Around the NBA / Finals - Part 5

[blumeany]

Thabo was part of the problem that the Bulls still have now - all defense and no offense. I consider the Bulls winners of the trade because generally a productive PF is worth more than a productive SG. It's not like Thabo has gone all-star. He's developed his defensive game and still is god-awful on offense - as noticed by his weak-ass fast break attempts during the last game.

[coldfish]

Thabo --- another shining example of how the Bulls can recognize talent but make them look worse than they are and ultimately squander it away.

You won't find a bigger Thabo fan than me. But I don't think either of the things you wrote is accurate. Thabo looked great as a Bull to those who aren't obsessed with scoring and shot creation. Much of Bulls' fans' negativity towards Thabo - I have a dimestore psychiatric license - was as much or more about defending Ben Gordon and his security on the team. Thabo was perceived as the new Duhon who might wrongfully deprive Ben of his hard earned minutes.

In short, Thabo looked fine as a Bull. Its more that his reputation has caught up with his quality, than anything else. He was an all-league elite perimeter defender when we traded him. He just didn't have the national reputation for it yet.

Also, they didn't squander it. Much as I detested the trade at the time, as well as using the pick on Taj, that clearly was not a bad trade or a squandering of Thabo.

As self appointed leader of the "Thabo must be decapitated at any cost", I feel I have to respond.

Back when Gordon and Thabo were on the team, the Bulls were stacked with defensive players and routinely top 5 in defense. They were abhorrent on offense, but what offense did exist, Gordon was a significant percentage of it. You need both offense and defense to win. By substituting the one shot creator the Bulls had out for a non offensive player, you routinely hurt the team.

Now, fast forward to OKC. Sefolosha is actually playing a wee bit better on offense but that isn't a big factor. Overall, his impact is on defense and for OKC, he is a fantastic fit. They have 3 players who are all better than Gordon by a good margin on offense. At any given time, two of them can be on the court and Sefolosha can be helping them by taking the tough defensive cover. You get both offense and defense.

In summary, I agree that Sefolosha is the same player he was in Chicago. A specialist who is great at defense and awful at offense. In the right situation, that's an asset. For the Skiles era Bulls, it wasn't.

[InsaneBanana]

I like the Heat less than a kid likes getting vegetables on Halloween.

But just because they lost game 1 doesn't mean they will keep losing. It takes a game or two of adjusting but once Lebron, Wade and Bosh have locked in, even OKC will get shaky legs like a virgin in Amsterdam.

I have been predicting all year that OKC will be in the finals, though don't expect the Heat to make the same mistakes they did in game 1.

Miami will come out swinging tonight.

[Deepness5134]

I like the Heat less than a kid likes getting vegetables on Halloween.

But just because they lost game 1 doesn't mean they will keep losing. It takes a game or two of adjusting but once Lebron, Wade and Bosh have locked in, even OKC will get shaky legs like a virgin in Amsterdam.

I have been predicting all year that OKC will be in the finals, though don't expect the Heat to make the same mistakes they did in game 1.

Miami will come out swinging tonight.

Miami doesnt have a hard time coming out swinging. They have a hard time continuing to swing.

They were fine the first half...everyone was playing well. They got complacent and then, like always, once things got close they came up short like the mental midgets they are.

[kyrv]

Thabo --- another shining example of how the Bulls can recognize talent but make them look worse than they are and ultimately squander it away.

You...may want to pick a different shining example than Thabo for Gibson.

Any reason you didn't post this after game two of Spurs-Thunder?

Exactly.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

Big thing for Thabo is he went from a one way player here, to a true "Three and D" guy in the last two years on OKC, in the mold of Bruce Bowen.

If only Ronnie could do that.

When Harden gets his fat deal though, have to wonder if they will continue that rotation.

I thought Ronnie Brewer was already that, then he came here, played a year under Bogans and his stats haven't even come close to his Jazz days.

Yeah the Bulls tend to move young guys that don't have a path to minutes, and frankly, that's a good thing. They got value back from both Thabo and James Johnson, and over the long haul it develops and atmosphere of trust that agents will appreciate.

Thabo and JJ became Taj and Mirotic. In both cases, initial draft position was lost, but thanks to good drafting (and some patience, in the case of Mirotic) the Bulls are getting back promising talent.

Expecting an NBA team to draft 100%, or not have a player switch teams and blossom somewhere else, is just wishful thinking. Guys will come and go, and even the very best front offices miss, because some guys just aren't ready, or move into a role they were better fit to play. Stick Thabo between Durant and Westbrook, and he haS a lot more value there, as a dedicated wing defender, than he does in between Rose and Deng (Deng's already that guy for us).

The Bulls can find talent.

I like Taj and am hopeful for Mirotic.

But looking at the histories of dealing players like JR Smith, BG, Tyson, Thabo I get the feeling that they waste those talents. But maybe that was just Scott Skiles.

Then again under Thibo, we have our main FA acquisition underperforming and our shooting guard by committee performing so poorly that there are yet again demands we find a shooting guard or even make Derrick Rose a shooting guard.

The Bulls just seem to not be able to use a lot of the talent they acquire, or at least the talent doesn't seem to perform under the pressure. Especially in comparison to a more sustainable organization like the Spurs.

One way that seems to define the emergence of championship teams is the emergence of role players at crucial moments: we hear all the time about how some scrub thrown out emerges on the Spurs. Horry, Bowen, Barry.

Other than Taj Gibson, we don't hear about the stepping up or emergence of random role players --- Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer haven't broken through yet, thought Kyle Korver was some kind of 4th quarter genius. They're at the very minimal comparable in talent to those guys above, but we haven't heard a peep out of them yet.

You won't find a bigger Thabo fan than me. But I don't think either of the things you wrote is accurate. Thabo looked great as a Bull to those who aren't obsessed with scoring and shot creation. Much of Bulls' fans' negativity towards Thabo - I have a dimestore psychiatric license - was as much or more about defending Ben Gordon and his security on the team. Thabo was perceived as the new Duhon who might wrongfully deprive Ben of his hard earned minutes.

In short, Thabo looked fine as a Bull. Its more that his reputation has caught up with his quality, than anything else. He was an all-league elite perimeter defender when we traded him. He just didn't have the national reputation for it yet.

Also, they didn't squander it. Much as I detested the trade at the time, as well as using the pick on Taj, that clearly was not a bad trade or a squandering of Thabo.

Eh, I was neutral on Thabo. He should've been BG's backcourt mate back in those days before Derrick Rose; probably a few more BG people thought the same. But either he didn't show enough to Bulls brass or he just wasn't good enough. I always thought it was the organizational commitment to Kirk that got in the way.

Agree that he was a good defensive defender all along and that he just has gained all this reputation based on his performances in the playoffs.

[BULLHITTER]

given the bulls manipulated the thabo situation into a productive rotation player in gibson, it's a wash in my book. as previously stated, thabo's in the perfect situation for him, where before the murky handling of the bulls guard situation hampered his development. i also agree that outside of being a bit more experienced due to court time, and the bulls got a semi-do over by bringing brewer in, who for the same limitations as thabo, is about to get dumped for lack of offensive ability.

kind of a step forward, step back thing going by the bulls.

kudos to him for persevering. heat in 7.

[kyrv]

As much as I used to post about the Bulls "developing" players, the truth is that nobody has left the Bulls and become a different player. Some have gotten a little better as they have played more and gained experience.

In fact there are more examples of players having their best years on the Bulls and doing varying levels of sucking afterwards, such as Curry, Kirkie, Benjamins.

Geting a #1 for Thabo was brilliant. Ditto JJ and Tyrus.

But waiting until Thabo has a really good playoff game and then complaining, well I guess that's in part what we do.

[aaqubed]

Big thing for Thabo is he went from a one way player here, to a true "Three and D" guy in the last two years on OKC, in the mold of Bruce Bowen.

If only Ronnie could do that.

When Harden gets his fat deal though, have to wonder if they will continue that rotation.

Eh, Thabo shot a great percentage from three this year, but on pretty low volume. And this was the only year he shot a decent percentage anyway. Maybe he's improved, but probably not _that_ much to the point where he's a legit threat. I'd think defenses would still rather give up a three for him than a driving lane for Westbrook/Durant/Harden.

[SpinninHouse]

As much as I used to post about the Bulls "developing" players, the truth is that nobody has left the Bulls and become a different player. Some have gotten a little better as they have played more and gained experience.
In fact there are more examples of players having their best years on the Bulls and doing varying levels of sucking afterwards, such as Curry, Kirkie, Benjamins.

Geting a #1 for Thabo was brilliant. Ditto JJ and Tyrus.

But waiting until Thabo has a really good playoff game and then complaining, well I guess that's in part what we do.

Very true. Excellent point. Tyrus Thomas and James Johnson are two great examples. Even going back further, with Eddy Curry and Jamal Crawford, as well. Crawford got better and a decent player, but he never turned into the All-Star caliber player that some predicted (myself included). Tyson Chandler become a high-impact player on defense, but he's by no means a guy you build around -- again, like some had predicted.

Nobody has left Chicago and become a world beater.

[jumpmanjay]

The Bulls just seem to not be able to use a lot of the talent they acquire, or at least the talent doesn't seem to perform under the pressure. Especially in comparison to a more sustainable organization like the Spurs.

One way that seems to define the emergence of championship teams is the emergence of role players at crucial moments: we hear all the time about how some scrub thrown out emerges on the Spurs. Horry, Bowen, Barry.

Other than Taj Gibson, we don't hear about the stepping up or emergence of random role players --- Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer haven't broken through yet, thought Kyle Korver was some kind of 4th quarter genius. They're at the very minimal comparable in talent to those guys above, but we haven't heard a peep out of them yet.

yes, our team sucks balls.

[kyrv]

The Bulls just seem to not be able to use a lot of the talent they acquire, or at least the talent doesn't seem to perform under the pressure. Especially in comparison to a more sustainable organization like the Spurs.

One way that seems to define the emergence of championship teams is the emergence of role players at crucial moments: we hear all the time about how some scrub thrown out emerges on the Spurs. Horry, Bowen, Barry.

Other than Taj Gibson, we don't hear about the stepping up or emergence of random role players --- Kyle Korver, Ronnie Brewer haven't broken through yet, thought Kyle Korver was some kind of 4th quarter genius. They're at the very minimal comparable in talent to those guys above, but we haven't heard a peep out of them yet.

yes, our team sucks balls.

They do suck and Korver has been awful in the 4th quarter.

[jumpmanjay]

They do suck and Korver has been awful in the 4th quarter.

4th quarter? try all quarters. and overtime. and in practice. and at shootaround. and in layup lines.

[Rerisen]

I thought Ronnie Brewer was already that,

Thabo doesn't miss many open threes any more. 44% This year.

Chicago TS% .500, OKC TS% .584.

Eh, Thabo shot a great percentage from three this year, but on pretty low volume.

Higher volume than Rip Hamilton per minute.

But yeah he doesn't shoot much, less there than here actually, but now you do actually have to keep a man on him, instead of just doubling Westbrook or Durant every time like people would be doing with Chicago Thabo, who just shot bricks.

This is actually the first season Thabo has even rated as a positive player by advanced plus/minus (last year about even), and I don't doubt him being able to actually hit a shot is a big reason.

He was always great on defense, just his limitations on offense were just as big or bigger to wipe that out.

[kyrv]

They do suck and Korver has been awful in the 4th quarter.

4th quarter? try all quarters. and overtime. and in practice. and at shootaround. and in layup lines.

Also the way he stirs his coffee just annoys the cr*p out of me.

[Rerisen]

Nobody has left Chicago and become a world beater.

Many even get worse. Eddy. Kirk, BG, Salmons. Duhon.

Skiles did have little choice but to rely on his guards though.

[ChicagoStrong]

I thought Ronnie Brewer was already that,

Thabo doesn't miss many open threes any more. 44% This year.

He was only 31-71.

[Rerisen]

He was only 31-71.

Well his volume is low because his minutes are.

He's not that far off Deng per 36 minutes.

Rip 2.4
Thabo 2.8
Deng 3.6

Don't think he'll hit 40%+ from here on out, but he should definitely be able to maintain around 35%. That's where he's at in the playoffs so far.

It's still plenty significant enough (for how the defense responds) compared against like Ronnie Brewer who just doesn't need to be guarded beyond 20 feet.

[jumpmanjay]

They do suck and Korver has been awful in the 4th quarter.

4th quarter? try all quarters. and overtime. and in practice. and at shootaround. and in layup lines.

Also the way he stirs his coffee just annoys the cr*p out of me.

dont get me started on his hair!

[kyrv]

Speaking of Thabo love after 1 out of 16 really good playoff games, what happened to the posts wondering why the Bulls can't get players like Danny Green?