SixerFan1976 Offseason Thread (Update Pg 73)

[SixerFever215]

It would be great if Sullinger slips that far. But I just can't believe he will drop to 15. He will impress someone in workouts and be long gone by the time we pick.

I understand ur point but he should be talked about as a top 5 pick but hes not. You know how the draft is there's always a new hot player that shoots up the draft board and there's a player like Jared who did great in college who might have less upside not get talked about a fall on draft day. I can see a guy like Perry Jones getting picked before him just off upside Royce White is also another name too everybody loves him.

[51X3RF4N]

The Iggy to Toronto trade "rumor" wasn't really a rumor. SF confirmed it was real in that Tor offered a deal and the Sixers said they'd think about it.

Waiters was recently analyzed and the words used to describe him were "Pound 4 pound the 2nd best player in the draft. 'IT' factor." Have we heard that before about a prolific scorer in Sixers history who wasn't quite a PG and wasn't quite a SG?

If the Sixers traded up to get him, I would think Turner is gone. Jrue is the new Eric Snow. Thad is the Georgy Lynch. Lavoy Allen is the Tyrone Hill. Who plays Mutumbo? Maybe a Hibbert signing?

You never know, stranger things have happened.

[ryst]

Young is the new Lynch? lol

Young is a tweener who cant bang with the big boys down low and cant keep up with the quicker guys on the perimeter

he should be traded asap for anything they can get, it was a mistake resigning him
Young will never do anything in the playoffs

[The Sixer Fixer]

I don't think re-signing Young was a mistake, but signing him for as much as we did....now THAT was a mistake.

He was restricted. Did he get an offer from another club or did the Sixers determine that was his value? I don't remember hearing anyone else made him an offer. If he made somewhere in the 5.5-6.5 million/yr range, I think he would be fine either here (for now) OR he would have more trade value around the league. Young is a great "off the bench" spark for a team that needs offense off the bench. He just doesn't fit with this group we have. Maybe if we had a dominant defensive C to put next to him it would work. How do we get that guy when you have bench guys making over 8 mil/yr though?

[51X3RF4N]

I meant from a "scrapper" perspective. He always dives for loose balls and crap. Didn't mean to incite your hatred for him.

Seriously though, on Waiters...before I watched the DX scouting report where Boheim talks about who he compares to with his style, I was thinking a cross between Wade and Iverson. All the good that Wade brings to the table, mixed with all the bad that Ivy brought.

Obviously, if the Sixers end up drafting or trading up for the guy, they must be pretty strong in their conviction that he will be a star.

Putting him next to Jrue allows Jrue to cover the other team's SG. Also allows Jrue to continue playing off the ball some, while Waiters creates his opportunities.

I would think Iggy would be involved in a trade up for him, meaning the Sixers would need a replacement SF. Preferrably one who can hit a 3 for the times Waiters needs to dish it out after pulling the D in.

Iggy and #15 for Ed Davis, #8, and Calderon? Then maybe Turner/Thad for Okafor/#10?

Jrue/Calderon
Waiters/Meeks
T. Ross/S. Young
Allen/Ed Davis/Brand
Okafor/Vucevic

Ross is the perfect 3 for that linuep, in that he plays D and hits 3pt shots. Overall, a very good defensive team too. Outside shooters in Ross, Waiters, Calderon, Meeks and Jrue (to a degree). Post scoring from Vuc, Brand, and Allen. Post D from Okafor and Ed Davis. Shotblocking from Davis.

[Arsenal]

We'd be crazy to not trade Evan Turner for Tyreke Evans if offered. Evans has way more upside and athleticism, and is younger also. Bring him here and start him at the SG between Holiday and Iguodala, and his shooting percentages would rise too compared to playing in the black hole that is Sacramento. Need to trust that Doug Collins can reign him in, which is way more likely than Evan Turner magically developing some athleticism.

[corwin]

The Iggy to Toronto trade "rumor" wasn't really a rumor. SF confirmed it was real in that Tor offered a deal and the Sixers said they'd think about it.

Waiters was recently analyzed and the words used to describe him were "Pound 4 pound the 2nd best player in the draft. 'IT' factor." Have we heard that before about a prolific scorer in Sixers history who wasn't quite a PG and wasn't quite a SG?

If the Sixers traded up to get him, I would think Turner is gone. Jrue is the new Eric Snow. Thad is the Georgy Lynch. Lavoy Allen is the Tyrone Hill. Who plays Mutumbo? Maybe a Hibbert signing?

You never know, stranger things have happened.

Most of this is why I asked. I think that ET would probably still stay, since he's a 3 position guy & could play the 3 next year. If we didn't have to give up #15, you end up with Waiters at #8 & possibly Sullinger, Moultrie, or PJIII at #15. A year from now Brand comes off & you have tons of cap space & a very talented young team. You're right, stranger things have happened.

[And 1 Ref]

Doc Rivers has never been a good coach until he got Ray Allen, KG, and a great PG. When he was with Orlando he no idea how to win with Tracy McGrady. I am not a big DC fan. But Doc Rivers is not any better.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Doc win Coach of the Year award with that Magic team that didn't make the playoffs. In fact, I believe he was the first Coach in the history of the league to accomplish such a feat. I believe they went by the moniker of "Heart&Hustle". Also in Docs defense, Tracy McGrady had no idea how to win with Tracy McGrady, just look at his days with the Rockets.

[Sixerscan]

Doc Rivers has never been a good coach until he got Ray Allen, KG, and a great PG. When he was with Orlando he no idea how to win with Tracy McGrady. I am not a big DC fan. But Doc Rivers is not any better.

You can say this about any coach ever which is why people's fascination with acting like a head coach's game day decisions has a huge impact on how good a team is or how well a grown man develops at basketball is stupid. Good players are good. Teams with good players that fit well together are good. End of story.

[Kobblehead]

Doc Rivers is an excellent coach. He has great temperament, he is respected and appreciated by players, and he is a great playcaller. Boston (unlike 90% of the NBA) run set plays at the end of games/quarters and crucial spots instead of letting people isolate. Just because he didn't find success before the big 3 came together didn't mean he wasn't a great coach.

[Sixerscan]

Doc Rivers is an excellent coach. He has great temperament, he is respected and appreciated by players, and he is a great playcaller. Boston (unlike 90% of the NBA) run set plays at the end of games/quarters and crucial spots instead of letting people isolate. Just because he didn't find success before the big 3 came together didn't mean he wasn't a great coach.

How much of that is that he has arguably the smartest and unselfish end game lineup in the game though? Is it really a surprise that cerebral rosters like the Celtics or Mavs are great at running plays like that? When Doc was with the Magic they certainly weren't known for effective complex plays. They were known for TMac doing isos.

Larry Brown's Sixers and Pistons teams ran the best inbounds plays in the league. Larry Brown's Knicks and Bobcats teams could barely get the ball in. The difference wasn't Larry Brown. The NBA is a players league.

[Kobblehead]

So what are you saying? Guys like Doc Rivers and Greg Popovich are mere beneficiaries of veteran laced lineups that run themselves? I'm sorry, but that's bull****. In my opinion, coaching has a higher impact that you're willing to acknowledge.

[Sixerscan]

So what are you saying? Guys like Doc Rivers and Greg Popovich are mere beneficiaries of veteran laced lineups that run themselves? I'm sorry, but that's bull****. In my opinion, coaching has a higher impact that you're implying.

No I'm saying having the rosters that they do allows them to do things to a higher degree that other teams cannot.

A coach's largest impact is at practice and in training camp. The value of any decisions a coach makes during a game pales in comparison to the hours of practice that have happened before hand.

But at the end of the day, a coach is only as good as the talent around him. See: Spolestra and Brooks being the coaches in the finals (And beating Doc and Pop in the process). Mike Brown taking a team just as far as Phil Jackson did the year before. Vinny Del Negro winning a playoff round. etc etc etc.

[Kobblehead]

Look, I agree with alot of what you're saying. Yes, having a veteran lineup is a major advantage. Yes, the groundwork to a well-run team begins at training camp and is further built in practices.

However, I couldn't disagree more on your stance towards in-game coaching. I mean come on now, this exact issue is something we've been talking about all year. Very few teams were as well-prepared as the Sixers for each game. However, some of Collins in-game decisions hindered us at times.

In my opinion, you are SEVERELY underrating the impact of these things have on the outcomes of games. These are the types of things Doc Rivers excels at.
- pushing the right buttons in terms of lineup changes and substitutions
- taking advantage of mismatches through playcalling
- adjusting on the fly to stop something the other team is having success with
- controlling the tempo of the game and stopping opponent momentum surges

[Sixerscan]

Let me just get this out of the way: It would be incorrect and misleading to say that no decision collins has ever made has ever cost us points, or even a game.

That being said:

Doc Rivers is able to take advantage of mismatches BECAUSE HE HAS MISMATCHES TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF. Kevin Garnett has an unblockable jumpshot. Pierce can get to the line any time he wants to. When Rondo's jumper is even sort of good he's unstoppable.

This Sixers team just didn't have the offensive talent to "attack" mismatches outside of Jrue. Iguodala can't take people off the dribble. Turner took more shots than anyone on the team in the Boston series and shot 34% and got outplayed by a guy on one leg in game 7. Outside of one or two games Thad and Lou were awful. Hawes and Brand were very hit or miss.

Moreover, Doc can make those judgment calls because he knows how his guys will react, based on a career long sample and them being stable basketball players. Heck, if you've watched the Celtics for any length of time, you can probably tell. Does anyone know wtf is going through Turner's or even Iggy's mind at some points?

And let me just note that of the 5 games in that series that were in doubt during the 4th quarter, we actually won 3 of them.

[ryst]

you guys are getting to much into it when i see it as a simple issue

the big difference between Rivers and Collins is this in my opinion:

when facing an in game situation rivers will always go with the correct call
it might not work all the time but it will always be the right play

when collins needs something he do some things that defy logic sometimes,like giving the ball to Lou again and again at the end of game

[Kobblehead]

But Sixerscan, take the same Boston roster and have Jim O'Brien coach them. Do you think they get 1 quarter away from the Finals? Doc Rivers isn't as interchangeable as you're implying. I'd argue he was the most important person in the Celtics organization over the past two seasons. As the big 3 aged, this belief just became more apparent to me.

[Sixerscan]

But Sixerscan, take the same Boston roster and have Jim O'Brien coach them. Do you think they get 1 quarter away from the Finals? Doc Rivers isn't as interchangeable as you're implying. I'd argue he was the most important person in the Celtics organization over the past two seasons. As the big 3 aged, this belief just became more apparent to me.

I don't know. Maybe? O'Brien certainly took a worse team to the Conference finals in 2002 than this current Celtics team. That Pistons team they beat in the 2nd round in 5 games was at least on par with the 12 Sixers that took them 7 or the 12 Hawks that took them 6. Heck that 02 Sixers team that they beat in the first round (Toine's wiggle haunts me to this day) was pretty good themselves, crappy record but had been ravaged by injuries during the regular season and was healthy for the playoffs. Not to mention that the Pistons and Sixers both had great coaches!

Just so we're clear: You think that this Celtic team without Rajon Rondo or Paul Pierce or Kevin MFing Garnett would do worse than a team with all of those guys but without Doc?

[Kobblehead]

Nah, I'm not saying the players are replaceable. I'm just merely saying Doc is not interchangeable.

[Sixerscan]

you said he was the most important... anyway whatever moving on.

I think that there can be coaches that are in over their heads and have no business coaching an NBA basketball team (See: Jordan, Eddie). But even that has more to do with having an overarching plan moreso than ingame stuff.

So I agree that replacing Doc with some bozo off the street would be a bad idea. (Mostly because Garnett would probably threaten the bozo's life at some point, which would not have been good).

But once you get to a certain level of competency (And I believe that a majority of NBA coaches have that competency) a coach's gameday ability is really irrelevant compared to the actual talent on the team and the coaching staff's work that goes into practice and training camp. Otherwise teams with coaches like Spolestra, Flip Saunders, Mike Brown, Avery Johnson etc wouldn't have been able to make it to the NBA finals recently.