a bust, but it still amounts to the same thing.

And I would say that Quality > Quantity in this regard. That's why one might say Drummond has a higher ceiling.

Drummond's best 5 games against quality opponents:

12/10/7 against Florida State
16/11/1 against St. Johns
20/11/3 against West Virginia
17/14/3 against Syracuse
14/10/3 against Syracuse

Robinson's best 5 games against quality oppenents:

20/12/2 against Georgetown
16/15/1 against Duke
27/14/1 against Baylor
28/12/1 against Missouri
18/17/0 against Kentucky (National Championship game)

neither one really stands out against the other.

Then don't bother talking about it. You can sit in your corner, cover your ears and scream lullabies while the rest of us talk about the draft picks.

How cute. For a philosophy student, you're an pretty big assclown. Don't you have some weed to go smoke Andy?

So wouldn't a "lazy" bust be of a different kind than someone whose injuries caused them to fail?

No

[captaincrunk]

Of course it matters why. Without extensive medical testing there doesn't seem to be anything you can do to predict an injury, it's just an unfortunate tragedy.

jusssst like you can't predict a guy would be a bust for any other reason. That's the point. A bust is simply a player who didn't live up to their hype/potential/draft slot.

This is foolish. You just insist that any kind of prediction is impossible.

The possibility of being wrong does not preclude the possibility of one theory having greater weight or likelihood than another.

It doesn't really matter why. Being injury prone is a sad way to go about being a bust, but it still amounts to the same thing.

It matters from a scouting point of view. If Cho picks a guy who goes for 30 15 and 15 I'll praise the pick even if the guy was killed in a car accident the next year. That's still be a "bust" according to your logic. I'd want Cho to look for draft picks again.

And I would say that Quality > Quantity in this regard. That's why one might say Drummond has a higher ceiling.

Drummond's best 5 games against quality opponents:

12/10/7 against Florida State
16/11/1 against St. Johns
20/11/3 against West Virginia
17/14/3 against Syracuse
14/10/3 against Syracuse

Robinson's best 5 games against quality oppenents:

20/12/2 against Georgetown
16/15/1 against Duke
27/14/1 against Baylor
28/12/1 against Missouri
18/17/0 against Kentucky (National Championship game)

neither one really stands out against the other.

It's not about entire games, either. It could be a single play or two in a row that hints at the possibilities. But I've never claimed to be a scout.

Then don't bother talking about it. You can sit in your corner, cover your ears and scream lullabies while the rest of us talk about the draft picks.

How cute. For a philosophy student, you're an pretty big assclown. Don't you have some weed to go smoke Andy?

Reported dude. Anything I say to this personal attack will just get me banned.

So wouldn't a "lazy" bust be of a different kind than someone whose injuries caused them to fail?

No

Just like a wife whose bad at sex because she's paralyzed is no different from the one who simply doesn't care.

You've got a one track mind.

[fatlever]

once again.... get this back on topic. cut out the personal attacks, the baiting and all the other bull that i keep reading. crunk, i realize it takes two to get in silly arguments like this, but you are in the middle of every damn one of these over the past few weeks. needless to say you are almost always the instigator. cut it out. swedd, no need to go there.

[debo23]

[SWedd523]

Not worth responding to other than to say it's hilariously ironic for crunk of all people to be submitting ”reports”. Just like the little kid who talks **** to his big brother then complains to mommy when he gets a black eye.

Sorry fats but how many warnings does this troll get?

[Jaruff]

I have to agree with SWedd. A bust is a bust.

Jay Williams is a bust. However, you can't blame Chicago's scouting department for that. Len Bias is another bust. You can't blame Boston for that. Both players provided very little (or nothing) to their teams in regards to their draft slot.

If a lotto pick doesn't live up to expectations, he's a bust imo. Doesn't matter if he suffers an injury like Oden or Morrison or if he just sucks like Joe Alexander. Scouting departments can't take the same amount of blame for an Oden as they can an Alexander. Regardless, the production wasn't there so that player receives bust status, whether it's deserving or not.

[JMAC3]

NBADraft.net updated their mock.

Have us taking Andre Drummond.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012mock_draft

[Jaruff]

It would be a shame to pass up on Tony Wroten if he falls. Fournier too.

I would be fine with Drummond. As long as we avoid T-Rob and MKG, I'm good with whomever we pick.

[captaincrunk]

Not worth responding to other than to say it's hilariously ironic for crunk of all people to be submitting ”reports”. Just like the little kid who talks **** to his big brother then complains to mommy when he gets a black eye.

Sorry fats but how many warnings does this troll get?

reporting this one too dude. keep running your mouth, I'm not the one who has to deal with it.

[BigSlam]

Not worth responding to other than to say it's hilariously ironic for crunk of all people to be submitting ”reports”. Just like the little kid who talks **** to his big brother then complains to mommy when he gets a black eye.

Sorry fats but how many warnings does this troll get?

reporting this one too dude. keep running your mouth, I'm not the one who has to deal with it.

captaincrunk you are one more post that derails a thread or attacks someone away from having your account permanently waived from RGM.

Take this as your very last warning.

[captaincrunk]

I have to agree with SWedd. A bust is a bust.

Jay Williams is a bust. However, you can't blame Chicago's scouting department for that. Len Bias is another bust. You can't blame Boston for that. Both players provided very little (or nothing) to their teams in regards to their draft slot.

If a lotto pick doesn't live up to expectations, he's a bust imo. Doesn't matter if he suffers an injury like Oden or Morrison or if he just sucks like Joe Alexander. Scouting departments can't take the same amount of blame for an Oden as they can an Alexander. Regardless, the production wasn't there so that player receives bust status, whether it's deserving or not.

So now all a bust is a player who isn't very good... Not a player who was expected to be good and failed due to some flaw in their ability/drive/whatever. So Shaq was a bust in his final season, because the production was no longer there? Len Bias is a bust the day after he dies but not the day before? Seems pedantic to me. What's the point of the word bust if it applies to such a huge class of people?

EDIT: ^ you have a PM