board's kinda dead, let's talk about marshon

[Jersey Generals]

How are people forgetting the value of a player like Marshon on a cheap rooki contract? Are people not reading what other people actually write?

Most people have Marshon being traded with Petro for a draft pick...who would be on a rookie contract for a year longer. in other words, just a terrible argument.

[deepblueday]

it isn't a terrible argument at all. the late first rounder we acquire on that type of deal could very concievably end up never earning NBA minutes. whereas marshon at the very worst is a key rotation piece and potentially a legitimate starter.

[Jersey Generals]

That's not the argument being made, however. The argument is purely an economic one, with the cheap rookie contract aspect being emphasized.

Additionally, you people act like Marshon Brooks got playing time above other NBA-qaulity starters. HE DIDN'T. There isn't a single NBA starting quality 2 guard on the damn roster. Brooks got minutes simply because there was no one else, that's it.

[deepblueday]

kinda gave up on this thread because if theres just no common ground whatsoever, theres no real point continuing the argument but i guess ill make one more post. marshon doesn't dribble the ball for 14 seconds every time he touches it. he doesn't ignore his teammates. he doesn't only make good passes with 2 seconds left on the shot clock. he has some bad tendencies, many of which were exacerbated by our complete lack of structure or leadership. he also has rare offensive ability. yes, rare. im not a homer, but im not **** blind either, less than 5% of the league can make moves and shots like he can. hes patient, hes in control, and hes a legitimate creative player in the half court. and no, you dont just write that off as "well hes an iso player without superstar ability so his skills are useless." great offense comes when you have players who can pass, dribble, penetrate, and shoot playing in concert... marshon has all those skills in abundance, whether he can improve defensively and find himself shots off the play of others will determine if hes a starter or a creative option off the bench. most late first rounders end up as neither.

[deepblueday]

That's not the argument being made, however. The argument is purely an economic one, with the cheap rookie contract aspect being emphasized.

yes, the people above are arguing that its good to have players on rookie contracts regardless of their ability. the argument is (and clearly its based on a difference of opinion re marshons quality) that we know what he have in marshon, a good young player on a rookie deal. if we trade him for a first and draft another 2, we might not have a good player. if we mvoe him for a first and look to FA for a 2, we won't be paying virtually nothing.

[PetroNet]

it isn't a terrible argument at all. the late first rounder we acquire on that type of deal could very concievably end up never earning NBA minutes. whereas marshon at the very worst is a key rotation piece and potentially a legitimate starter.

you are looking at it backwards....

Marshon at best is a 8th or 9th man on an NBA contender who isnt far from his ceiling right now and is already 23.

a draft pick would at worst have his ceiling... hell even if the draft pick never played minute, it would be worth the risk, because the risk is getting someone who will never contribute towards contention... just like brooks now. the reward is getting a better player then brooks. and looking at the SG who will go in round 1, everyone seems like a lock to be better then brooks

[PetroNet]

kinda gave up on this thread because if theres just no common ground whatsoever, theres no real point continuing the argument but i guess ill make one more post. marshon doesn't dribble the ball for 14 seconds every time he touches it. he doesn't ignore his teammates. he doesn't only make good passes with 2 seconds left on the shot clock. he has some bad tendencies, many of which were exacerbated by our complete lack of structure or leadership. he also has rare offensive ability. yes, rare. im not a homer, but im not **** blind either, less than 5% of the league can make moves and shots like he can. hes patient, hes in control, and hes a legitimate creative player in the half court. and no, you dont just write that off as "well hes an iso player without superstar ability so his skills are useless." great offense comes when you have players who can pass, dribble, penetrate, and shoot playing in concert... marshon has all those skills in abundance, whether he can improve defensively and find himself shots off the play of others will determine if hes a starter or a creative option off the bench. most late first rounders end up as neither.

if you arent going to be rationale about it, then it isnt worth discussing. "less then 5% of the league can make moves and shots like he can" come on man... listen to yourself. almost every starting 2, and most gunners off the bench can do what he does. his athleticism is average and his skill is on par with what most startings 2's in this league can do. only some of those guys actually play defense and pass and play without the ball as well.

if he didnt play on a team with 0 offensive options he likely wouldnt have even seen the floor

[Preludepunk27]

I love MarShon. He compares his game to Jamal Crawford and I'm ok with that assessment. I think he has better court vision and less selfish, but I am totally cool with that. I feel in his prime, he can be the #2 or #3 scorer on whatever team he's on.

What I don't get about PetroNet's argument is that he wouldn't see the floor if he was on a different team. I feel that argument is moot. How many rookies played over 20 mpg last season for a playoff team? 3: Shumpert, Kawhi Leonard, and Faried. 10 rookies on playoff teams averages over 15 mpg. Point being, rookies don't play big minutes period. MOST don't see the floor if they're on a playoff team. Would MarShon's minutes decrease if he was on a playoff team? Yes, but to say he'd never see the floor is shortsighted and have a logical bias against him for some reason. He's a scorer that has a decent handle on the NBA level with and without the ball. You logic makes it sound line he's no better than Zoran Planinic. The guy had a good year for the messy rag tag group we had. Development is key though. He's got to work on some things this summer, but you have some odd opinions.

[jeff1624]

I love MarShon. He compares his game to Jamal Crawford and I'm ok with that assessment. I think he has better court vision and less selfish, but I am totally cool with that. I feel in his prime, he can be the #2 or #3 scorer on whatever team he's on.

What I don't get about PetroNet's argument is that he wouldn't see the floor if he was on a different team. I feel that argument is moot. How many rookies played over 20 mpg last season for a playoff team? 3: Shumpert, Kawhi Leonard, and Faried. 10 rookies on playoff teams averages over 15 mpg. Point being, rookies don't play big minutes period. MOST don't see the floor if they're on a playoff team. Would MarShon's minutes decrease if he was on a playoff team? Yes, but to say he'd never see the floor is shortsighted and have a logical bias against him for some reason. He's a scorer that has a decent handle on the NBA level with and without the ball. You logic makes it sound line he's no better than Zoran Planinic. The guy had a good year for the messy rag tag group we had. Development is key though. He's got to work on some things this summer, but you have some odd opinions.

I mostly agree with all of this, except for the part where you said he could be a #2 or #3. I think his ideal role would be as a bench guy that can come in and try to put up points while your main scorers are taking a breather. He could be VERY useful in those 5-10 minutes as the main option going against other bench players. Ideally he shouldn't play more than 25 minutes a night, but he isn't a 9th man.

Lets look at other 9th men in the league:

Heat: James Jones or Norris Cole
Thunder: Daequan Cook
Celtics: Keyon Dooling
Spurs: Danny Green or Gary Neal

Marshon Could and Should be a better player than any of those guys.

[Jersey Generals]

yes, the people above are arguing that its good to have players on rookie contracts regardless of their ability. the argument is (and clearly its based on a difference of opinion re marshons quality) that we know what he have in marshon, a good young player on a rookie deal. if we trade him for a first and draft another 2, we might not have a good player. if we mvoe him for a first and look to FA for a 2, we won't be paying virtually nothing.

Roll your arrogant eyes at me all you want, doesn't change the fact that I could make a better team with three more million in caproom and a first round pick than having Petro and Brooks on this team.

[Shaheen]

I'm afraid of a Marcus Williams type career.

[Preludepunk27]

Shaheen, not sure how you could say that when MarShon's first year was better than ANY of MWill's years in the NBA.

If his trajectory is like Jamal Crawford's only he doesn't develop a stupid ego, I'd be totally fine with it although I would hope he'd progress farther than that. But if all he ended up as was a solid 6th man scorer off the bench, that's fine with me. When you look at the SG's we've drafted over the last 20 years, that still makes him the 2nd best one we've drafted during that span haha (see: Kittles as #1).

[mlloyd10]

Monta Ellis for Brooks/future 1st

[vincecarter4pres]

Brooks wouldn't have seen the light of day on a contender.

That's what some are failing to admit.

On a team with quality swings in front of him, especially a good team, he would have seen like 10 minutes a game.

Most first round draft picks are very talented and from the wing it's easy to get medium inefficient numbers given a high usage rate and a ton of minutes. That doesn't make a good actual NBA player.

And his style is the style only at worst deadly 3rd options should have and truthfully I don't want anyone under an elite 2nd option on my team playing in the fashion and style he does.

You're not asking him to improve to get better, that's what people aren't realizing.

You're asking him to transform himself into a completely different style of player at an advanced age in comparison to his pro experience and skill level.

If he was old and just needed to improve on things he already does good and was kind of raw, then it's not as big a deal.

But he's a guy outside his prototypical 2 guard size and great length who already has an advanced skill set so to speak, but also has average at best athleticism, awful defense and lateral's/recovery speed and mediocre BBIQ matched with a style that you need to be unbelievably good to warrant being used enough to impact the game and f*** up the flow for others.

That's not a good spring board for a successful player.

Sure he could play a 6xth man role, but let's be real here, even a player like Lou Williams or even Crawful, they need to be in that role as well, but they aren't helping their teams much at all in all reality. That style is still hair pulling, they just can have some success there.